I think there are four factors at play here. They’re mixed together in an extremely messy fashion and overlap quite a bit, but they are:
The people on both sides fear for their safety. The Palestinians fear the Israeli government and military taking action against them. The Israeli people fear rocket attacks and raids like the one that just happened. When a populace lives in fear, it leads to -
Extremist groups are in charge. You have Hamas on one side whose stated goal is to kill all Jews. (Not just in Israel, but across the world.) You have the right wing Israeli government on the other side who push for horrible actions against the Palestinians in the name of “safety.”
Foreign interference. Iran on one side is arming/helping Hamas. On the other side, evangelical Christians help the settlers and push the Israeli government because they think Jesus will come back if Israel suffers a big enough attack. (Peace would prevent that attack and stop Jesus from returning.)
A long and bloody history. Both sides remember when they were killed by the other side. Both sides refuse to leave the past in the past and intend on making the other side pay. The problem here is that the cycle of violence never breaks. If you always have to attack because “they did X to us” then they will feel like they always need to attack because you did Y to them. It goes around and around and never changes no matter how much everyone suffers.
How do you untangle this mess? If I knew that, I’d have the Nobel Peace Prize. I wish I did know. I’d set the peace prize aside in a second, tell the world what to do, and stop it all. Unfortunately, I’m no diplomat. (Some of the best diplomats have failed in this arena.) I can see what’s going on, but I have no clue how to stop it.
The best I can think of is that perhaps UN security forces need to move in. Not to attack one side or another, but to keep both sides away from each other. Sort of like the national version of putting two kids who were fighting in time out until things cool down. But again, I’m no diplomat so for all I know that would make things worse.
They are not. Israel is an apartheid state. Palestinians are legally deprived of human rights and restricted to ghettos. Hamas is merely an extremist group that offers Palestinians something, even if its something they cannot deliver on and have no legitimate means of achieving. Palestinians have been massacred by Israel since its inception. Israelis have occasionally died in comparatively small numbers from Hamas attacks. Hamas is not Palestine though. And hamas has no legal power within the Israeli state. The Israeli state is entirely responsible for the current state of affairs and for the ongoing violence.
Palestinians have no state. They have no home. They are kept in ghettos. They are currently facing one of the largest humanitarian crises of the 21st century. The Israeli state could stop it all tomorrow. They could stop it all right now. Unconditionally grant equal citizenship to all Palestinians, return them their homes, give them 50% representation in the Israeli government, and formally condemn the racism and genocidal rhetoric of the Netanyahu administration and the many war crimes committed both by him and the IDF and the Israeli police force.
Its entirely up to Israel. Palestinians can do none of these things. Their only available recourse is extremism.
I agree with one caveat: the Palestinians can help themselves the same way India, South Africa, and other colonial peoples have. Non-violent resistance gets really good results in democracies. It’s not easy, but it’s less dangerous than attacking a modern military.
The hardest step is getting rid of Hamas, which is more like a mafia than a government. They’re more interested in keeping their power and position with help from Iran. In South Africa, Nelson Mandela was a violent terrorist before he turned to 100% non-violence.
Here’s an interesting article that no one will read:
I agree with one caveat: the Palestinians can help themselves the same way India, South Africa, and other colonial peoples have. Non-violent resistance gets really good results in democracies.
They tried. They tried a lot (well the first intifada also had a violent element but yk). The result was the Oslo accords, which were almost there until the then-PM was assassinated and Netenyahu who succeeded him just called the whole thing off. Since you mentioned India, the situation in Palestine is more like the troubles in Northern Ireland. You need people who actually care about human rights (many Israelis do, but enough don’t that Netenyahu was/has been PM for a total of 16+ years).
The hardest step is getting rid of Hamas, which is more like a mafia than a government.
Hamas aren’t actually 100% opposed to peace. They’ve already made three good faith efforts (2008 ceasefire, 2012 ceasefire, 2012-2013 united government), but in all three Israel actively rejected peace.
Edit: I know it’s weird that a terrorist organization is being the (slightly) reasonable side here, but yeah the fact that the conflict went on for so long is on Israel’s far-right party and Netenyahu specifically for rejecting peace time and time again. As soon as peace comes Hamas will either mellow out into an Islamist government or die off.
I can only think to part of a response Orwell had for pacifists:
I am not interested in pacifism as a ‘moral phenomenon’. If Mr Savage and others imagine that one can somehow ‘overcome’ the German army by lying on one’s back, let them go on imagining it, but let them also wonder occasionally whether this is not an illusion due to security, too much money and a simple ignorance of the way in which things actually happen. As an ex-Indian civil servant, it always makes me shout with laughter to hear, for instance, Gandhi named as an example of the success of non-violence. As long as twenty years ago it was cynically admitted in Anglo-Indian circles that Gandhi was very useful to the British government. So he will be to the Japanese if they get there. Despotic governments can stand ‘moral force’ till the cows come home; what they fear is physical force.
Despotic governments can stand ‘moral force’ till the cows come home; what they fear is physical force.
That’s why I said democracies are vulnerable to non-violent resistance.
Democracies, like Israel, are the opposite of authoritarian governments. Developed democracies can withstand all the force you send at them because they rule with the consent of the governed and have much larger resources at their disposal.
They are more vulnerable to soft power. Hamas already has broadcast abilities. They should literally get rid of most weapons, and start broadcasting 24/7 about the hardships of living in the West Bank and Gaza. They have an unlimited amount of ammo because Israel genuinely makes people’s lives terrible.
just because a place calls its self or even is a democracy doesn’t mean it can’t be despotic.
there is no inherent “democracy is not despotic” we have seen plenty of despotic democratic governments, almost all of them only toppled due to outside influence.
and a side point Democracies aren’t more resistant to force, they are just a little less likely to collapse due to a general trust in the standing government, nothing to do with resources.
Doesn’t help when most of the “offers” they get are basically, “you give up at least half of your land (including most of the Mediterranean Coast) and in return, we’ll stop genociding you.”
You are so delusional about this situation that you think somehow a one state solution could work at this point. A two state solution is the only answer but unfortunately the leadership on both sides right now would never let that happen and the leadership on one side in particular (Hamas) is set on full extermination of the other party.
Hamas is an extremist group, they are only considered a reasonable thing to support because Palestinians do not have human rights and are confined to ghettos. One party in this situation is actively genociding the other, and quite understandably Palestinians are more inclined to listen to extremists than the Israeli state genociding them. Israel has actively sabotaged every single attempt at negotiations since the mid 90s. Netanyahu can be thanked for that. Him and the racists who support him.
Hamas is nothing if Palestinians had rights. Palestinians are just people, they are not an army they are not a militia. They deserve human rights. Israel could do that today. They deserve their homes back. Israel could do that today. Hamas has nothing to do with it. There’s never an excuse to deprive a race of people their rights and freedoms. Genocide is never acceptable. Apartheid is never acceptable.
The Palestinians in Gaza, at this point, can’t choose to vote Hamas out of office if they wanted to. Hamas won with a plurality (not a majority) in 2006 and has cancelled all future elections. They’ve used aid meant to support the Palestinian people to make rockets to attack Israel. There’s no trust in the Israeli side that Hamas would stick to their word. Netenyahu needs to go, but so does Hamas.
Hamas cannot change the apartheid state. They have tried repeatedly since the mid 90s and every time America and Israel have sabotaged negotiations and refused to give Palestinians equal rights.
Hamas was elected once and there have been no elections since. They also have no actual political power in Israel so it doesn’t really make a difference who is elected. Netanyahu wants to commit genocide, he has no interest in changing anything.
I never said Israeli citizens were the Israeli state. The Israeli state is in fact a state. That state has legal power over all Palestinians. That state is denying Palestinians human rights. That state is orchestrating an attempt at genocide.
They colonize but everyone fights back. That’s precisely my point. It’s normal and natural to fight back against that. It’s delusional to think it’s not.
Not to simplify your points and overall message because I really appreciate your words and thoughts, but game theory would do a lot to explain point 4 pretty tidily. The fucked up thing about that, though is that the hate and division is so entrenched that the fact that these people have to deal with one another all the time, has no effect in how they treat each other.
Then again, this gets into some anthropological territory of how culture begats culture, and a culture of violence can never be anything else (me adlibbing here on theoretical anthro), but I digress… The people that perpetrate the attacks are so far removed from the rank and file and every day experiences, and have so much to gain from continuing it, that why on Earth would they stop? To rational and reasonable people, it seems absurd, but so does how the Fossil Fuel industry persists in plunging us into extinction, so it all bears out, if you ask me.
I completely agree. Hamas’ leadership isn’t based in Gaza. Attacks on Gaza don’t affect them because they’re living in luxury (in Qatar IIRC). Meanwhile, they’ve cancelled all elections so the Palestinians can’t just choose a new government.
And this applies to the outside influence as well. Iranians and evangelical Christians don’t need to live with the chaos they help to thrive. They get to sit back, thousands of miles away, safe from any consequences. Since they don’t suffer any consequences, why would they stop? And if they don’t stop, it makes it that much harder to achieve peace.
That’s definitely a start. Unfortunately, just swapping Netenyahu out with someone less extreme wouldn’t get Hamas to stop their attacks. It wouldn’t cause the people on both sides to feel safe enough to trust in a peace process and to forgive past actions.
There are a lot of factors in play and the solution to this, if there is one, is going to be very complicated and difficult to achieve. It will be worth it, but it won’t be easy.
That’s definitely a start. Unfortunately, just swapping Netenyahu out with someone less extreme wouldn’t get Hamas to stop their attacks.
I mean Hamas already agreed to stop their attacks in ceasefires before (see: 2008 and 2012 ceasefires). It was then Netenyahu who didn’t lift the blockade, therefore not holding Israel’s end of the agreements. It was also Netenyahu who stopped the peace process in 1995 because he’s Netenyahu.
This is what I meant by just needs someone who isn’t Netenyahu. Hamas has proven that they’re willing to engage in dialogue, despite what’s written in their charter. It’s Netenyahu who doesn’t want that, so he’s basically acting as a barrier between both sides and peace.
You are defending a group who as part of their founding charter calls for the extermination of all Jews on earth not just in Israel. You are at best wildly ignorant on this subject if not dishonest.
You would also need someone on the Palestinian side that the Israelis would trust to keep their word and not attack. That trust just isn’t there and will be difficult to rebuild.
I’m not completely disagreeing with you. The illegal settlements need to go. I’d like to see any illegal settlements responded to by having a special group of Israeli police, working with Palestinian authorities and not just moving in on their own, arresting the settlers instead of the military moving in to protect them.
There’s also the outside influence to consider. Evangelical Christians love the settlers. They help them and any politicians who would protect them. They’d work against a politician who promised to arrest them.
There are a lot of factors in play and the solution won’t be an easy one.
My bad for my tone. I was tired and didn’t noticed how sassy I came off.
I don’t think my suggestion will ever happen, but I think it’s what needs to happen.
I don’t think Palestinians would trust IDF soldiers to be escorts to be honest, but I suppose white police/soldiers played a role in integration in the US.
As far as implementing solutions, I think the Palestinians should decide that for themselves. I don’t think the international community will allow that for MANY reasons, Christians being just one. And until we can stop the ethnic cleansing policy from its current implementation, there is no room to even try anything.
But yes, the evangelical Christian relationship with Israel is VERY different than the relationship of Israel to Jews. I understand the propaganda I see in the Jewish community, and I understand how it’s harder to see this issue clearly when you’re more likely to have family members, friends, and memories made in a region.
Christian fantasize about Israel being theirs or seeing themselves as the true Israel already, and that it’s a metaphor for them and not Jews.
that’s not even getting into how all the neighboring countries feel and how all their allies and enemies feel. It’s a lot.
UN created this quagmire so let them sort it. Reset borders to the original plan, Jerusalem becomes its own city state, administered by the UN. It will anger everyone but let the UN take responsibility and clean up the mess they made (sort of).
I think there are four factors at play here. They’re mixed together in an extremely messy fashion and overlap quite a bit, but they are:
The people on both sides fear for their safety. The Palestinians fear the Israeli government and military taking action against them. The Israeli people fear rocket attacks and raids like the one that just happened. When a populace lives in fear, it leads to -
Extremist groups are in charge. You have Hamas on one side whose stated goal is to kill all Jews. (Not just in Israel, but across the world.) You have the right wing Israeli government on the other side who push for horrible actions against the Palestinians in the name of “safety.”
Foreign interference. Iran on one side is arming/helping Hamas. On the other side, evangelical Christians help the settlers and push the Israeli government because they think Jesus will come back if Israel suffers a big enough attack. (Peace would prevent that attack and stop Jesus from returning.)
A long and bloody history. Both sides remember when they were killed by the other side. Both sides refuse to leave the past in the past and intend on making the other side pay. The problem here is that the cycle of violence never breaks. If you always have to attack because “they did X to us” then they will feel like they always need to attack because you did Y to them. It goes around and around and never changes no matter how much everyone suffers.
How do you untangle this mess? If I knew that, I’d have the Nobel Peace Prize. I wish I did know. I’d set the peace prize aside in a second, tell the world what to do, and stop it all. Unfortunately, I’m no diplomat. (Some of the best diplomats have failed in this arena.) I can see what’s going on, but I have no clue how to stop it.
The best I can think of is that perhaps UN security forces need to move in. Not to attack one side or another, but to keep both sides away from each other. Sort of like the national version of putting two kids who were fighting in time out until things cool down. But again, I’m no diplomat so for all I know that would make things worse.
You act as though both sides are equivalent.
They are not. Israel is an apartheid state. Palestinians are legally deprived of human rights and restricted to ghettos. Hamas is merely an extremist group that offers Palestinians something, even if its something they cannot deliver on and have no legitimate means of achieving. Palestinians have been massacred by Israel since its inception. Israelis have occasionally died in comparatively small numbers from Hamas attacks. Hamas is not Palestine though. And hamas has no legal power within the Israeli state. The Israeli state is entirely responsible for the current state of affairs and for the ongoing violence.
Palestinians have no state. They have no home. They are kept in ghettos. They are currently facing one of the largest humanitarian crises of the 21st century. The Israeli state could stop it all tomorrow. They could stop it all right now. Unconditionally grant equal citizenship to all Palestinians, return them their homes, give them 50% representation in the Israeli government, and formally condemn the racism and genocidal rhetoric of the Netanyahu administration and the many war crimes committed both by him and the IDF and the Israeli police force.
Its entirely up to Israel. Palestinians can do none of these things. Their only available recourse is extremism.
I agree with one caveat: the Palestinians can help themselves the same way India, South Africa, and other colonial peoples have. Non-violent resistance gets really good results in democracies. It’s not easy, but it’s less dangerous than attacking a modern military.
The hardest step is getting rid of Hamas, which is more like a mafia than a government. They’re more interested in keeping their power and position with help from Iran. In South Africa, Nelson Mandela was a violent terrorist before he turned to 100% non-violence.
Here’s an interesting article that no one will read:
https://time.com/5338569/nelson-mandela-terror-list/
They tried. They tried a lot (well the first intifada also had a violent element but yk). The result was the Oslo accords, which were almost there until the then-PM was assassinated and Netenyahu who succeeded him just called the whole thing off. Since you mentioned India, the situation in Palestine is more like the troubles in Northern Ireland. You need people who actually care about human rights (many Israelis do, but enough don’t that Netenyahu was/has been PM for a total of 16+ years).
Hamas aren’t actually 100% opposed to peace. They’ve already made three good faith efforts (2008 ceasefire, 2012 ceasefire, 2012-2013 united government), but in all three Israel actively rejected peace.
Edit: I know it’s weird that a terrorist organization is being the (slightly) reasonable side here, but yeah the fact that the conflict went on for so long is on Israel’s far-right party and Netenyahu specifically for rejecting peace time and time again. As soon as peace comes Hamas will either mellow out into an Islamist government or die off.
deleted by creator
I can only think to part of a response Orwell had for pacifists:
Yeah, that’s correct:
That’s why I said democracies are vulnerable to non-violent resistance.
Democracies, like Israel, are the opposite of authoritarian governments. Developed democracies can withstand all the force you send at them because they rule with the consent of the governed and have much larger resources at their disposal.
They are more vulnerable to soft power. Hamas already has broadcast abilities. They should literally get rid of most weapons, and start broadcasting 24/7 about the hardships of living in the West Bank and Gaza. They have an unlimited amount of ammo because Israel genuinely makes people’s lives terrible.
just because a place calls its self or even is a democracy doesn’t mean it can’t be despotic.
there is no inherent “democracy is not despotic” we have seen plenty of despotic democratic governments, almost all of them only toppled due to outside influence.
and a side point Democracies aren’t more resistant to force, they are just a little less likely to collapse due to a general trust in the standing government, nothing to do with resources.
THEY’VE TRIED.
Doesn’t help when most of the “offers” they get are basically, “you give up at least half of your land (including most of the Mediterranean Coast) and in return, we’ll stop genociding you.”
And those are the “good” offers.
You are so delusional about this situation that you think somehow a one state solution could work at this point. A two state solution is the only answer but unfortunately the leadership on both sides right now would never let that happen and the leadership on one side in particular (Hamas) is set on full extermination of the other party.
Hamas is an extremist group, they are only considered a reasonable thing to support because Palestinians do not have human rights and are confined to ghettos. One party in this situation is actively genociding the other, and quite understandably Palestinians are more inclined to listen to extremists than the Israeli state genociding them. Israel has actively sabotaged every single attempt at negotiations since the mid 90s. Netanyahu can be thanked for that. Him and the racists who support him.
Hamas is nothing if Palestinians had rights. Palestinians are just people, they are not an army they are not a militia. They deserve human rights. Israel could do that today. They deserve their homes back. Israel could do that today. Hamas has nothing to do with it. There’s never an excuse to deprive a race of people their rights and freedoms. Genocide is never acceptable. Apartheid is never acceptable.
The Palestinians in Gaza, at this point, can’t choose to vote Hamas out of office if they wanted to. Hamas won with a plurality (not a majority) in 2006 and has cancelled all future elections. They’ve used aid meant to support the Palestinian people to make rockets to attack Israel. There’s no trust in the Israeli side that Hamas would stick to their word. Netenyahu needs to go, but so does Hamas.
Well said. I can’t believe I found another person on here with a reasonable take.
Who elected Hamas? It’s interesting you say Palestinians have no other choice. Who governs the Palestinians in the West Bank?
Hamas cannot change the apartheid state. They have tried repeatedly since the mid 90s and every time America and Israel have sabotaged negotiations and refused to give Palestinians equal rights.
Hamas was elected once and there have been no elections since. They also have no actual political power in Israel so it doesn’t really make a difference who is elected. Netanyahu wants to commit genocide, he has no interest in changing anything.
Just so I understand your argument - Palestinians are not Hamas but Israel IS Likud.
How many Palestinians have been protesting globally against Hamas? How many hundreds of thousands of Israelis have been protesting against Likud?
I never said Israeli citizens were the Israeli state. The Israeli state is in fact a state. That state has legal power over all Palestinians. That state is denying Palestinians human rights. That state is orchestrating an attempt at genocide.
If Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians why is the population of Palestinians growing exponentially?
The delusional thing is Britain thinking they could displace 750,000 to create a country out of nowhere and expect the indigenous to silently die off.
They’d done it so many times before without repercussions… Lol
They colonize but everyone fights back. That’s precisely my point. It’s normal and natural to fight back against that. It’s delusional to think it’s not.
No disagreement here
I wouldn’t wish that on you. Former Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin won the Nobel in 1994, and was assassinated for it the following year.
Not to simplify your points and overall message because I really appreciate your words and thoughts, but game theory would do a lot to explain point 4 pretty tidily. The fucked up thing about that, though is that the hate and division is so entrenched that the fact that these people have to deal with one another all the time, has no effect in how they treat each other.
Then again, this gets into some anthropological territory of how culture begats culture, and a culture of violence can never be anything else (me adlibbing here on theoretical anthro), but I digress… The people that perpetrate the attacks are so far removed from the rank and file and every day experiences, and have so much to gain from continuing it, that why on Earth would they stop? To rational and reasonable people, it seems absurd, but so does how the Fossil Fuel industry persists in plunging us into extinction, so it all bears out, if you ask me.
I completely agree. Hamas’ leadership isn’t based in Gaza. Attacks on Gaza don’t affect them because they’re living in luxury (in Qatar IIRC). Meanwhile, they’ve cancelled all elections so the Palestinians can’t just choose a new government.
And this applies to the outside influence as well. Iranians and evangelical Christians don’t need to live with the chaos they help to thrive. They get to sit back, thousands of miles away, safe from any consequences. Since they don’t suffer any consequences, why would they stop? And if they don’t stop, it makes it that much harder to achieve peace.
Nah it’s actually pretty easy. Just needs someone who isn’t Netnyahu.
That’s definitely a start. Unfortunately, just swapping Netenyahu out with someone less extreme wouldn’t get Hamas to stop their attacks. It wouldn’t cause the people on both sides to feel safe enough to trust in a peace process and to forgive past actions.
There are a lot of factors in play and the solution to this, if there is one, is going to be very complicated and difficult to achieve. It will be worth it, but it won’t be easy.
I mean Hamas already agreed to stop their attacks in ceasefires before (see: 2008 and 2012 ceasefires). It was then Netenyahu who didn’t lift the blockade, therefore not holding Israel’s end of the agreements. It was also Netenyahu who stopped the peace process in 1995 because he’s Netenyahu.
This is what I meant by just needs someone who isn’t Netenyahu. Hamas has proven that they’re willing to engage in dialogue, despite what’s written in their charter. It’s Netenyahu who doesn’t want that, so he’s basically acting as a barrier between both sides and peace.
You are defending a group who as part of their founding charter calls for the extermination of all Jews on earth not just in Israel. You are at best wildly ignorant on this subject if not dishonest.
I made easily provable statements and can provide sources on them. If you have proof that anything I said is wrong, you’re welcome to provide it.
You get someone who stops the illegal settlement expansion and gives the land back.
You would also need someone on the Palestinian side that the Israelis would trust to keep their word and not attack. That trust just isn’t there and will be difficult to rebuild.
I’m not completely disagreeing with you. The illegal settlements need to go. I’d like to see any illegal settlements responded to by having a special group of Israeli police, working with Palestinian authorities and not just moving in on their own, arresting the settlers instead of the military moving in to protect them.
There’s also the outside influence to consider. Evangelical Christians love the settlers. They help them and any politicians who would protect them. They’d work against a politician who promised to arrest them.
There are a lot of factors in play and the solution won’t be an easy one.
My bad for my tone. I was tired and didn’t noticed how sassy I came off.
I don’t think my suggestion will ever happen, but I think it’s what needs to happen.
I don’t think Palestinians would trust IDF soldiers to be escorts to be honest, but I suppose white police/soldiers played a role in integration in the US.
As far as implementing solutions, I think the Palestinians should decide that for themselves. I don’t think the international community will allow that for MANY reasons, Christians being just one. And until we can stop the ethnic cleansing policy from its current implementation, there is no room to even try anything.
But yes, the evangelical Christian relationship with Israel is VERY different than the relationship of Israel to Jews. I understand the propaganda I see in the Jewish community, and I understand how it’s harder to see this issue clearly when you’re more likely to have family members, friends, and memories made in a region.
Christian fantasize about Israel being theirs or seeing themselves as the true Israel already, and that it’s a metaphor for them and not Jews.
that’s not even getting into how all the neighboring countries feel and how all their allies and enemies feel. It’s a lot.
UN created this quagmire so let them sort it. Reset borders to the original plan, Jerusalem becomes its own city state, administered by the UN. It will anger everyone but let the UN take responsibility and clean up the mess they made (sort of).