I’m not sure I really agree with your first point, I think finding a way to find allys in all leftists would be worth it, even if it has a dark history. Things can be better.
But holy shit their reaction was intense. And the idea that their arguments were in defense of left unity was pretty silly… 99% of it was just “anarchists wrong and evil”, and there is wild amounts of sectarianism going on just within hexbear that I’m sure lent energy to this.
I respect how you reacted under pressure. I really respect any admin of a website that can show that much restraint when dealing with personal attacks and people you explicitly disagree with.
But yeah the lethality of leftist infighting is maybe a topic that deserves more delicate conversations than memes.
I was there, I can form my own opinions, thanks. It was hyperbole, but that was the general level of arguments being made.
If you want left unity, it was a nonsensical way to behave. It was just more sectarianism. It does make sense as a way to behave if you just wanna argue… So thats what I assume the real intent was.
the meme being posted was “modern MLs are bloodthirsty monsters who will kill you if they ever get in power”
And y’all had a chance to prove the meme wrong by not turning it into a dick measuring contest with spamming equally shitty sectarian shit that on hexbear would get you kicked out (anarchists are worthless, anarchists can’t coordinate, etc.),. And it always ends like this. Anytime i mention that in the hungarian revolution the workers councils were a way more significant factor than any western influence and they literally set up groups to hunt nazis the same agresszive smug shit arrives from people who never read anything about the topic apart from the fucking Aptheker book. I feel like the ML userbase (who are right about basically anything when it comes to capitalism) would rather off themselves that even admit that any ml leader even marginally engaged in self-serving abuse of power. Of course anarchists who aren’t familiar with the site wont be happy.
I don’t know much about the Hungarian uprising. If the Soviet response was unjustified and draconian when they could have worked something out, that’s fucked up.
All three are examples of ml leaders who took huge Ls abusing their power that nobody is afraid to criticize. I’m not familiar enough with the boiled baby guy to say whether he was actually an ml or if it was another pol pot situation.
Gonzalo was a self-proclaimed Maoist, part of the reason we say ML-MZT and not MLM in English
If you want criticism of a self-proclaimed ML (and don’t count Pol Pot because that claim was not even paper thin), Khrushchev is someone we all hate who has slightly more of a claim to the title, though naturally I would argue that he is a revisionist.
If you want criticism of an actual ML, we criticize Stalin and Mao all the time, but usually not on “selfish abuse of power” terms because that generally isn’t what they did compared to simply being a bit reactionary or foolish (often right and left deviationism, respectively, though that is a slight stretch for the Four Pests case).
Naturally, if it is an ideology we believe in, then actions we disagree with are generally going to be outside of what we consider those principles to be.
Thanks for your kind words. I will admit I did get snappy towards the end of the day as I was getting tired and they had gone to straight up brigading tactics with half a dozen hexbears shitposting random replies, so there wasn’t even any point to reply anymore. It had just become a classic pile on situation because I hurt their feelings.
I’m not sure I really agree with your first point, I think finding a way to find allys in all leftists would be worth it, even if it has a dark history. Things can be better.
I’m not here to stop anyone. MLs can be allies when they act like anarchists, which they tend to do when they’re not in power. But you have to be cognizant who you’re getting in bed with.
No. I think that the praxis of MLs eventually leads to ice axes in heads “for the good of the revolution”. I believe you currently never would imagine you would make such an action. I also believe that your hierarchical states will inevitably lead to it
Let’s not pretend racism isn’t directly connected to shitting on the dominant ideology of non white or conditionally white leftists
It took me calling the original meme racist over several hours before you edited it, and you should have noticed it in the first place. It incorrectly characterizes Mao, who was heavily influenced by anarchist thought. Integrating the good parts of anarchism into ML thought is kind of the thing he is known for, and to the extent he was successful is where a big portion of controversy around his theoretical contributions to socialism lie.
Also literally read anything about Jewish intellectual traditions and how they relate to Marxism, God damn.
Galaxy-brain (not living up to his name) just implied that you“deserve” an ice axe in your head in a reply to your comment here, as a result of your recent posts calling them out for being violent tankies (proving you correct). Can we please defed? They’re just as bad as lemmygrad (who I came here to avoid) and last I checked you “didn’t think they were (all) tankies and would defed if they became a problem.” Can we at least admit they’re a problem now?
Uh, sure, and Nazis can be allies if they act like communists. You ever wonder if the reason MLs keep shooting anarchists is because instead of trying to work together the anarchists just insist the MLs become anarchists?
I think finding a way to find allys in all leftists would be worth it
I am really fine working with all leftists when we go against nazis. When the goal is the same, the methods are the same or complement each other and they don’t try to take control of “my” space/group, I can work with MLs
I’m not sure I really agree with your first point, I think finding a way to find allys in all leftists would be worth it, even if it has a dark history. Things can be better.
But holy shit their reaction was intense. And the idea that their arguments were in defense of left unity was pretty silly… 99% of it was just “anarchists wrong and evil”, and there is wild amounts of sectarianism going on just within hexbear that I’m sure lent energy to this.
I respect how you reacted under pressure. I really respect any admin of a website that can show that much restraint when dealing with personal attacks and people you explicitly disagree with.
But yeah the lethality of leftist infighting is maybe a topic that deserves more delicate conversations than memes.
not only is that not what we said, but db0 actually said that about us
I was there, I can form my own opinions, thanks. It was hyperbole, but that was the general level of arguments being made.
If you want left unity, it was a nonsensical way to behave. It was just more sectarianism. It does make sense as a way to behave if you just wanna argue… So thats what I assume the real intent was.
the meme being posted was “modern MLs are bloodthirsty monsters who will kill you if they ever get in power”
When you view a group as evil, that view tends to result in double standards for behavior, which is what you’re doing.
I’m probably going to dip because I’m too mad to be civil right now
Hi, if you read what I said I also did not like the meme originally posted. I’m just trying to be constructive about it instead of angey and loud.
Edit: “angey” was a typo but it makes me laugh
And y’all had a chance to prove the meme wrong by not turning it into a dick measuring contest with spamming equally shitty sectarian shit that on hexbear would get you kicked out (anarchists are worthless, anarchists can’t coordinate, etc.),. And it always ends like this. Anytime i mention that in the hungarian revolution the workers councils were a way more significant factor than any western influence and they literally set up groups to hunt nazis the same agresszive smug shit arrives from people who never read anything about the topic apart from the fucking Aptheker book. I feel like the ML userbase (who are right about basically anything when it comes to capitalism) would rather off themselves that even admit that any ml leader even marginally engaged in self-serving abuse of power. Of course anarchists who aren’t familiar with the site wont be happy.
How many people did we shoot in the thread? Are you that easy to pander to?
I don’t know much about the Hungarian uprising. If the Soviet response was unjustified and draconian when they could have worked something out, that’s fucked up.
Do you have any reading recommendations?
Ask them about Khrushchev and co’s destalinization or 70s Mao or Gonzalo.
afaik hexbear unanimously hates Gonzalo, which is throwing me off trying to interpret this comment. not being snarky
All three are examples of ml leaders who took huge Ls abusing their power that nobody is afraid to criticize. I’m not familiar enough with the boiled baby guy to say whether he was actually an ml or if it was another pol pot situation.
Gonzalo was a self-proclaimed Maoist, part of the reason we say ML-MZT and not MLM in English
If you want criticism of a self-proclaimed ML (and don’t count Pol Pot because that claim was not even paper thin), Khrushchev is someone we all hate who has slightly more of a claim to the title, though naturally I would argue that he is a revisionist.
If you want criticism of an actual ML, we criticize Stalin and Mao all the time, but usually not on “selfish abuse of power” terms because that generally isn’t what they did compared to simply being a bit reactionary or foolish (often right and left deviationism, respectively, though that is a slight stretch for the Four Pests case).
Naturally, if it is an ideology we believe in, then actions we disagree with are generally going to be outside of what we consider those principles to be.
It quite literally was tho
Thanks for your kind words. I will admit I did get snappy towards the end of the day as I was getting tired and they had gone to straight up brigading tactics with half a dozen hexbears shitposting random replies, so there wasn’t even any point to reply anymore. It had just become a classic pile on situation because I hurt their feelings.
I’m not here to stop anyone. MLs can be allies when they act like anarchists, which they tend to do when they’re not in power. But you have to be cognizant who you’re getting in bed with.
Do you think that all ML’s harbor some innate desire to just start murdering anarchists for no particular reason when given the chance or something?
This weird self-induced paranoia can’t be good for you.
No. I think that the praxis of MLs eventually leads to ice axes in heads “for the good of the revolution”. I believe you currently never would imagine you would make such an action. I also believe that your hierarchical states will inevitably lead to it
Ah, yes. I suppose Marxism-Leninism inevitably drives people to murder, just like Islam inevitably drives people to murder.
All Marxist-Leninists are the same, just like all those swarthy Muslamics.
That seems like a perfectly reasonable view of reality you’ve got there lmao
Ice Axe.
For men.
did you just try to compare your ideology to marginalized people you nicompoop?
You’ve made it perfectly clear that you are not interested in a debate.
Which means that we can all just throw out the most ridiculous claims possible without having to defend them.
Funny how that works
My man, you’re absolutely welcome to make an ass of yourself as publicly as you want!
You are an inspiration to us all!
“First they came for the communists . . .”
Let’s not pretend racism isn’t directly connected to shitting on the dominant ideology of non white or conditionally white leftists
It took me calling the original meme racist over several hours before you edited it, and you should have noticed it in the first place. It incorrectly characterizes Mao, who was heavily influenced by anarchist thought. Integrating the good parts of anarchism into ML thought is kind of the thing he is known for, and to the extent he was successful is where a big portion of controversy around his theoretical contributions to socialism lie.
Also literally read anything about Jewish intellectual traditions and how they relate to Marxism, God damn.
I mean, you’re not proving some heads don’t need “ice-axes”.
It’s also weird to complain about Trotsky getting
when he has way more anarchist blood on his hand than Mao
It’s weird to call it an ice axe too
It’s so fascinating to see you miss point so thoroughly! It just goes to show one needs more than book smarts
Tell me again that you aren’t seeking conflict
Well you certainly lived up to to your alias today
Yeah. I’m smart as fuck dude. It’s an ice pick that Trotsky got killed with btw. An ice axe is a piece of mountain climbing equipment
So smort!
Yo! This guy can’t even spell the word ‘smart’! Even with our modern technology and autocorrect. He still got it wrong. What a brain moron.
Galaxy-brain (not living up to his name) just implied that you “deserve” an ice axe in your head in a reply to your comment here, as a result of your recent posts calling them out for being violent tankies (proving you correct). Can we please defed? They’re just as bad as lemmygrad (who I came here to avoid) and last I checked you “didn’t think they were (all) tankies and would defed if they became a problem.” Can we at least admit they’re a problem now?
deleted by creator
Uh, sure, and Nazis can be allies if they act like communists. You ever wonder if the reason MLs keep shooting anarchists is because instead of trying to work together the anarchists just insist the MLs become anarchists?
gasp he said the silent part out loud!
Hey, why don’t you engage with what I said? I’m sure you feel really smug for owning me, but you forgot to actually defend anarchists.
I am really fine working with all leftists when we go against nazis. When the goal is the same, the methods are the same or complement each other and they don’t try to take control of “my” space/group, I can work with MLs