Level-headed people are not saying that Palestine shouldn’t fight back against the occupation, they’re just deriding the method they’re using. It’s hard to support a regime that kills civilians and children, even if they’re doing it in response to their civilians and children being killed. Two wrongs usually don’t make a right.
Now the question that I think is still rhetorical and whose answer people can’t agree upon is this: what is the appropriate response to apartheid and genocide? Many would agree that attacking the IDF, government officials etc. would constitute reasonable reactive force, however this is particularly difficult for Palestine due to Israel’s domination of the geography.
What should Hamas do that can expedite the end of apartheid and genocide? I don’t know. It’s a fucked situation. I feel deeply for the Palestinians, especially the almost 50% of them that are under the age of 18, and believe that they need to be liberated. I also feel deeply for Israeli citizens, many of whom didn’t vote for Netanyahu, who have been killed as a result of the Hamas incursion.
This issue is flooded with nuance that’s just going over many people’s heads.
If we had to spend our energy critiquing something, Palestinian resistance is the last thing you should critique. Their damage is miniscule compared to what Israel has done, and they’re still far more humane. At the very least, the operation’s target was military installations, encampments and officials. Israel’s target is civilians themselves.
This isn’t to deny that civilians died in crossfire or even needlessly killed. Hamas is not an organized state nor a hive mind, and after living their whole lives in a concentration camp, it’s a miracle that only a minority of their fighters engage in needless killing of civilians who were rave dancing at the gates of their concentration camp.
Can I critique it? Sure, I wish it didn’t happen. But I blame Israel for taking us this far. If it wasn’t for Israel, we wouldn’t have had so many people living in constant war and massacre their entire lives for hate to brew in their hearts. To live with either two choices: wait in suffocating conditions for your death to come, or resist.
We can walk and chew gum. We can critique Hamas AND the Israeli government / IDF. We can accept Israel’s responsibility in pushing the Palestinian people to desperation for survival through apartheid and genocide, and we can condemn Hamas’ killing of civilians. We can call for Israel to immediately ceasefire and we can call for Hamas to immediately ceasefire. We can feel for Palestinian civilians even as we feel for Israeli citizens.
This is not black and white; life rarely is. It’s steeped in nuance. That’s okay to talk about.
We can critique Hamas AND the Israeli government / IDF
I already addressed this argument above. If you think my argument wasn’t sufficient or there’s anything wrong with it, please address it directly. Otherwise, I don’t know what to tell you besides restate the same.
We can feel for Palestinian civilians even as we feel for Israeli citizens.
Absolutely. I hope you’re not implying that I said the opposite.
Palestinian resistance is the last thing you should critique
Here you’re conflating Hamas with all Palestinians and implying that Hamas’ actions are merely ‘Palestinian resistance’ which is just incorrect. Palestinian civilians should NOT be lumped in with their unelected (in the last 17 years) leaders, much as Jewish people should not be lumped in with Israel/their government. The majority of Palestinian citizens have never had an opportunity to vote for their leaders.
That point aside, the killing of civilians, whether intentional or through reckless disregard, should never be last on the list of condemnation. We can want Palestine to win their freedom and independence while criticising how Hamas is attempting to achieve that. We should be critiquing innocent slaughter wherever it exists and regardless of who is the perpetrator or victim.
I don’t really expect infallible behavior from an unorganized militia bred in a concentration camp, resisting genocide. Some of them may have committed needless murder of civilians, but I blame Israel for putting them in that position and leading them there to begin with.
Disagreeing with one side does not mean supporting the other.
Disagreeing with any force of resistance to apartheid is a support for apartheid, even if you don’t explicitly spell it out.
“man I sure hate the massacre, but don’t you dare fight back! That’s just as bad!”
Level-headed people are not saying that Palestine shouldn’t fight back against the occupation, they’re just deriding the method they’re using. It’s hard to support a regime that kills civilians and children, even if they’re doing it in response to their civilians and children being killed. Two wrongs usually don’t make a right.
Now the question that I think is still rhetorical and whose answer people can’t agree upon is this: what is the appropriate response to apartheid and genocide? Many would agree that attacking the IDF, government officials etc. would constitute reasonable reactive force, however this is particularly difficult for Palestine due to Israel’s domination of the geography.
What should Hamas do that can expedite the end of apartheid and genocide? I don’t know. It’s a fucked situation. I feel deeply for the Palestinians, especially the almost 50% of them that are under the age of 18, and believe that they need to be liberated. I also feel deeply for Israeli citizens, many of whom didn’t vote for Netanyahu, who have been killed as a result of the Hamas incursion.
This issue is flooded with nuance that’s just going over many people’s heads.
If we had to spend our energy critiquing something, Palestinian resistance is the last thing you should critique. Their damage is miniscule compared to what Israel has done, and they’re still far more humane. At the very least, the operation’s target was military installations, encampments and officials. Israel’s target is civilians themselves.
This isn’t to deny that civilians died in crossfire or even needlessly killed. Hamas is not an organized state nor a hive mind, and after living their whole lives in a concentration camp, it’s a miracle that only a minority of their fighters engage in needless killing of civilians who were rave dancing at the gates of their concentration camp.
Can I critique it? Sure, I wish it didn’t happen. But I blame Israel for taking us this far. If it wasn’t for Israel, we wouldn’t have had so many people living in constant war and massacre their entire lives for hate to brew in their hearts. To live with either two choices: wait in suffocating conditions for your death to come, or resist.
We can walk and chew gum. We can critique Hamas AND the Israeli government / IDF. We can accept Israel’s responsibility in pushing the Palestinian people to desperation for survival through apartheid and genocide, and we can condemn Hamas’ killing of civilians. We can call for Israel to immediately ceasefire and we can call for Hamas to immediately ceasefire. We can feel for Palestinian civilians even as we feel for Israeli citizens.
This is not black and white; life rarely is. It’s steeped in nuance. That’s okay to talk about.
I already addressed this argument above. If you think my argument wasn’t sufficient or there’s anything wrong with it, please address it directly. Otherwise, I don’t know what to tell you besides restate the same.
Absolutely. I hope you’re not implying that I said the opposite.
Here you’re conflating Hamas with all Palestinians and implying that Hamas’ actions are merely ‘Palestinian resistance’ which is just incorrect. Palestinian civilians should NOT be lumped in with their unelected (in the last 17 years) leaders, much as Jewish people should not be lumped in with Israel/their government. The majority of Palestinian citizens have never had an opportunity to vote for their leaders.
That point aside, the killing of civilians, whether intentional or through reckless disregard, should never be last on the list of condemnation. We can want Palestine to win their freedom and independence while criticising how Hamas is attempting to achieve that. We should be critiquing innocent slaughter wherever it exists and regardless of who is the perpetrator or victim.
This is how critique and nuance dies
You’ve failed to show any reasonable nuance. Saying “actually resistance massacre is also bad” is not nuance.
Do you think Hamas’s attack can be critiqued? Can it be both partially justified and executed immorality?
I don’t really expect infallible behavior from an unorganized militia bred in a concentration camp, resisting genocide. Some of them may have committed needless murder of civilians, but I blame Israel for putting them in that position and leading them there to begin with.
So we can critique the needless violence? Is it just the leadership who is unassailable?
If you’ve spent the last decades condemning the 1000x murder, brutality and ethnic cleansing done by Israel, then yes.
I’m condemning the current blockade meant to starve everyone out.
But why does what we’ve said in the past effect whether what they’re doing right now is right or wrong? Or if it is wrong, why can’t we say it?