How’d you get access to that? It seems to be a major pain in the backside (at least here in the UK as a person afab) getting anyone to actually take NBs seriously in terms of the medical side of things.
I told them they were hurting my back, which had the advantage of being true. Also I saved up. Idc what people want to label shit as long as I’m able to do what I gotta do. In fact, I would argue the labels were the problem in the first place and we should stop making new ones and push the ones that exist back into the narrow context in which they’re actually useful.
I stand corrected; non-binary people are transgender. I apologize for my ignorance. I just didn’t know.
What I also don’t know is why you’re so angry. All that happened was I didn’t know something. I learned my mistake, apologized, and hope you’ll relax a little and realize that not everyone knows everything you do. Please don’t be mad at someone’s ignorance.
Maybe don’t speak so confidently on trans issues when you aren’t trans! Esp considering the transmed vibe you have given off, inadvertantly or no. Just stop speaking for other people.
And I rewrote the comment in caps not out of anger towards you, but out of a desire for clarity for anyone who reads it. Don’t take everything so personally. If you use transmed talking points, even inadvertantly, expect to be called an asshole. Same thing goes if you were to spout any bigoted talking points you didn’t understand.
“not buying your ignorance explanation anymore, you seem really dismissive.”
Of course I’m going to eventually be dismissive toward someone that is antagonistic from the beginning. The second I lash back you play the victim. Get over yourself. You wanna see dismissive? Go …
Gender identity doesn’t get assigned at birth. There is no “gender” field on a birth certificate.
Sex gets identified at birth (at the latest, usually before, during pregnancy, unless specifically requested to keep it secret).
Two reasons this is important to point out:
Assignment implies that the act of assigning is what makes it so. It’s not. If a doctor says that a male baby is female, it’s not now female just because they said so. “Identify” is a much more accurate description of what the doctor is doing.
The whole premise of “transness” being a thing relies on the notion of sex and gender being two distinct, independently-variable traits. So be careful not to conflate them. It causes needless confusion, since conflating them literally undermines the whole thing–after all, if “sex” and “gender” are equivalent, then it’s objectively impossible to be trans.
I very much agree with this point. My reaction there was mostly just a gut response to being excluded from trans spaces in the past for not being “trans enough” and I could’ve worded it better.
It just frustrates me how much trans people/activists fuck up their own messaging with confusing/ambiguous/self-contradicting rhetoric, you know?
Another major example imo, is using the single word “gender”, both to describe gender identity (something an individual person has), and gender roles (something a society has), sometimes in the same damn sentence.
The best way to ensure a discussion isn’t productive is to make sure that the ‘discussers’ are using the same terms, but are defining them differently, lol…
I never claimed to be an expert. I am admitting now that I am somewhat ignorant as to what the exact definitions are, but from what I understand from what my NB friend explained it is that if you transition from one gender to another that makes you trans. NB are neither gender so there was no transition between genders.
I guess one could make the argument that they transitioned from being gender-labeled to being non-gender, but IMO that’s a stretch in an attempt to label NB people as trans.
That being said, there is nothing wrong with being trans. I was just trying to make a distinction as was explained to me by a NB person.
I guess what they’re getting at is that if “non-binary” is considered a gender identity unto itself, then you could describe one being trans with the transition being “from man to non-binary”, for example.
Not necessarily. One can be non-binary and not be trans. I know someone that identifies as NB and they never “transitioned” into their current self. They’ve always been that way and never transitioned.
Edit: also, what’s with the vitriol? Is this such a contentious subject that you’re angry that I might have a view other than yours? Why does that make me an “asshole?”
Okay so like, 1% of nonbinary people don’t identify as trans but it’s generally accepted considered part of the trans umbrella and it’s fucked up to the vast majority of nonbinary people to say they arent trans… esp when there are tons of asshole transmeds trying to say that.
That sounds a lot like you lean more towards the medical side of trans. This is fine on its face but it can often lead to a lot of gatekeeping and such within and outside of the community.
The most common example is to have people only count as trans if they are taking medication and then limiting access to that medication to certain groups, effectively removing the classifier of “trans” from the person.
Judging someones anything purely by a certain standard leans into the No True Scotsman side of things and can damage the community and it’s members.
I appreciate that you’re willing to learn more on the topic either way. I don’t think you’re an asshole but basing if someone is trans purely medically is also something assholes do for asshole end goals. It’s less about you and more about the company that shares that opinion and the other opinions that company shares amongst themselves.
“I appreciate that you’re willing to learn more on the topic either way. I don’t think you’re an asshole but […]”
And I appreciate that you understand that not everyone knows everything. I apologize if I seemed in any way reductive or dismissive. That was not my intention. I was just saying what I learned from a NB person about their experience. I know that not everyone has similar experiences or opinions.
Learning is an essential part of being human :D I definitely still have more to learn either way.
It’s important to note that some NB people do consider themselves trans and some don’t… Which can get a bit confusing if you’re out of the space itself.
I just personally worry that any sort of blanket classification of NB people as non-trans can lead to the erasure that bisexual people experience. (Bisexual people are often called “gay but trying to hide it” even within LGBTQ+ spaces)
So true with the bi erasure; I have experienced that personally.
I, again, apologize for my ignorance. I didn’t realize the issues regarding the feelings people have about NB being trans or not. I have a limited experience with close friends explaining their views on the subject.
Being non-binary is not the same as being trans… and perhaps they were being downvoted for a different reason.
I always find it odd when people assume why someone is being downvoted. You never know why someone votes the way they do.
It can be. I’ve had two surgeries to neutralize the parts of my body that were gendered.
How’d you get access to that? It seems to be a major pain in the backside (at least here in the UK as a person afab) getting anyone to actually take NBs seriously in terms of the medical side of things.
I told them they were hurting my back, which had the advantage of being true. Also I saved up. Idc what people want to label shit as long as I’m able to do what I gotta do. In fact, I would argue the labels were the problem in the first place and we should stop making new ones and push the ones that exist back into the narrow context in which they’re actually useful.
not uncommon in California. plenty of nonbinary people get surgeries.
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I stand corrected; non-binary people are transgender. I apologize for my ignorance. I just didn’t know.
What I also don’t know is why you’re so angry. All that happened was I didn’t know something. I learned my mistake, apologized, and hope you’ll relax a little and realize that not everyone knows everything you do. Please don’t be mad at someone’s ignorance.
Maybe don’t speak so confidently on trans issues when you aren’t trans! Esp considering the transmed vibe you have given off, inadvertantly or no. Just stop speaking for other people.
And I rewrote the comment in caps not out of anger towards you, but out of a desire for clarity for anyone who reads it. Don’t take everything so personally. If you use transmed talking points, even inadvertantly, expect to be called an asshole. Same thing goes if you were to spout any bigoted talking points you didn’t understand.
Again, I said something out of ignorance. I learned from my mistake. You still insist on being a drama queen about it.
I hope you have a better day once you get over this drama.
hmm I wonder why I might be “dramatic” over a topic that impacts me and most of the people I love most. hmmm.
not buying your ignorance explanation anymore, you seem really dismissive.
Of course I’m going to eventually be dismissive toward someone that is antagonistic from the beginning. The second I lash back you play the victim. Get over yourself. You wanna see dismissive? Go …
How am I playing the victim when I am just calling you dismissive? Hmm
I’m not the gender I was assigned at birth. What’s your definition of trans then???
Gender identity doesn’t get assigned at birth. There is no “gender” field on a birth certificate.
Sex gets identified at birth (at the latest, usually before, during pregnancy, unless specifically requested to keep it secret).
Two reasons this is important to point out:
I very much agree with this point. My reaction there was mostly just a gut response to being excluded from trans spaces in the past for not being “trans enough” and I could’ve worded it better.
It just frustrates me how much trans people/activists fuck up their own messaging with confusing/ambiguous/self-contradicting rhetoric, you know?
Another major example imo, is using the single word “gender”, both to describe gender identity (something an individual person has), and gender roles (something a society has), sometimes in the same damn sentence.
The best way to ensure a discussion isn’t productive is to make sure that the ‘discussers’ are using the same terms, but are defining them differently, lol…
I never claimed to be an expert. I am admitting now that I am somewhat ignorant as to what the exact definitions are, but from what I understand from what my NB friend explained it is that if you transition from one gender to another that makes you trans. NB are neither gender so there was no transition between genders.
I guess one could make the argument that they transitioned from being gender-labeled to being non-gender, but IMO that’s a stretch in an attempt to label NB people as trans.
That being said, there is nothing wrong with being trans. I was just trying to make a distinction as was explained to me by a NB person.
I guess what they’re getting at is that if “non-binary” is considered a gender identity unto itself, then you could describe one being trans with the transition being “from man to non-binary”, for example.
That person’s understanding of trans identity is not common. Most nonbinary people consider themselves to be trans.
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Not necessarily. One can be non-binary and not be trans. I know someone that identifies as NB and they never “transitioned” into their current self. They’ve always been that way and never transitioned.
Edit: also, what’s with the vitriol? Is this such a contentious subject that you’re angry that I might have a view other than yours? Why does that make me an “asshole?”
Okay so like, 1% of nonbinary people don’t identify as trans but it’s generally accepted considered part of the trans umbrella and it’s fucked up to the vast majority of nonbinary people to say they arent trans… esp when there are tons of asshole transmeds trying to say that.
That sounds a lot like you lean more towards the medical side of trans. This is fine on its face but it can often lead to a lot of gatekeeping and such within and outside of the community.
The most common example is to have people only count as trans if they are taking medication and then limiting access to that medication to certain groups, effectively removing the classifier of “trans” from the person.
Judging someones anything purely by a certain standard leans into the No True Scotsman side of things and can damage the community and it’s members.
I appreciate that you’re willing to learn more on the topic either way. I don’t think you’re an asshole but basing if someone is trans purely medically is also something assholes do for asshole end goals. It’s less about you and more about the company that shares that opinion and the other opinions that company shares amongst themselves.
And I appreciate that you understand that not everyone knows everything. I apologize if I seemed in any way reductive or dismissive. That was not my intention. I was just saying what I learned from a NB person about their experience. I know that not everyone has similar experiences or opinions.
Learning is an essential part of being human :D I definitely still have more to learn either way.
It’s important to note that some NB people do consider themselves trans and some don’t… Which can get a bit confusing if you’re out of the space itself.
I just personally worry that any sort of blanket classification of NB people as non-trans can lead to the erasure that bisexual people experience. (Bisexual people are often called “gay but trying to hide it” even within LGBTQ+ spaces)
So true with the bi erasure; I have experienced that personally.
I, again, apologize for my ignorance. I didn’t realize the issues regarding the feelings people have about NB being trans or not. I have a limited experience with close friends explaining their views on the subject.
Thanks for the help. I love learning.
It’s not a “different opinion”, it’s denying people’s identities which can lead to people denying trans healthcare. It’s a huge asshole take.