In fascism, bureaucracy is not use as intended, it’s just a tool. Fascists (like they do with everything) will pick and choose between agencies, rules, and even individual career scientists with families, and use and manipulate them to fit their needs and reach their desired ends. And usually toss them away after.
So yes, in that way they do need it.
I believe that I did originally differentiate between a more “traditional” definition of the term 'conservative," and said that it probably would fit that definition in that it is meant as a check to slow progress slightly so we don’t do insanely stupid shit that puts millions/billions of people in harms way without them even knowing. Not without doing a little math first anyway.
But when it comes to fascists, it’s simply a tool. It will slow/stop when they need it to, and it’ll speed up (or more likely, disappear completely), when they want that. They use it to their own ends.
But that says nothing inherently about bureaucracy itself. Which is something a modern society needs to function properly and safely.
You seem to think bureaucracy is synonymous with organisation, which it isn’t. Bureaucracy is about exercising power through rule-keeping. An important aspect of bureaucracy is that it is mandatory and monopolistic. It is imposed by force, and tends to be quite disordered and disruptive to peace for that reason.
Societies don’t need bureaucracy to function, but top-down societies - like fascism and representative democracy - do. Horizontalist societies can organise without bureaucratic bullshit telling everyone how to live their lives.
And it always has the feature that it is used selectively, and it favours in-groups, which is another way in which it is conservative. The fact you think this isn’t an inherent feature of your own bureaucracy tells me that you are privileged enough to be favoured by the system as it currently is, and inattentive enough not to see how inconsistent it really is.
You already said it’s your job, as some sort of assertion that you must be right. In my experience people who do that aren’t very good at their jobs, because otherwise they’d be able to explain their reasons and not fall back on an appeal to authority. You sound like exactly the kind of small-minded asshole that thrives in bureaucracy.
Also, if you have to admit that bureaucracy actually is conservative, and you’re talking about some special brand of conservatism that you think is different to that, then I don’t even know where you disagree with me.
A bureaucracy is when a government is set up to allow people who are career experts in their respective fields to make policy decisions that make sense, rather than clueless politicians. They are apolitical by definition. It can only really be considered “conservative” in that it, by design, slows things down to make sure that the rules and laws we are making are safe, make sense, won’t kill people (quickly or slowly), etc. I don’t mean conservative in a political way.
When you remove replace those experts with unqualified stooges (see current GOP House budget that reduces EPA funding by 40%. See Trump rule that removed protections from over 60% of America’s wetlands. See GOP’s literal stated goals), it stops functioning. Everything stops functioning. Which is the intention of the fascistic “conservatives” that are running the GOP.
They are breaking down any such system that may improve people’s lives. They’re openly doing it, and gloating about it:
They’re doing it to the EPA.
They’re doing it to the Dept. of Education.
They are doing it to the ATF.
They’re doing it to the USPS.
They’re doing it to the friggin Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
They’re even doing it to the FBI.
And of course, they’re doing it to the IRS, because obviously that one makes the rest much easier to gut.
I said already that fascists will pick and choose when convenient, but the idea that “conservatives” (as they are currently defined in the US) are not currently dismantling all sorts of bureaucracy that literally keeps people from dying, is absurd.
Can you not see it? They want to “dismantle the administrative state,” as they say themselves. When that plays out, and we’ve reverted back to a form of feudalism, they see themselves as being the new feudal lords. THAT is when they “rebuild” the state into something built entirely to serve their own interests. Fascism designed from the ground up, with hundreds of years of lessons on what pitfalls to avoid in order to stay in power indefinitely.
When you start taking climate change into account, it starts to make even more sense. Big time preppers like Steve Huffman (spez) see themselves as the leaders of a feudalistic, post climate wars world.
I wish I was kidding. I have a source for that last part specifically if you want to read it. It’s insanity. Huffman is a psycho.
You literally just ignored everything I said or directly nay-sayed it and kept banging the same drum which is isn’t even relevant to this discussion.
It’s pretty clear you’re not interested in what I have to say.
Also?
A bureaucracy is when a government is set up to allow people who are career experts in their respective fields to make policy decisions that make sense, rather than clueless politicians.
Lol ok. Clearly you’re the one with no interest in an actual conversation. I made a pretty well thought out comment and I’m not even sure you read it.
I guess I’m going to be the one to tell you, but that’s exactly what bureaucracy means. Just because you have some warped definition in your mind, doesn’t make it true.
I can’t say I’m not curious to hear what you believe to be incorrect about what I said…
I’m actually starting to think that maybe you don’t know what the word actually means? It’s almost like maybe the only context you’ve seen/heard it used is from some commentator on YouTube that HATES bureaucracy so they only ever frame it in a certain way. And because of that, your concept of what it actually means, is completely skewed.
That’s just the vibe I’m getting.
But ok hoss, let’s hear it: What is “bureaucracy”?
I already told you the answer. It is literally two of my comments above this one.
I can’t say I’m not curious to hear what you believe to be incorrect about what I said…
You need to do better than that. I want to understand what you’re saying here, but it is difficult. I would love to have a real conversation about this, but if you can’t read what I’ve already written and respond to it, and you can’t even pretend to be genuinely curious about what I have to say - not what I think of what you have to say, there is a difference - then I think we’re done here.
If you can’t admit curiosity and demonstrate it by responding to what I’ve said, I won’t reply. If you can actually do those things after all this defensiveness then you will thoroughly surprise me, which is a genuine gift in this day and age.
None of this actually addresses the point that I was originally making, which is that bureaucracy is inherently conservative.
Conservatives dismantling certain kinds of regulation has no bearing on that.
Fascism needs bureaucracy in order to function.
Yes, everything needs bureaucracy to function.
In fascism, bureaucracy is not use as intended, it’s just a tool. Fascists (like they do with everything) will pick and choose between agencies, rules, and even individual career scientists with families, and use and manipulate them to fit their needs and reach their desired ends. And usually toss them away after.
So yes, in that way they do need it.
I believe that I did originally differentiate between a more “traditional” definition of the term 'conservative," and said that it probably would fit that definition in that it is meant as a check to slow progress slightly so we don’t do insanely stupid shit that puts millions/billions of people in harms way without them even knowing. Not without doing a little math first anyway.
But when it comes to fascists, it’s simply a tool. It will slow/stop when they need it to, and it’ll speed up (or more likely, disappear completely), when they want that. They use it to their own ends.
But that says nothing inherently about bureaucracy itself. Which is something a modern society needs to function properly and safely.
You seem to think bureaucracy is synonymous with organisation, which it isn’t. Bureaucracy is about exercising power through rule-keeping. An important aspect of bureaucracy is that it is mandatory and monopolistic. It is imposed by force, and tends to be quite disordered and disruptive to peace for that reason.
Societies don’t need bureaucracy to function, but top-down societies - like fascism and representative democracy - do. Horizontalist societies can organise without bureaucratic bullshit telling everyone how to live their lives.
And it always has the feature that it is used selectively, and it favours in-groups, which is another way in which it is conservative. The fact you think this isn’t an inherent feature of your own bureaucracy tells me that you are privileged enough to be favoured by the system as it currently is, and inattentive enough not to see how inconsistent it really is.
You already said it’s your job, as some sort of assertion that you must be right. In my experience people who do that aren’t very good at their jobs, because otherwise they’d be able to explain their reasons and not fall back on an appeal to authority. You sound like exactly the kind of small-minded asshole that thrives in bureaucracy.
Also, if you have to admit that bureaucracy actually is conservative, and you’re talking about some special brand of conservatism that you think is different to that, then I don’t even know where you disagree with me.
A bureaucracy is when a government is set up to allow people who are career experts in their respective fields to make policy decisions that make sense, rather than clueless politicians. They are apolitical by definition. It can only really be considered “conservative” in that it, by design, slows things down to make sure that the rules and laws we are making are safe, make sense, won’t kill people (quickly or slowly), etc. I don’t mean conservative in a political way.
When you remove replace those experts with unqualified stooges (see current GOP House budget that reduces EPA funding by 40%. See Trump rule that removed protections from over 60% of America’s wetlands. See GOP’s literal stated goals), it stops functioning. Everything stops functioning. Which is the intention of the fascistic “conservatives” that are running the GOP.
They are breaking down any such system that may improve people’s lives. They’re openly doing it, and gloating about it:
And of course, they’re doing it to the IRS, because obviously that one makes the rest much easier to gut.
I said already that fascists will pick and choose when convenient, but the idea that “conservatives” (as they are currently defined in the US) are not currently dismantling all sorts of bureaucracy that literally keeps people from dying, is absurd.
Can you not see it? They want to “dismantle the administrative state,” as they say themselves. When that plays out, and we’ve reverted back to a form of feudalism, they see themselves as being the new feudal lords. THAT is when they “rebuild” the state into something built entirely to serve their own interests. Fascism designed from the ground up, with hundreds of years of lessons on what pitfalls to avoid in order to stay in power indefinitely.
When you start taking climate change into account, it starts to make even more sense. Big time preppers like Steve Huffman (spez) see themselves as the leaders of a feudalistic, post climate wars world.
I wish I was kidding. I have a source for that last part specifically if you want to read it. It’s insanity. Huffman is a psycho.
You literally just ignored everything I said or directly nay-sayed it and kept banging the same drum which is isn’t even relevant to this discussion.
It’s pretty clear you’re not interested in what I have to say.
Also?
Bless. You sweet soul.
Lol ok. Clearly you’re the one with no interest in an actual conversation. I made a pretty well thought out comment and I’m not even sure you read it.
I guess I’m going to be the one to tell you, but that’s exactly what bureaucracy means. Just because you have some warped definition in your mind, doesn’t make it true.
I can’t say I’m not curious to hear what you believe to be incorrect about what I said…
I’m actually starting to think that maybe you don’t know what the word actually means? It’s almost like maybe the only context you’ve seen/heard it used is from some commentator on YouTube that HATES bureaucracy so they only ever frame it in a certain way. And because of that, your concept of what it actually means, is completely skewed.
That’s just the vibe I’m getting.
But ok hoss, let’s hear it: What is “bureaucracy”?
I already told you the answer. It is literally two of my comments above this one.
You need to do better than that. I want to understand what you’re saying here, but it is difficult. I would love to have a real conversation about this, but if you can’t read what I’ve already written and respond to it, and you can’t even pretend to be genuinely curious about what I have to say - not what I think of what you have to say, there is a difference - then I think we’re done here.
If you can’t admit curiosity and demonstrate it by responding to what I’ve said, I won’t reply. If you can actually do those things after all this defensiveness then you will thoroughly surprise me, which is a genuine gift in this day and age.