I doubt that you will be swayed by facts, but just for the record: in 2000 Israel offered Hamas to become a fully sovereign nation on 100% of Gaza’s territory (and 95% of the West Bank) with East Jerusalem as their capital. Hamas declined. In 2005 Israel voluntarily disengaged from Gaza and enabled self-rule, hoping this would be a step towards peace. It wasn’t. In 2011 there was another offer for a “two states for two peoples” solution, Hamas once again rejected it.
None of this is surprising since the Hamas is a fanatic Muslim group following the most militant tenets of Islam. Their publicly-stated charter is to utterly destroy Israel (“drive the jews into the sea”) and create a Muslim nation on the entire area of Palestine. So anything less than that is a non-starter. Any Jew left alive in Israel means that they haven’t finished yet.
Note that there’s nothing in the charter about the Palestinian people - The Hamas takes no civic or sovereign responsibility for the population which they govern. In other words, Hamas sees the Palestinian people as a consumable resource in their fight to bring Islam to 100% of the territory historically referred to as “Palestine”. So building tunnels under schools and hospitals is allowed. Diverting humanitarian aid to the military infrastructure while the population starves is fine. Indoctrinating children from kindergarten about the glory of killing Jews is standard procedure. etc. Using the Gaza residents as human shields is valuable both for reducing Hamas casualties as well as increasing collateral damage which makes Israel “look bad” in the international community.
Compromise is difficult because when negotiating with someone who wants you dead, how do you meet them halfway ?
Compromise is difficult because when negotiating with someone who wants you dead, how do you meet them halfway ?
And it’s coincidental that Israeli territory keeps expanding, with settlements and music festivals right on the creeping border. And starvation has nothing to do with their blockade. And no schools or hospitals were shattered into gravel ‘because Hamas was there’ - they only do that to people’s homes.
Incorrect about the Israeli territory expansion - Gaza borders have not changed since 2005 at least. That is definitely an huge issue of contention in the west bank (I totally agree that Israel is out of line there, although many of the activities are in the gray area due to various legal issues complicating the land ownership definitions). The “creeping” settlements have all been there (same location and size) for 50 years or more. For example, Re’em (the kibbutz that hosted the music festival) was founded in 1949.
And it’s well documented that Hamas fires rockets from public buildings:
And yet another genius thinks it’s gotta be either/or. You can blame them both. Two war crimes don’t make a right. Firing rockets is bad, actually - but so is blowing up the entire god-damn apartment building, because someone fired rockets from it.
This should not have to be explained to any sane adult.
You could not miss the point harder if you tried. You are not capable. You’d have to care what words mean, instead of just going ‘oh yeah well you must be excusing other bad thing!’ No, genius. I am explaining how the Israeli side is also pretty goddamn far from innocent.
Who gives a fuck whose land it’s on? They’re civilians, Hamas has NO reason or justification for attacking a music festival it holds no military or strategic value. Those civilians didn’t bomb Palestinians. They aren’t the people pushing expansion. They’re just fucking civilians, and if you’re going to say one side killing civilians, even accidentally, is bad, you HAVE to condemn the other side for willingly attacking a civilian gathering.
Very valuable addition to the conversation, call out a bit in a post made still groggy from waking up instead of actually addressing the argument. GOTTEEEEEEM I fuckin guess.
Get back to me when you want to address the point.
If you didn’t read what you’re replying to, in the first place, how would more words help?
You’d have to care what words mean, instead of just going ‘oh yeah well you must be excusing other bad thing!’
No, genius. I am explaining how the Israeli side is also pretty goddamn far from innocent.
Yet here you were, coming in hot to say ‘how dare you defend the side you’re also condemning.’ I can’t have an argument in the absence of object permanence.
Why agree to this “compromise” when Israel violated the previous one?
Drive the vast majority of a population from their homes, and to a tiny strip of their former homeland, then “generously” offer them to just remain there in their little concentration camp. And not even guaranteed, given Israel’s history. Gee, I wonder why they rejected?
It’s not surprising that this is what occupiers think is “compromise”.
If you know enough history to be familiar with the “previous ones” then you know that that they could have gotten half of Israel’s territory in 1947 but instead they (the Arab nations) preferred to go to war to take it all. And they failed. And then again in 68, same story. BTW Israel has repeatedly offered to transfer control of Gaza to Egypt, the Egyptians have no interest in helping them out in any way. It’s more expedient for all the Arab world that Gaza remains a festering sore in Israel’s side - of course at the expense of the poor Palestinians who are stuck there. Even now, Egypt is unwilling to open it’s border for Palestinians who wish to flee the area. But it’s obviously more fashionable to blame Israel for creating a “concentration camp” even after all of that. No-other country in the region is willing to lift a finger to help them, yet you expect the most from the country which Gaza has sworn to destroy and attacks at every opportunity?
Go further back, even. The UN Partition Plan for Palestine in 1947 would have given Palestine its own territory, splitting it with Israel 45/55. The Arab League and Arab Higher Committee of Palestine both rejected it.
It’s not like compromises have never been offered. The Arabs have simply never been willing to accept anything less than the expulsion of the Jews from the territory.
From their perspective, someone just moved into their house one day and when they objected they said “let’s compromise, you can keep half of the house.” No wonder they rejected that compromise.
Unfortunately we’re now a couple of generations past that initial event so it’s a lot more complicated at this point.
Correct me if I’m wrong here, but I don’t think they “just moved in”. They’ve lived there for a long time as well, but the former country of Palestine was quite divided ethnically, and that caused issues due to extremists (on both sides).
The purpose of splitting Palestine was to get two countries that were at least less divided ethnically, but due to where people lived Israel still remained quite evenly divided between muslims and jews whereas the new Palestine was close to 100% muslims.
Countries have been split all over the world before in somewhat similar manners without causing as big conflicts, showing that this could’ve been done in a peaceful manner. What went wrong here? I don’t know.
At this rate they shall soon have no house at all. Constant terror attacks against an undefeatable enemy and an unwillingness to compromise will ensure it.
Just an addendum, the partition is based on the previous split of Transjordan Palestine after ww1, where there was a 80/20 split for the Arabs. With the Israeli getting most of Palestine.
Regardless, they have multiple times rejected concessions and compromises that would have enabled them to have an independent democratic nation. If that’s truly what they wanted, why would they always pass on the opportunity to get it without bloodshed?
I doubt that you will be swayed by facts, but just for the record: in 2000 Israel offered Hamas to become a fully sovereign nation on 100% of Gaza’s territory (and 95% of the West Bank) with East Jerusalem as their capital. Hamas declined. In 2005 Israel voluntarily disengaged from Gaza and enabled self-rule, hoping this would be a step towards peace. It wasn’t. In 2011 there was another offer for a “two states for two peoples” solution, Hamas once again rejected it.
None of this is surprising since the Hamas is a fanatic Muslim group following the most militant tenets of Islam. Their publicly-stated charter is to utterly destroy Israel (“drive the jews into the sea”) and create a Muslim nation on the entire area of Palestine. So anything less than that is a non-starter. Any Jew left alive in Israel means that they haven’t finished yet.
Note that there’s nothing in the charter about the Palestinian people - The Hamas takes no civic or sovereign responsibility for the population which they govern. In other words, Hamas sees the Palestinian people as a consumable resource in their fight to bring Islam to 100% of the territory historically referred to as “Palestine”. So building tunnels under schools and hospitals is allowed. Diverting humanitarian aid to the military infrastructure while the population starves is fine. Indoctrinating children from kindergarten about the glory of killing Jews is standard procedure. etc. Using the Gaza residents as human shields is valuable both for reducing Hamas casualties as well as increasing collateral damage which makes Israel “look bad” in the international community.
Compromise is difficult because when negotiating with someone who wants you dead, how do you meet them halfway ?
And it’s coincidental that Israeli territory keeps expanding, with settlements and music festivals right on the creeping border. And starvation has nothing to do with their blockade. And no schools or hospitals were shattered into gravel ‘because Hamas was there’ - they only do that to people’s homes.
Incorrect about the Israeli territory expansion - Gaza borders have not changed since 2005 at least. That is definitely an huge issue of contention in the west bank (I totally agree that Israel is out of line there, although many of the activities are in the gray area due to various legal issues complicating the land ownership definitions). The “creeping” settlements have all been there (same location and size) for 50 years or more. For example, Re’em (the kibbutz that hosted the music festival) was founded in 1949.
And it’s well documented that Hamas fires rockets from public buildings:
Also, you put “music festivals” in italics as though that is some extreme example of… what?
Since 2005! Basically forever!
And yet another genius thinks it’s gotta be either/or. You can blame them both. Two war crimes don’t make a right. Firing rockets is bad, actually - but so is blowing up the entire god-damn apartment building, because someone fired rockets from it.
This should not have to be explained to any sane adult.
Oh no not music festivals! Better murder hundreds of EDM kids and rape some next to their dead friends for having the audacity to have a peace and love dancing experience near Gaza.
“Near Gaza” meaning “on stolen land.”
You could not miss the point harder if you tried. You are not capable. You’d have to care what words mean, instead of just going ‘oh yeah well you must be excusing other bad thing!’ No, genius. I am explaining how the Israeli side is also pretty goddamn far from innocent.
Who gives a fuck whose land it’s on? They’re civilians, Hamas has NO reason or justification for attacking a music festival it holds no military or strategic value. Those civilians didn’t bomb Palestinians. They aren’t the people pushing expansion. They’re just fucking civilians, and if you’re going to say one side killing civilians, even accidentally, is bad, you HAVE to condemn the other side for willingly attacking a civilian gathering.
Do you speak English?
I try not to.
Very valuable addition to the conversation, call out a bit in a post made still groggy from waking up instead of actually addressing the argument. GOTTEEEEEEM I fuckin guess.
Get back to me when you want to address the point.
If you didn’t read what you’re replying to, in the first place, how would more words help?
Yet here you were, coming in hot to say ‘how dare you defend the side you’re also condemning.’ I can’t have an argument in the absence of object permanence.
Why agree to this “compromise” when Israel violated the previous one?
Drive the vast majority of a population from their homes, and to a tiny strip of their former homeland, then “generously” offer them to just remain there in their little concentration camp. And not even guaranteed, given Israel’s history. Gee, I wonder why they rejected?
It’s not surprising that this is what occupiers think is “compromise”.
If you know enough history to be familiar with the “previous ones” then you know that that they could have gotten half of Israel’s territory in 1947 but instead they (the Arab nations) preferred to go to war to take it all. And they failed. And then again in 68, same story. BTW Israel has repeatedly offered to transfer control of Gaza to Egypt, the Egyptians have no interest in helping them out in any way. It’s more expedient for all the Arab world that Gaza remains a festering sore in Israel’s side - of course at the expense of the poor Palestinians who are stuck there. Even now, Egypt is unwilling to open it’s border for Palestinians who wish to flee the area. But it’s obviously more fashionable to blame Israel for creating a “concentration camp” even after all of that. No-other country in the region is willing to lift a finger to help them, yet you expect the most from the country which Gaza has sworn to destroy and attacks at every opportunity?
Go further back, even. The UN Partition Plan for Palestine in 1947 would have given Palestine its own territory, splitting it with Israel 45/55. The Arab League and Arab Higher Committee of Palestine both rejected it.
It’s not like compromises have never been offered. The Arabs have simply never been willing to accept anything less than the expulsion of the Jews from the territory.
From their perspective, someone just moved into their house one day and when they objected they said “let’s compromise, you can keep half of the house.” No wonder they rejected that compromise.
Unfortunately we’re now a couple of generations past that initial event so it’s a lot more complicated at this point.
Interestingly, in the US, if you’ve been somewhere for 20 years, it’s yours.
https://www.illinoislegalaid.org/legal-information/becoming-owner-property-using-it-long-time#:~:text=If the true owner doesn,an action to regain possession."
With a number of important caveats. Most notably:
You can’t just “run out the clock” while the original owner is actively disputing your ownership of that land.
Also note that this law is for Illinois, not for the US as a whole. It varies from state to state.
Correct me if I’m wrong here, but I don’t think they “just moved in”. They’ve lived there for a long time as well, but the former country of Palestine was quite divided ethnically, and that caused issues due to extremists (on both sides).
The purpose of splitting Palestine was to get two countries that were at least less divided ethnically, but due to where people lived Israel still remained quite evenly divided between muslims and jews whereas the new Palestine was close to 100% muslims.
Countries have been split all over the world before in somewhat similar manners without causing as big conflicts, showing that this could’ve been done in a peaceful manner. What went wrong here? I don’t know.
At this rate they shall soon have no house at all. Constant terror attacks against an undefeatable enemy and an unwillingness to compromise will ensure it.
Just an addendum, the partition is based on the previous split of Transjordan Palestine after ww1, where there was a 80/20 split for the Arabs. With the Israeli getting most of Palestine.
Palestinians are not saying to expel Jews. They are saying to remove the ethnoreligious state, not the Jews themselves.
This was reiterated countless of times. They seek a Democratic state where Jews and non jews can be equal.
Sorry, I was wrong. They want to “obliterate” the Jews, not expel them. When talking about genocide, it’s important to specify the correct flavor.
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
Regardless, they have multiple times rejected concessions and compromises that would have enabled them to have an independent democratic nation. If that’s truly what they wanted, why would they always pass on the opportunity to get it without bloodshed?
Thanks for the info. A source for the offer of soverenty would be great if you have one on hand. I don’t trust people too much on this subject.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli–Palestinian_peace_process - it’s pretty long, sorry. Lots of history, lots of failed negotiations