And following your thread. How would you suggest Palestinians free themselves from the prison they’re all living in?
Or should they just be content with their lot?
Conflict is messy. People die. The nature of assymetric warfare necessitates a specific kind of fighting. And that’s what this is, really. Unless the Palestinians have bunkers full of modern military hardware they can use to go toe to toe with Israel with.
Killing 250 civilians by targeting a music festival and slitting the throats of civilians on the street and spitting on their corpses isn’t a result of conflict being “messy”. Stop justifying deliberate and systematic terrorist activity
Assymetric warfare is ugly as fuck because it has to be. And this conflict is assymetric as hell.
Both sides are trying to demoralize the enemy to gain what they want. War is diplomacy when all other methods have failed after all.
Unless Israel or the =est of the world wants to give Palestine an enormous cache of high tech weaponry they’ll fight like this because because it’s one of the few ways for them TO fight.
So they commit atrocities and Israel commits atrocities and round and round it goes
Saying war is messy is one of those things. Like “friendly fire”. Like all language describing all forms of war it fails utterly to convey the senselessness and inhumanity of the darkest parts of our nature.
There are no good sides of bad sides in this conflict. Each side is both, and the bitter reality is that a state of war or armed conflict is by its very nature atrocious. There’s just the desd, the living. And those who have been left behind.
Your first sentence captures it. All of this is driven by ignorance and religion, it’s the same shit that’s plagued that part of the world for generations
Stop trying to justify terrorism. Intentionally targeting and massacring civilians immediately makes you evil and the bad guy, no ifs or buts about it. Your cause loses any and all credibility when that’s how you choose to approach it.
You want Palestinians to be in a better place? Have them propose their own peace deal. Have them stop the terrorist attacks and work on bettering relations with Israel. Have them use the billion of dollars they get annually in foreign aid go towards schools, hospitals, roads, and culture. Have them establish diplomatic ties so they can at least sit down and talk with Israel. Have them rally the Arab world to sit down with Israel and respect the West Bank’s borders. There is so much they can do that doesn’t involve pure evil terrorist acts.
There’s rarely a simple “good guy” or “bad guy”, but the situation has clear causes that need to be acknowledged and addressed for the conflict to ever cease. The core problem right now is that the Palestinians are an aggrieved population that are denied basic human rights and political self-determination, resulting from the post-Holocaust reaction to grant swaths of land to the global Jewish population guarantee them political self-determination. Since then there’s a problem of political opportunists and, especially on the Israeli side, corporate interests, that benefit from the conflict itself and fostering extreme viewpoints based on antagonizing opposite sides of the conflict. There has to be a cultural migration towards non-antagonism, guaranteeing human rights for the Palestinians, de-escalating the conflict, and understanding that the core questions of each group’s identity basically boil down to ideological and religious allegiances that are more based on history/tradition than in good sense, since the whole us-vs-them tete-a-tete is ultimately based on these arbitrary (nonsensical) group identities in the first place. That all being said, the reason Israel so commonly is depicted as the “bad guy” in the conflict is because militarily, politically, economically, they have the upper hand on all fronts, and those facts express themselves in the overall death count in the conflict since its beginning, which is heavily weighted against the Palestinians.
I remember once upon a time in reddit I’d read insightful and nuanced comments like this all the time. The descent into the toilet bowl happened so gradually that you don’t know what you’ve got till it’s gone.
Western leftists, like their right wing counterparts, are very prone to propaganda. Massive propaganda campaigns by islamic countries like Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Iran, Pakistan, etc managed to convince western leftists that a literal terrorist group on the same level as ISIS is actually the good guy and that they’re the real victims. It took a horrific invasion and terrorist attacks that murdered nearly 1000 innocent civilians AND have all of the horrors captured on video to convince a portion of western leftists that maybe a terrorist group is really a terrorist group.
Right now the left is STILL split where a big chunk is still doubling down on the propaganda where they’re straight up celebrating and justifying the torture, rape, murder of civilians and the parading of their naked corpses, while another chunk is just starting to realize that maybe terrorists really are the baddies and so they take this “both sides bad” stance beause they’re not fully sure about it. I really hope it won’t take another horrific terrorist attack and the lives of another 1000 innocent civilians for western leftists to wake up and understand that Hamas IS the bad guy here. There’s no ifs or buts about it. There’s a lot to criticize Israel for, a lot, but there’s no “both sides” to this. Israel is infinitely better than Hamas.
The thing is that this isn’t new. Western leftist were also duped by Russia to believe that they were the good guys until they invaded Ukraine twice, and there’s still a part of the left that’s pro Russia. I feel like I’m taking crazy pills when I see leftists defend evil regimes like Iran, China, Russia, and even North Korea. It shouldn’t take atrocities for the western left or right to see evil and acknowledge it.
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I hear this argument a lot.
And following your thread. How would you suggest Palestinians free themselves from the prison they’re all living in?
Or should they just be content with their lot?
Conflict is messy. People die. The nature of assymetric warfare necessitates a specific kind of fighting. And that’s what this is, really. Unless the Palestinians have bunkers full of modern military hardware they can use to go toe to toe with Israel with.
But maybe there’s a better way. So what is it?
Killing 250 civilians by targeting a music festival and slitting the throats of civilians on the street and spitting on their corpses isn’t a result of conflict being “messy”. Stop justifying deliberate and systematic terrorist activity
Yes it is.
Assymetric warfare is ugly as fuck because it has to be. And this conflict is assymetric as hell.
Both sides are trying to demoralize the enemy to gain what they want. War is diplomacy when all other methods have failed after all.
Unless Israel or the =est of the world wants to give Palestine an enormous cache of high tech weaponry they’ll fight like this because because it’s one of the few ways for them TO fight.
So they commit atrocities and Israel commits atrocities and round and round it goes
Saying war is messy is one of those things. Like “friendly fire”. Like all language describing all forms of war it fails utterly to convey the senselessness and inhumanity of the darkest parts of our nature.
There are no good sides of bad sides in this conflict. Each side is both, and the bitter reality is that a state of war or armed conflict is by its very nature atrocious. There’s just the desd, the living. And those who have been left behind.
First thing they need to do is depose the terrorists organisation they willingly put in charge. I imagine negotiations would go smoother then.
The better way is to not make memes they fully blame only one side.
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Your first sentence captures it. All of this is driven by ignorance and religion, it’s the same shit that’s plagued that part of the world for generations
You don’t think the massive poverty, starvation, and lack of access to water and sanitation might play into it too?
The lack of progress caused by one problem is wholly responsible for the other.
Israel controls all of the water, food, and resources going in and out of Palestine. The condition of Palestine has been inflicted on them.
Stop trying to justify terrorism. Intentionally targeting and massacring civilians immediately makes you evil and the bad guy, no ifs or buts about it. Your cause loses any and all credibility when that’s how you choose to approach it.
You want Palestinians to be in a better place? Have them propose their own peace deal. Have them stop the terrorist attacks and work on bettering relations with Israel. Have them use the billion of dollars they get annually in foreign aid go towards schools, hospitals, roads, and culture. Have them establish diplomatic ties so they can at least sit down and talk with Israel. Have them rally the Arab world to sit down with Israel and respect the West Bank’s borders. There is so much they can do that doesn’t involve pure evil terrorist acts.
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There’s rarely a simple “good guy” or “bad guy”, but the situation has clear causes that need to be acknowledged and addressed for the conflict to ever cease. The core problem right now is that the Palestinians are an aggrieved population that are denied basic human rights and political self-determination, resulting from the post-Holocaust reaction to grant swaths of land to the global Jewish population guarantee them political self-determination. Since then there’s a problem of political opportunists and, especially on the Israeli side, corporate interests, that benefit from the conflict itself and fostering extreme viewpoints based on antagonizing opposite sides of the conflict. There has to be a cultural migration towards non-antagonism, guaranteeing human rights for the Palestinians, de-escalating the conflict, and understanding that the core questions of each group’s identity basically boil down to ideological and religious allegiances that are more based on history/tradition than in good sense, since the whole us-vs-them tete-a-tete is ultimately based on these arbitrary (nonsensical) group identities in the first place. That all being said, the reason Israel so commonly is depicted as the “bad guy” in the conflict is because militarily, politically, economically, they have the upper hand on all fronts, and those facts express themselves in the overall death count in the conflict since its beginning, which is heavily weighted against the Palestinians.
… Well said.
I remember once upon a time in reddit I’d read insightful and nuanced comments like this all the time. The descent into the toilet bowl happened so gradually that you don’t know what you’ve got till it’s gone.
Thank you. Yes, I definitely know that feeling.
Western leftists, like their right wing counterparts, are very prone to propaganda. Massive propaganda campaigns by islamic countries like Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Iran, Pakistan, etc managed to convince western leftists that a literal terrorist group on the same level as ISIS is actually the good guy and that they’re the real victims. It took a horrific invasion and terrorist attacks that murdered nearly 1000 innocent civilians AND have all of the horrors captured on video to convince a portion of western leftists that maybe a terrorist group is really a terrorist group.
Right now the left is STILL split where a big chunk is still doubling down on the propaganda where they’re straight up celebrating and justifying the torture, rape, murder of civilians and the parading of their naked corpses, while another chunk is just starting to realize that maybe terrorists really are the baddies and so they take this “both sides bad” stance beause they’re not fully sure about it. I really hope it won’t take another horrific terrorist attack and the lives of another 1000 innocent civilians for western leftists to wake up and understand that Hamas IS the bad guy here. There’s no ifs or buts about it. There’s a lot to criticize Israel for, a lot, but there’s no “both sides” to this. Israel is infinitely better than Hamas.
The thing is that this isn’t new. Western leftist were also duped by Russia to believe that they were the good guys until they invaded Ukraine twice, and there’s still a part of the left that’s pro Russia. I feel like I’m taking crazy pills when I see leftists defend evil regimes like Iran, China, Russia, and even North Korea. It shouldn’t take atrocities for the western left or right to see evil and acknowledge it.
Actual unhinged behavior. Touch grass.
“Don’t fall for propaganda that tries to tell you terrorists are the good guys!”
“OmG tHiS uNhInGed bEhAvIoR”
Maybe you should follow your own advice