Yeah. Just to add, it is ostensibly meant to be a way of going “hey, it looks like your performance is suffering. Maybe this is due to workload, stress, etc. problems. Let’s work together to get you back on track”. But of course it is really a sinister way to invent reasons why someone needs to be fired. Because if you get fired after PIP then HR can say “well we tried our best to help you succeed and you just couldn’t do it”
They are a way of gaslighting and victim blaming an employee while firing them.
Or they’re a tool to give the employee some quantifiable and measurable areas they need to improve on. This way both sides are clear of expectations and there’s no surprises.
Not all bosses suck. I’ve had to put a few people on them and they’ve helped, never had to fire someone afterwards.
That’s certainly a possibility, but if someone told me they were put on a PIP, and asked me what they should expect, I’d tell them that in all likelihood it means that they are going to be let go in the near future.
It’s a different story if the company does regular performance management with all employees. For example I work in the public sector and we do annual performance reviews, but also annual performance agreements, which are basically PIPs but without the prerequisite that performance has diminished.
Well yes. A PIP is a last resort. It’s what you do when coaching, mentoring, and flat out ordering haven’t worked. If you get to this stage you’re at the precipice.
At my previous job I think they actually published stats on pips internally and it was like 50% success rate. I mean it’s not great but the alternative is you just get straight up fired. I think PIP is probably generally a good thing.
Nah you just don’t get it. Firing is a capitalist invention designed by the elite to keep the population down. Everyone is an excellent employee and every manager everywhere is getting a bonus and poorly utilizing team skills.
From the employee’s perspective, it’s basically an amount of time for you to find a new job while still on the payroll at your current company. There are exceptions, but generally speaking you either won’t survive the PIP, or you will but you’ll be at the top of the list during the next layoffs. And even if you somehow survive all of that, you’re not looking at good raises and career advancement anymore at that company.
So use it as a runway to the next job and move on.
There will always be outliers but the general advice is still solid: if you’re on PIP or something similar, you should start the job search immediately. Coming out in a better position is possible but not likely enough to count on.
If you were on a PIP, your performance was below expectations for your current level. To be promoted your performance needs to be consistently at the next level.
What kind of company was it that contradicted itself so completely?
You can offer value while fucking up other things that need correcting. In theory a PIP is meant to clearly highlight a behavior to help the individual correct it. We’ll just fire a person if they don’t really have a chance.
In all the companies I worked at in there last 20 years, there’s simply no way someone can get promoted while on a PIP. Nor can they get a salary increase, bonus, or shares. It’s a strict rule, and common sense frankly.
It doesn’t matter if they exceed some aspects and fail in others. If they’re on a PIP, they are not meeting the expectations for their role, period.
Not necessarily. My skill set made me the right choice for the new position. It was more of a job title change than anything.
I do suspect that my boss never submitted the pip to HR, though. He never submitted any of the other ‘disciplinary actions’ he performed over the 7 years I worked for him.
In my career space, if someones is not immediatly replaceable (even for advanced positions that require degrees) its considered a failure of managment to not have business continuity in place.
You never know when life happens, your lead tech or lab coordinator could have a date with truck-kun and be stuck in the hospital for months. If the important things are not written down then you need to look elsewhere because managment isnt doing their job.
At my job we had to fire some guy who just never work, but HR out him on PIP first and assigned him to another team at the company. A few weeks later the new team also wanted him gone, so it was time to fire him. Except HR forgot to tell him he was on PIP so he was only moved to another team yet again. This third team wanted him gone even faster than the previoua.
Performance Improvement Plan. Basically HR collecting evidence so you can’t sue after they fire you.
Yeah. Just to add, it is ostensibly meant to be a way of going “hey, it looks like your performance is suffering. Maybe this is due to workload, stress, etc. problems. Let’s work together to get you back on track”. But of course it is really a sinister way to invent reasons why someone needs to be fired. Because if you get fired after PIP then HR can say “well we tried our best to help you succeed and you just couldn’t do it”
They are a way of gaslighting and victim blaming an employee while firing them.
Or they’re a tool to give the employee some quantifiable and measurable areas they need to improve on. This way both sides are clear of expectations and there’s no surprises.
Not all bosses suck. I’ve had to put a few people on them and they’ve helped, never had to fire someone afterwards.
That’s certainly a possibility, but if someone told me they were put on a PIP, and asked me what they should expect, I’d tell them that in all likelihood it means that they are going to be let go in the near future.
It’s a different story if the company does regular performance management with all employees. For example I work in the public sector and we do annual performance reviews, but also annual performance agreements, which are basically PIPs but without the prerequisite that performance has diminished.
Well yes. A PIP is a last resort. It’s what you do when coaching, mentoring, and flat out ordering haven’t worked. If you get to this stage you’re at the precipice.
This 100%. If you’re at the point where a PIP is happening, the employee shouldn’t be surprised by it.
What does the half shield next to your username mean?
He’s your rival
Not sure what you mean by half shield since that’s probably specific to your client, but likely cause I’m one of the admins for lemmy.ca.
At my previous job I think they actually published stats on pips internally and it was like 50% success rate. I mean it’s not great but the alternative is you just get straight up fired. I think PIP is probably generally a good thing.
I’ve issued like 10 pips in my time managing I have a 40% success rate. Plenty of companies really do try to make them successful.
Bad faith only works because it resembles good faith.
It’s still horseshit.
“Not all bosses suck”
Said By: A boss that fires people.
That tracks.
They literally said “never had to fire anyone”
But… ok, sure let’s go with your “interpretation”
Firing people does not mean you’re a bad boss.
Nah you just don’t get it. Firing is a capitalist invention designed by the elite to keep the population down. Everyone is an excellent employee and every manager everywhere is getting a bonus and poorly utilizing team skills.
I feel like you’re being sarcastic but I’ve seen enough posts here to think you might be serious.
And you’ll never know!
From the employee’s perspective, it’s basically an amount of time for you to find a new job while still on the payroll at your current company. There are exceptions, but generally speaking you either won’t survive the PIP, or you will but you’ll be at the top of the list during the next layoffs. And even if you somehow survive all of that, you’re not looking at good raises and career advancement anymore at that company.
So use it as a runway to the next job and move on.
Buddy of mine survived a PIP and is now one level up. Took a long time but he did it. Sometimes the PIP is related to politics (ie. Asshole “leaders”)
There will always be outliers but the general advice is still solid: if you’re on PIP or something similar, you should start the job search immediately. Coming out in a better position is possible but not likely enough to count on.
Eh, I was on a pip and was promoted during it.
It helps if you’re actually valuable to the company (knowledge wise).
How come? That doesn’t make any sense at all.
If you were on a PIP, your performance was below expectations for your current level. To be promoted your performance needs to be consistently at the next level.
What kind of company was it that contradicted itself so completely?
You can offer value while fucking up other things that need correcting. In theory a PIP is meant to clearly highlight a behavior to help the individual correct it. We’ll just fire a person if they don’t really have a chance.
In all the companies I worked at in there last 20 years, there’s simply no way someone can get promoted while on a PIP. Nor can they get a salary increase, bonus, or shares. It’s a strict rule, and common sense frankly.
It doesn’t matter if they exceed some aspects and fail in others. If they’re on a PIP, they are not meeting the expectations for their role, period.
Not necessarily. My skill set made me the right choice for the new position. It was more of a job title change than anything.
I do suspect that my boss never submitted the pip to HR, though. He never submitted any of the other ‘disciplinary actions’ he performed over the 7 years I worked for him.
So you weren’t on PIP and you didn’t get promoted.
Your comment made me laugh out loud. That was well done.
I went from a admin to Sr engineer, so it was a promotion, but I was really doing the job of engineer before the promotion.
Then I think you got very very lucky.
In my career space, if someones is not immediatly replaceable (even for advanced positions that require degrees) its considered a failure of managment to not have business continuity in place.
You never know when life happens, your lead tech or lab coordinator could have a date with truck-kun and be stuck in the hospital for months. If the important things are not written down then you need to look elsewhere because managment isnt doing their job.
I definitely got lucky by having a good boss (most of the time, but he was bipolar so every so often you got screamed at for no reason).
And yeah, I actually did a lot of work to help with the hit by a bus scenario because everything was so siloed when I started.
Yup. PIP == quit immediately, or at least spend a majority of your work day finding a new job.
At my job we had to fire some guy who just never work, but HR out him on PIP first and assigned him to another team at the company. A few weeks later the new team also wanted him gone, so it was time to fire him. Except HR forgot to tell him he was on PIP so he was only moved to another team yet again. This third team wanted him gone even faster than the previoua.