Ah, I see. In your opinion, is the price for your Urban Arrow cargo bike justified for the value it provides? I don’t mean to throw into question its production cost versus its R&D costs, but what I mean is, a conventional commuter-style bicycle might run into the one or two thousand USD range, so one cargo bike can buy about three conventional bicycles. This confuses me, unless I am to understand that the Urban Arrow is a more upscale cargo bike. Is that the case?
I have not tracked the developments in cargo bikes – except those which are electric – so I’m curious if there is a lower-end market of cargo bikes in the $3-4k range?
Definitely depends on how you use it. For me it is definitely worth it, since I hated dumping a lot of money into car repairs and I now live within 7km of all the shops I’ll ever need. I got rid of my car there and then though, so it really replaces my car. Plus I now got a foldable second ebike that don’t cost anything to take with you on a train.
Most of the stores I frequent are within a 5 km circle from me, and the more esoteric ones within 10 km. So while I don’t need the car at all for my regular shopping, it’s still a fixture in my life due to friends and family that live some 30 km away, with no hope of decent, orbital public transport around the metropolitan area.
So the best I can do for now is to be car-lite, reserving the car for those longer trips. This adds some 2000 miles [3200 km] per year, which also helps keep my running and maintenance costs down. Although I’ve had my eye on taking a Class 3 ebike and pressing it into service as my long distance machine. This could also potentially be useful for inter-city trips by rail, as Amtrak has a commuter rail service here to the next metropolitan area, and can accommodate bicycles free of charge.
But basically, as a single person, I presently don’t have the need to move a bunch of stuff when I go biking, but rather want to solve the problem of getting just myself somewhere farther and with reasonable speed, to backfill the non-existent public transport in specific directions. Still, these cargo bikes are cool and maybe one day I’ll see one in the wild here.
a conventional commuter-style bicycle might run into the one or two thousand USD range
We’re talking € not US$ here, so not sure how this translates, but if by “conventional” you mean analog, then yes, a commuter bike with belt drive and disc brakes is somewhere around 1.5 k€.
Prices have surged in Europe over Covid, the analog commuter I bought for 1090 € in 2019 is now being sold for 1499 €…
Electric (pedelec) commuter/city bikes start at 2 k€, but realistically you’re looking at 2.5-3.5 k€.
So cargo bikes are about twice the price of that. Is that justified? Well, depends. You can easily transport two children in there, with a commuter that’s a chore.
And Urban Arrows are good, but aren’t that fancy or pricey, the market is pretty tight. With a Bullit you’re also looking at 5.5-6.5 k€ depending on configuration. Bakfiets are a bit cheaper and Yuba as well, while Riese & Müller can go up to 8 k€.
However (I’m not sure about other countries, this is Germany specific), if you’re self employed / run your own company you’re eligible for a 25% government grant, and if you’re an employee a lot of companies have programs where you can lease one and it’s tax deductible.
Yep, I understood that there’s a currency difference, but I mentioned USD because I suspected there’s a gap between how bikes are priced in America and Europe. And it seems that is indeed the case, since although we’ve seen inflation, it’s not to the point where an acoustic bicycle pre-Covid-19 is now going for almost 50% higher.
From a brief search, a commuter pedelec here in California is closer to $1.5-$2.5k, which even with currency conversion is a good bit cheaper than what you’re describing in Europe. And that’s fine. But it seems that cargo bikes in America are asking prices which are more akin to European prices, being closer to 2.5-3x more expensive than a pedelec. This leads me to believe it must be due to the much lower volumes of cargo bikes sold here.
I also don’t believe we have the breadth of cargo bikes as Europe does – I think a number of cargo bikes here have to be imported – although I’m ever hopeful that more bikes and ebikes become established in America and tuned for our situation.
For reference, I think the rough equivalent of a Europe pedelec is an American class 1 ebike, with max power of 750W and speed of 32 kph [20 mph], with the more powerful class 3 also having 750W but with 45 kph [28 mph] and comes with instrument requirements (eg speedometer, helmet) and 18+ age requirements. That said, in California, we also see a minor problem where e-dirtbikes and e-motorbikes are operated in spaces like bike lanes and trails, as well as modified, overspeeding ebikes.
I would expect that as each US State rolls out an incentive program of some description, these problems will fade into the background, as hopefully more cyclists – acoustic or otherwise – will spur building better infrastructure and enable even more scenarios for everyone. California’s program is not expected to tie into our tax system, probably being a means-tested grant program. At the federal level, I don’t believe business leases of equipment have an overly special tax deduction, with the exception of leasing a heavy vehicle/truck/SUV, because of outdated tax policies.
From a brief search, a commuter pedelec here in California is closer to $1.5-$2.5k,
I don’t know, what I have seen is that somewhat reliable companies like e.g. Trek also seem to be in the 2.5-3.5 range? I mean, yeah you can buy cheaper ebikes here as well, on Amazon for example. But I have never seen one of those in real life, maybe it’s just more common to buy those in the US.
Also bear in mind that prices here are including VAT (19% in Germany) while in the US prices are usually given excluding VAT.
This leads me to believe it must be due to the much lower volumes of cargo bikes sold here.
Probably also because in the US the clientele is exclusively wealthy, while in Europe it’s much more diverse. Cars are expensive here, since you have regular inspections, mandatory maintenance, mandatory insurances, etc. Even a small used car will cost you several hundred € per month, all in all.
The amount of people in the US who cannot afford a car but can afford an electric cargo bike is probably zero – in Europe that’s totally possible (example given: me 👋).
I also don’t believe we have the breadth of cargo bikes as Europe does
I guess so. There’s generally no shortage of US bikes here, Giant, Trek, Specialized, Marin, etc. are well known and readily available, but except for Radwagon I don’t know a single US cargo bike (and they’re leaving Europe at the end of 2023) from the US. Except Tern from Taiwan everything that’s being sold here is either Dutch, Danish, German, or Swiss.
rough equivalent of a Europe pedelec is an American class 1 ebike, with max power of 750W and speed of 32 kph
EU pedelecs are limited to 250W and 25 km/h, and then up to 45 km/h for which you need a helmet, a license plate and a driving license.
I’ve been led to believe that at least here in California, a fair number of ebikes come from online, as opposed to bike shops. Part of that is due to the relative low uptake of bicycling as transportation in much of the country outside of denser metropolitan areas on average, but the other aspect is that whereas I imagine bike shops in Europe are fairly standalone, small businesses, a number of shops here are chains created from decades of consolidation to cut costs. The result is that these chains might only support a handful of bicycle brands, and usually fewer ebike brands; we do have shops specific to Trek, Cannondale, etc but they’re not clustered near each other at all, often being in different cities. For acoustic road bikes specifically though, bike shops work fine to serve the wealthier clientele.
With that background, I think the situation for acoustic and electric bicycles have diverged. Acoustic bikes are very prevalent in the used market, and extremely cheap, “bicycle shaped objects” are available at Walmart. But ebikes have not reached that stage, and so ebike riders are often enthusiasts willing to buy online for substantially cheaper and shipped to them for free, or are the lucky few who have a broad selection of ebikes at their local bike shop. I wouldn’t regard these two demographics as particularly wealthy; I imagine very wealthy people would likely still be driving cars, for the speed and personal convenience.
As for cars, at least in California, they’re commonly viewed as “one of the few cheap things” in this high cost-of-living state. But that perception might be due to poor math, since the cost of insurance and registration, car payments or depreciation, and fuel ads up to somewhere between $5k-$10k per year. As a related tangent, I’ve heard anecdotes that EV sales in California are held back by a misconception that EVs cost more to run than ICE cars, despite a clear showing that our higher electricity costs are outweighed by the much lower maintenance costs. This showcases that people might have cars and simply be unaware of their true costs, which would tend to wrongly make cargo ebikes look expensive.
I proffer this video that touches upon the economics of a cargo ebike in North America replacing an automobile: https://youtu.be/QAON32yr7G0
EU pedelecs are limited to 250W and 25 km/h, and then up to 45 km/h for which you need a helmet, a license plate and a driving license.
Would both types be called pedelecs, or do they distinguish the latter with its own name or category? I can understand the helmet requirement, and maybe even an auto/motorbike license, but what is the purpose of the license plate? Do the 45 kph pedelecs pay some form of registration fees? This starts to seems very similar to what a small 49cc moped/scooter/motorbike would require, is that right?
EDIT: I do appreciate this exchange and all the Europe-specific information. I’m learning a lot and I hope I’m not bombarding you with too many questions
Well, I guess we can go on forever here, but I think the differences between the EU and the US are too many to find a simple explanation. Wealth distribution, population density, regulations, and so on.
I imagine bike shops in Europe are fairly standalone, small businesses
It’s a little bit of everything, tbf. There is a lot of independent local businesses here, for sure, and even in small cities you will find one. But you’ll also find the same few brands everywhere. We do have larger manufacturers who own several brands, so if you buy brand X or Y – it’s the same company. You have companies like Cube (I think they’re popular in the US as well) who run their own flagship stores, and Rose, who dominate online. But even those are mostly owner-managed companies.
I imagine very wealthy people would likely still be driving cars, for the speed and personal convenience.
Well sure, wealthy people here also have a car, they might just replace one car with a cargo bike. What I meant is, in the US even if you’re poor, the car is the last thing you’re going to give up. For example the thought of living in your car is absolutely alien to me, but I’ve heard this quite often as an argument from Americans why making fuel more expensive would be classicist. In the US, losing your car is often more devastating than losing your house.
Would both types be called pedelecs,
The speedier ones are called S-Pedelecs, Speed Pedelecs. And yes, they’re pretty much like a 50 ccm scooter, and the license needed is not a full auto license, it’s the same 16 y old get for their scooter.
but what is the purpose of the license plate?
I don’t know, I’ve never owned one or a moped, but it’s the same plate a moped would get, it’s some kind of insurance/tax thing I think.
Ah, I see. In your opinion, is the price for your Urban Arrow cargo bike justified for the value it provides? I don’t mean to throw into question its production cost versus its R&D costs, but what I mean is, a conventional commuter-style bicycle might run into the one or two thousand USD range, so one cargo bike can buy about three conventional bicycles. This confuses me, unless I am to understand that the Urban Arrow is a more upscale cargo bike. Is that the case?
I have not tracked the developments in cargo bikes – except those which are electric – so I’m curious if there is a lower-end market of cargo bikes in the $3-4k range?
Definitely depends on how you use it. For me it is definitely worth it, since I hated dumping a lot of money into car repairs and I now live within 7km of all the shops I’ll ever need. I got rid of my car there and then though, so it really replaces my car. Plus I now got a foldable second ebike that don’t cost anything to take with you on a train.
Most of the stores I frequent are within a 5 km circle from me, and the more esoteric ones within 10 km. So while I don’t need the car at all for my regular shopping, it’s still a fixture in my life due to friends and family that live some 30 km away, with no hope of decent, orbital public transport around the metropolitan area.
So the best I can do for now is to be car-lite, reserving the car for those longer trips. This adds some 2000 miles [3200 km] per year, which also helps keep my running and maintenance costs down. Although I’ve had my eye on taking a Class 3 ebike and pressing it into service as my long distance machine. This could also potentially be useful for inter-city trips by rail, as Amtrak has a commuter rail service here to the next metropolitan area, and can accommodate bicycles free of charge.
But basically, as a single person, I presently don’t have the need to move a bunch of stuff when I go biking, but rather want to solve the problem of getting just myself somewhere farther and with reasonable speed, to backfill the non-existent public transport in specific directions. Still, these cargo bikes are cool and maybe one day I’ll see one in the wild here.
We’re talking € not US$ here, so not sure how this translates, but if by “conventional” you mean analog, then yes, a commuter bike with belt drive and disc brakes is somewhere around 1.5 k€.
Prices have surged in Europe over Covid, the analog commuter I bought for 1090 € in 2019 is now being sold for 1499 €…
Electric (pedelec) commuter/city bikes start at 2 k€, but realistically you’re looking at 2.5-3.5 k€.
So cargo bikes are about twice the price of that. Is that justified? Well, depends. You can easily transport two children in there, with a commuter that’s a chore.
And Urban Arrows are good, but aren’t that fancy or pricey, the market is pretty tight. With a Bullit you’re also looking at 5.5-6.5 k€ depending on configuration. Bakfiets are a bit cheaper and Yuba as well, while Riese & Müller can go up to 8 k€.
However (I’m not sure about other countries, this is Germany specific), if you’re self employed / run your own company you’re eligible for a 25% government grant, and if you’re an employee a lot of companies have programs where you can lease one and it’s tax deductible.
Yep, I understood that there’s a currency difference, but I mentioned USD because I suspected there’s a gap between how bikes are priced in America and Europe. And it seems that is indeed the case, since although we’ve seen inflation, it’s not to the point where an acoustic bicycle pre-Covid-19 is now going for almost 50% higher.
From a brief search, a commuter pedelec here in California is closer to $1.5-$2.5k, which even with currency conversion is a good bit cheaper than what you’re describing in Europe. And that’s fine. But it seems that cargo bikes in America are asking prices which are more akin to European prices, being closer to 2.5-3x more expensive than a pedelec. This leads me to believe it must be due to the much lower volumes of cargo bikes sold here.
I also don’t believe we have the breadth of cargo bikes as Europe does – I think a number of cargo bikes here have to be imported – although I’m ever hopeful that more bikes and ebikes become established in America and tuned for our situation.
For reference, I think the rough equivalent of a Europe pedelec is an American class 1 ebike, with max power of 750W and speed of 32 kph [20 mph], with the more powerful class 3 also having 750W but with 45 kph [28 mph] and comes with instrument requirements (eg speedometer, helmet) and 18+ age requirements. That said, in California, we also see a minor problem where e-dirtbikes and e-motorbikes are operated in spaces like bike lanes and trails, as well as modified, overspeeding ebikes.
I would expect that as each US State rolls out an incentive program of some description, these problems will fade into the background, as hopefully more cyclists – acoustic or otherwise – will spur building better infrastructure and enable even more scenarios for everyone. California’s program is not expected to tie into our tax system, probably being a means-tested grant program. At the federal level, I don’t believe business leases of equipment have an overly special tax deduction, with the exception of leasing a heavy vehicle/truck/SUV, because of outdated tax policies.
I don’t know, what I have seen is that somewhat reliable companies like e.g. Trek also seem to be in the 2.5-3.5 range? I mean, yeah you can buy cheaper ebikes here as well, on Amazon for example. But I have never seen one of those in real life, maybe it’s just more common to buy those in the US.
Also bear in mind that prices here are including VAT (19% in Germany) while in the US prices are usually given excluding VAT.
Probably also because in the US the clientele is exclusively wealthy, while in Europe it’s much more diverse. Cars are expensive here, since you have regular inspections, mandatory maintenance, mandatory insurances, etc. Even a small used car will cost you several hundred € per month, all in all.
The amount of people in the US who cannot afford a car but can afford an electric cargo bike is probably zero – in Europe that’s totally possible (example given: me 👋).
I guess so. There’s generally no shortage of US bikes here, Giant, Trek, Specialized, Marin, etc. are well known and readily available, but except for Radwagon I don’t know a single US cargo bike (and they’re leaving Europe at the end of 2023) from the US. Except Tern from Taiwan everything that’s being sold here is either Dutch, Danish, German, or Swiss.
EU pedelecs are limited to 250W and 25 km/h, and then up to 45 km/h for which you need a helmet, a license plate and a driving license.
I’ve been led to believe that at least here in California, a fair number of ebikes come from online, as opposed to bike shops. Part of that is due to the relative low uptake of bicycling as transportation in much of the country outside of denser metropolitan areas on average, but the other aspect is that whereas I imagine bike shops in Europe are fairly standalone, small businesses, a number of shops here are chains created from decades of consolidation to cut costs. The result is that these chains might only support a handful of bicycle brands, and usually fewer ebike brands; we do have shops specific to Trek, Cannondale, etc but they’re not clustered near each other at all, often being in different cities. For acoustic road bikes specifically though, bike shops work fine to serve the wealthier clientele.
With that background, I think the situation for acoustic and electric bicycles have diverged. Acoustic bikes are very prevalent in the used market, and extremely cheap, “bicycle shaped objects” are available at Walmart. But ebikes have not reached that stage, and so ebike riders are often enthusiasts willing to buy online for substantially cheaper and shipped to them for free, or are the lucky few who have a broad selection of ebikes at their local bike shop. I wouldn’t regard these two demographics as particularly wealthy; I imagine very wealthy people would likely still be driving cars, for the speed and personal convenience.
As for cars, at least in California, they’re commonly viewed as “one of the few cheap things” in this high cost-of-living state. But that perception might be due to poor math, since the cost of insurance and registration, car payments or depreciation, and fuel ads up to somewhere between $5k-$10k per year. As a related tangent, I’ve heard anecdotes that EV sales in California are held back by a misconception that EVs cost more to run than ICE cars, despite a clear showing that our higher electricity costs are outweighed by the much lower maintenance costs. This showcases that people might have cars and simply be unaware of their true costs, which would tend to wrongly make cargo ebikes look expensive.
I proffer this video that touches upon the economics of a cargo ebike in North America replacing an automobile: https://youtu.be/QAON32yr7G0
Would both types be called pedelecs, or do they distinguish the latter with its own name or category? I can understand the helmet requirement, and maybe even an auto/motorbike license, but what is the purpose of the license plate? Do the 45 kph pedelecs pay some form of registration fees? This starts to seems very similar to what a small 49cc moped/scooter/motorbike would require, is that right?
EDIT: I do appreciate this exchange and all the Europe-specific information. I’m learning a lot and I hope I’m not bombarding you with too many questions
Well, I guess we can go on forever here, but I think the differences between the EU and the US are too many to find a simple explanation. Wealth distribution, population density, regulations, and so on.
It’s a little bit of everything, tbf. There is a lot of independent local businesses here, for sure, and even in small cities you will find one. But you’ll also find the same few brands everywhere. We do have larger manufacturers who own several brands, so if you buy brand X or Y – it’s the same company. You have companies like Cube (I think they’re popular in the US as well) who run their own flagship stores, and Rose, who dominate online. But even those are mostly owner-managed companies.
Well sure, wealthy people here also have a car, they might just replace one car with a cargo bike. What I meant is, in the US even if you’re poor, the car is the last thing you’re going to give up. For example the thought of living in your car is absolutely alien to me, but I’ve heard this quite often as an argument from Americans why making fuel more expensive would be classicist. In the US, losing your car is often more devastating than losing your house.
The speedier ones are called S-Pedelecs, Speed Pedelecs. And yes, they’re pretty much like a 50 ccm scooter, and the license needed is not a full auto license, it’s the same 16 y old get for their scooter.
I don’t know, I’ve never owned one or a moped, but it’s the same plate a moped would get, it’s some kind of insurance/tax thing I think.