That would homestly be nice. It’s not about Eurovision, but about sending a message. If Russia gets banned from many activities for invading a sovereign country, Israel should get the same treatment for doing what is (at best) the same.
“homestly”
What does Hammas should get for slaughtering 1200 people?
Contrary to what you seem to be suggesting, Hamas is not participating in the Eurovision Song Contest. Shocking, I know.
That’s already happening, I think.
Hamas *
Not trying to start a thing but I don’t remember the part of the Russia/Ukraine conflict where a faction of Ukrainian militants committed horrible atrocities against Russian civilians just trying to enjoy life.
The Israel/Russia comparison seems iffy at best…
Yes, I took out the really ignorant thing I said - I apologize for my prior retracted statement.
Funny you should mention that… Did you know that Israel has, on average, killed an equivalent of 9/11 every 10.6 days since October 7th, of which half are children?
Oh, and in terms of numbers, “as bad or worse than 9/11”… if you go by the numbers, it’s 766 civilians killed on October 7th vs 2600-3000 on 9/11. So, you’re not only off by a factor of 4 there, but you seem clueless how your analogy would look when describing Israels ongoing genocide.
Also, why not just use October 7th as a unit of reference. Israel has done an “October 7th”, on average, since then, every 3.2 days. And it’s still not a fair comparison, as it’s 50% children vs 5%.
Comparing Russia to Israel’s scale of war crimes is seriously cutting Israel some undeserved slack, even though it’d be a dumb contest of being the least shitty turd stain on humanity.
if you go by the numbers, it’s 766 civilians killed on October 7th vs 2600-3000 on 9/11
In a country that is 36 times smaller than the US. Look at what 9/11 caused psychologically on a societal level in the US, and how it affected the political decisions in the decade after (sadly).
In the end, Hamas did start the current war, and bears the main responsibility for the civilian deaths on both sides during it. At the same time, I loathe the current Israeli government, and do think that there have been war crimes committed in Gaza by the IDF, that need to be investigated. The thing is, the Israeli government can and will be replaced in the next election. The same is not possible for Hamas, who are just as detrimental to a two state solution.
Most people commenting in this thread seem to have it all figured out and have very clear opinions for a conflict that simply is not that easy to solve.
In the end, Hamas did start the current war, and bears the main responsibility for the civilian deaths on both sides during it.
That’s… what do you mean by “current war”? The rest of that take is arguably not as clear cut as you think it is. Hamas bears the responsibility for killing 766 civilians. Israel bears the responsibility for killing 30 000 civilians. If you start counting on October 7th, that is. The way you are wording it seems veeeery apologetic of genocide. That it’s somehow not the responsibility of those perpetrating it, but instead those who (in your opinion) threw the first rock?
That’s… what do you mean by “current war”?
The war of the last 4 months.
Hamas bears the responsibility for killing 766 civilians. Israel bears the responsibility for killing 30 000 civilians. If you start counting on October 7th, that is.
The count of 30k deaths in Gaza includes civilians and Hamas fighters (but Hamas doesn’t publish these numbers). But you subtract alleged Israeli military/police deaths on October 7th from Hamas’ death toll.
That it’s somehow not the responsibility of those perpetrating it, but instead those who (in your opinion) threw the first rock?
I said “main responsibility”. Of course Israel still has responsibility for the deaths in Gaza. But people act like Hamas didn’t anticipate Israels counterstrike exactly like it unfolded (not that I think that it is a good thing that Israel acted exactly in that way).
There has been an ongoing state of hostility since the colonisation and ethnic cleansing of Palestine by European settlers in 1948.
Poor Palestinians… Their fate is in the hands of the good citizens of Israel. 🙄
Palestinians are capable of voting and can vote Hamas out. Why should they not have an election? Hamas is willing to do it, the Palestinians are willing to do it, and the PA is too. Guess who DOESN’T concent to this?
Just more excuses and justifications for a war meant to genocide them…
Why should they not have an election?
Because Hamas doesn’t want an election. They are in power. They got rid of Fatah in Gaza. Do you think if there would be a free and open election in Gaza, Israel could have stopped it before October 7th?
At least Hamas stopped throwing their inner-Palestinian opposition off high-rise roofs since 2007, from what I heard. Now you might just mercifully get shot as an “Israeli spy”.
I’m all for a free Palestine, but the way there isn’t Hamas for gods sake.
The way there is by ending the occupation and allowing Palestinians to vote and be given their right to self determination.
But “Hamas” is such a convenient excuse when the conclusion is always Palestinians not voting and not having the right to vote. There is no need or justification for you to use Hamas as an excuse for this. This is the best chance to get Hamad out: to have them voted out by all-Palestinian elections.
The only side not wanting an election for Palestinians now is Israel, and has always been.
Palestinians deserve better than living on the kindness of the citizens of Israel, their occupiers.
You’re all for free Palestine? Then you need to really stand for Palestine and stop the “but Hamas!” rhetoric.
Honestly, I think we are not that far from each other.
Netanyahu propped up Hamas for years exactly because he knew that there wouldn’t be a unified Palestinian state as long as they are in charge. That was one of the ways his governments worked against the worked against a two-state solution.
You a wrong in thinking that Hamas is not oppressing Gazans just as much as Israel is though. They are the reason why there hasn’t been a democratic election in Gaza since 2006.
You’re right. It’s worse than Russia Ukraine. More than 6 times as many civilians have died in Gaza. It’s an active genocide.
Still wouldn’t justify an invasion, full stop, let alone one purposefully targeting civilians who have nothing to do with it.
Nice math /s
If October 7th was one 9/11 then I guess October 8, 9th, 10th… Until today would be about… Let’s say… Forty or fifty 9/11s?
Do you think that Russia would have been banned if Ukraine started the invasion by massacring hundreds of innocent civilians at a rave party in Russia, and took random tourists back home to Ukraine to rape them, and then spread videos of it all?
Now, Israel is all but innocent. But it is not 1:1 comparable
Indeed it’s not a 1 to 1 comparison. One country is ordered by the ICJ to stop committing a potential genocide, and the other isn’t.
Edit: added the word ‘potential’ to more accurately represent the ICJ ruling.
It has been ordered to PREVENT a hypothetical genocie, not to stop “committing a genocide”.
Israel has done enough bad shit that you don’t need to lie to prove your point
Who is committing the hypothetical genocide?
Russia started a war of aggression so it makes sense they are banned from Eurovision till that has been resolved.
Israel is committing war crimes on a scale that is rare in modern history, so also a good reason to be banned.
And bringing up the oktober 7 attacks kinda sounds hollow after the response from Israel. Hammas killed 1.139 and Israel killed well over 25.000.
Hamas committed a direct attack on civilians, without any military target in mind what-so-ever. Obviously this will be a serious crime against humanity in most people’s eyes that makes it harder to count Israel’s response as unwarranted, counting in their wrongdoings.
With the Rus-Ukr conflict, the same country is both the aggressor and the attacker that started the invasion. That makes it easier to see who the undoubtedly “bad guy” is.
- Hamas is not taking part in Eurovision.
- A war crime is a war crime and a genocide is a genocide, no matter the justification.
- Calling Hammas the aggressor ignores quite a bit of complicated history.
Hamas is the aggressor in this specific part of the almost 100 year old conflict, that resulted in the current circumstances.
What genocide are you referring to?
hamas are terrorists. all terrorism is a crime against humanity. but what israel is doing is also a crime against humanity. even the settlements could be considered such a thing. and i’m not even going to talk about the fact that palestinian refugees don’t have a right of return to their land, that opens a new definition of crime done by a state.
israel must be isolated, banning them from eurovision is a must for the organization. uefa and fifa should ban them as well from international competitions. but this isolation is already late and the current actions of israel reflect the inaction of the international community towards their many habitual crimes against palestinians.
Hamas committed a direct attack on civilians, without any military target in mind what-so-ever.
About 1/4th of the Israelis deaths on October 7th were members of the military. The IDF by it’s own reports has killed two civilians for every Hamas member, so 1/3rd of the deaths are military. They have killed at least 10k civilians in one month, so just a bit more than Russia did in the whole war but 10 times as much as Hamas managed! With those numbers let’s keep in mind that Hamas are terrorists while the IDF is an organised army of a democratic state which claims to uphold human rights even in war times.
So yeah, neither side gets a medal from me for holding back against civilians.
I’m disappointed that we are both snek. I maintain that I’m spookier than you.
Btw Hamas
mostlyattacked military installations, military infrastructure, and military targets. Not an excuse for killing civilians, but I see this piece of misinformation being thrown around a lot and I wonder where it came from.Ah yes, my favorite military installation, a music festival.
deleted by creator
Euro-Med Mon has been found to misquote and use falsified statistics several times, why are you relying on a third party to tell you the news from the press release when it is available publicly online on the ICJ website?
Thats just complete BS. Everyone can read the statement from the ICJ. And no, your claim is not part of it. So maybe stop spreading lies on the internet. Its not like this whole conflict is easy to discuss considering facts, but watering the discussion with lies doesn’t help anyone.
You think this started on October 7th? What about the years beforehand of deaths? Do you need someone to bring out the chart again comparing civilian deaths for the last few decades?
Another difference is that Russia attacked another Eurovision country. I don’t know why Israel is even in Eurovision, but Palestine definitely isn’t.
Might as well ban Germany alongside too. Our government claimed that the case brought forth by South Africa was “without any basis” the moment the hearing at the ICJ ended. Now that the ICJ has demanded preliminary measures and explicitly stated that the Palestinians are at a plausible risk of genocide, the government tried to spin-doctor it, that “without any basis” would be a normal way of communicating different opinions on a legal case. Oh and on the day of the hearing the German genocide against the Herero and Nama people in todays Namibia had it’s 120 years anniversary. The German government did not deem it necessary to adress the fact in any formal way to Namibia or anyone else.
Except for 2018 the last decade was a total embarassement anyways and the spot should be taken by a country whose artists actually make it by ability instead of the spot being paid for.
Germany is one of the biggest humanitarian donators and took many refugees from the region. The foreign ministry refused to call it a Holocaust - which is just on another level. The commitee of the Herero and Nama also critisized the critique on germany as populistic and without legal basis and double standard. The defense of Israel is a state doctrine, also based on history, so it might be a little more complicated than a simple good and bad.
Oh, right, charity.
I grew up with the stories about how in Fascist Portugal the “ladies” of the handful of priviledged families who exploited a crushingly poor country were big charitable givers.
Act with cold calous cruelty but all it takes is to give away some crumbs and socially you’re lauded as a moral paragon.
Funny that you compare Germany to fascist dictators now, its one of the few countries which actually worked its past and acknowledged it. Support for a Israel is a double sided sword in that regard, just dropping them is definitely not an option. Germany currently houses 3.3 million refugees and paid over 24 billion in foreign aid. Honestly, what do you expect?
It’s pretty obvious from its continued and unwavering support for a nation led by Fascists who openly describe as “human animals” the neigbouring people from a different etnicity which they have oppressed for over half a century and are now outright massacring, commiting all manner of war crimes in doing so, that the “never again” that the German elites claimed to have learned is not at all the Humanist “nothing like this should ever be allowed to happen again to any people because of their etnicity” (which would see Germany react towards Israel as they did towards Russia when it invaded Ukraine) but rather the very specific and Racist “We should not have done that to Jews”.
I too used to believe as you do, but what we are seeing right now in their actions, especially the massive contrast in their reaction to the victimizing of the Ukranians by Russia and the already much larger victimizing of Palestinians by Israel, is that whatever the German leadership has “learned” was not the Humanitarian Principle but something else altogether and the most obvious explanation for their very overt support of the Genociders in this specific situation is that it depends on the etnicity of the victims and the perpetrators whether such a massacre is acceptable or not in the eyes of said German leadership, which is pure, unadulterated, racism.
At this point Germany is activelly siding with Fascists doing the same style of action as the Nazis (though not yet the scope, but the continuing blocade of Food, Water & Energy to Gaza might very well lead to that). That is not the actions of a land whose leadership has genuinelly learned the lesson that massacring people because of their etnicity is Evil.
When it really mattered Germany showed that not only it’s doesn’t at all care for the plight of the victims but even activelly supports the genociders if the etnicity of the victims is not a favored one whilst that of the genociders is. One can then only conclude that all that “charity” was not done for humanist reasons (no humanist would support Israel after all they’ve done in the last month) and must have been the other reason for overtly doing “charity” - the cold and calculated managing of the image one projects.
Hmm, I think I get your point. Have to rethink that, ty
Germany is also a major supplier of weapons and military tech to Israel. This includes donating submarines, where the specs are secret, but it is likely submarines capeable of launching nuclear missiles.
Most of the humanitarian infrastructure got destroyed by Israel multiple times and Germany also announced to stop UNRWA funding over the allegations against 10 former UNRWA employees. Nobody demanded them to speak of “Holocaust” in relationship to Gaza, but acknowledging that it is possible that Israel ist intending to commit genocide, is commiting genocide and most definetely has been commiting a great deal of war crimes, is repeatedly rejected by the German government.
The “state doctrine” shows exactly where the problem lies. Germany is using Israel as “proof” of having learned from its past and is happy to commit and help commiting atrocities in the name of Israel. Jews that are critical of Israel are excluded from public discourse, are excluded from arts and culture, have their rights to demonstrations taken away, are accused of antisemitism and in one case also jailed for demonstrating against Israels war on Gaza. So the German government is even commiting many acts of antisemitism while claiming to defend people from antisemitism. Also antisemitism that is rampant in Germanys mainstream society is defendend and pushed under the rug, while trying to paint antisemitism as an issue “imported” through migration from muslim countries.
Here is an articel that goes in depth about it, and provides numerous examples. For instance the former head of the interior intelligence, that is supposed to fight political extremism has been initially defended by the federal anti-antisemitism officer. Meanwhile he was and still is spurting antisemitic conspiracies on twitter.
https://jewishcurrents.org/the-strange-logic-of-germanys-antisemitism-bureaucrats
It is so typical of German governments to pretend that Germany is the worst in the world and to make up for it ends up helping facists. That was basically what happened with Russia with NordStream. It is also very much what seems to happen with Israel today. Obviously the creation of Israel was in a large part Germanys fault due to the Holocaust and Germany has a moral obligation to make up for it. However that should mean no more genocides and not do everything for Israel, including supporting a government, which openly calls for genocide in parts.
We should have made up for it by giving a part of Germany to European Jews who wanted a state of their own. The Allies should have made us doing so.
I didn’t know about this, thanks for bringing attention to it.
Sadly the German elites seem to have learned the “Never again” lesson in a racist way (Jews are like “us”, not like “them”) rather that humanitarian (nothing like this should ever again be done to anybody anywhere because of their etnicity), hence this continued reaction of unwavering support of Israel against the Palestinians (as in the view of the racist German power elites it’s “those like us” vs “them”) and the contrasting reaction to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine were the victims were “those like us”.
In a humanitarian view both situations are unnacceptable and the one in Gaza is worse because of the intensity, numbers and sheer arbitratrity of civilian killings, but in a racist’s eyes the etnicity of the perpetrators and the victims is what shapes the acceptability it not of murder, hence what’s going on in Ukraine is unnacceptable for the German government whilst what’s going on in Gaza is acceptable.
To my great dissapointment, it seems that whilst Nazism was forced to leave Germany, the rabid racist thinking of it has never left the hearts of the German elites.
It is a bit worse than that. Antisemitism is still strong in German mainstream society. The blind support for Israel is used as “proof” that that isnt the case and now antisemitism is framed as something “imported” through immigration. German anti-antisemitism officers repeatedly criticised jewish people who voiced criticism about Israel or called out antisemitism in German politics. They claimed these jewish people to be “inconsiderate” to the German way of dealing with its history.
Here is an in depth article about the whole ordeal if you are interested:
https://jewishcurrents.org/the-strange-logic-of-germanys-antisemitism-bureaucrats
Progressive and critical jewish voices are ignored, shunned and sometimes silenced in Germany.
and they wonder why people don’t like our government.
The opposition (CDU) wouldn’t be handling it any better.
yup, every single party is utterly incompetent. some very much more than others, but they all suck ass.
Simply removing them on the grounds of not being European should be easy enough and have happened as soon as they were let it. Same with Australia.
So you also want to kick out all the Arab states because they’re “not European”? The EBU has always included the whole Mediterranean. It has Arab founding members.
Yes
And what’s that supposed to achieve, besides appeasing your xenophobia?
What does that have to do with Xenophobia? You a liberal throwing around baseless accusations?
Not that I care about the political show of Eurovision, but it’s made for Europe. Meaning only Europeans should participate.
Not that I care about the political show of Eurovision, but it’s made for Europe. Meaning only Europeans should participate.
It is made by the EBU, for its broadcasting area. That has always, since the very start, included the whole of the Mediterranean.
Not to mention that musically the Arabs are deeply intertwined with Europe due to millennia of cultural exchange over the highway called the Mediterranean. Morocco participated in 1980, but generally Arabs boycott the contest because Israel participates – but that doesn’t make them non-members of the EBU.
What, in the everloving fuck, but xenophobia could make you want to kick out founding members of the EBU. Do you also want to kick out Turkey? When you have a party and your direct neighbour wants to come, and traditionally was part of it, do you suddenly decide to slam the door into their face saying “you live on the wrong side of the backyard pool”?
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Nice speech, but I do not care.
Yes I’d kick Turkey out too. As much as Turks want to pretend, they’re not European either.
Ok xenophobia it is, then. You are literally advocating to ethnically purify the EBU.
Shall we also kick the Spaniards, Greeks and practically all of the Balkan out because their music is too “oriental”, not adequate for your refined northwestern European taste?
They’re part of EBU. Eurovision is an EBU thing.
I know it’s not really about Eurovision, but honestly who cares about Eurovision
There are dozens of us! Dozens!
But seriously, it’s the gay musical Olympics, what’s not to love? (Unless you’re from Germany/UK in which it’s a point of national pride to dismiss Eurovision, lol?)
Only because Germany/UK is dismissed by Eurovision. Sam Ryder was robbed 2022
And no way did Lord of the Lost deserve last place 2023. UK might have.
LOTL was truly robbed last year, they were one of my faves.
An incredible technical performance! So well choreographed and played beautifully. I 100% agree.
No, Germany loves to watch Eurovision, we don’t care, that our own country sucks all the time. By now it’s more of a meme and people are betting, how bad it’s gonna be this year.
I, for one, think that given the recent history and the farce that was the Electric Callboy situation we should from now on send metal acts with steadily increasing levels of heavyness until Europe capitulates.
(The “Electric Callboy situation” was the NDR judging that this song was “not suited for radio play”. It’s one of the most eurovision things ever produced. German radio stations commented the situation by playing it on heavy rotation)
Oh yeah that whole thing was so absurd. Like…it’s so radio friendly, I don’t get it?!? And God they are so good too!! Saw them live last year, one of the most energetic shows I’ve ever seen, period! Germany has so much great music.
Glad to hear y’all are having fun with it! Truly, last year’s results surprised me and made me think Germany might actually be cursed…
Agreed. That song was great! It absolutely deserved to come in the top 15 or so. https://youtu.be/5I9CYu668jA
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I’m British and we’re obsessed with Eurovision, we also enjoy losing.
This is such a great way of putting it! Gave me a chuckle.
I don’t care about it, but 162 million people watched it last year 🤷
For fellow Americans… That’s almost 50% more than the Super Bowl (113 million in 2023).
No no, you have to say it like “that’s more people than 32 ice cream trucks full of baby elephants than the Super Bowl”.
The entire country of sweden
As a swede I can tell you that statement is not true.
So whole of Sweden -1
And my brother. And many of my friends. And many of their friends. And my brother’s friend. I don’t know how deep this shit goes.
Not even close.
My girlfriend goes absolutely nuts for it. We tune into the national selections.
The songs are usually pretty good and it’s cute AF to see her getting worked up.
who cares about Eurovision
Lmao are you joking
Every single Eurovision ever has been justified by this song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBAdOlQPbwg
(They were not the winners.)
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Very good, we need more of that. Countries which openly and actively do genocide should at least feel that the world thinks it’s not OK.
Based. Fuck israel
what if they choose someone who sings about wanting a two state solution
They’re not gonna. The broadcaster that represents Israel in Eurovision even shared a song on twitter with children singing “Within a year we will annihilate everyone” in Gaza. Before deleting it fearing it would make them complicit in genocide.
https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/11/20/israeli-children-singing-annihilate-gaza/
I’m American so I have never followed Eurovision. I always assumed it was European only. Are there many none European countries that participate? The USA doesn’t right?
Israel and Australia participate.
Israel has been since 1973 because their national broadcaster is part of the European Broadcasting Union.
Australia has had a huge cult following and was initially only allowed to join for a one-off year in 2015, but because of the success they’ve been allowed to take part every year since.
Au has a lot of immigrants from the EU - but also our international TV station SBS is part of the EU broadcast union
The whole Mediterranean is part of the EBU, at least Lebanon and Morocco are even founding members – the list isn’t easy to read because it lists when a broadcaster joined, not when the country first joined with any broadcaster.
The Arab nations boycott the ESC though because Israel participates. So, please, if you suspend Israel do it early enough so that those states have an opportunity to do a national selection.
Au has a lot of immigrants from the EU - but also our international TV station SBS is part of the EU broadcast union
The Eurovision Song Contest is organized by the European Broadcasting Union (EBU) an organization set up to regulate TV tech. In short they exist to make sure a TV bought in Spain also works in Sweden. As such the EBU also grants full membership to countries that are not part of Europe but have strong economic ties with the continent and therefore are part of the European Broadcasting Area. That’s how we got Israel in the contest. Australia also competes because (a) they are an associate member (b) they have an long history of airing the contest even before they competed © they spend a large sum of money every year to make the EBU forget where exactly Australia is located.
The US doesn’t participate but a couple of years ago NBC bought the rights and tried to mount an “American Song Contest”. It didn’t work all that well because it was hamstrung by the rigid structure of American network TV. The ESC works (in part) because it is three nights only and they tried to make an entire season of television.
Australia is in the contest. Do what you want with that info.
Everyone should turn up but only sing songs about how Israel are a bunch of cunts.
Optics aren’t great given how pale and blonde the guy is. And Eurovision is very trivial. But yeah, maybe they should be barred from entering? Are any other participating countries doing anything awful at the moment, I wonder.
I wasn’t going to watch it, because of the way the results are biased by the “experts”. The difference between the public voting and the jury voting are too different and unfair. I would only watch if they transitioned to viewer voting only.
But now I have an extra reason not to.
Eh, the jury voting was brought in because votes tend to always go to neighbouring countries, regardless of how good their act was. It’s just an imperfect system placed on top of another.
But the jury votes also always go to the neighbors, so I don’t see how it improves it tbh.
Now instead of regular fun and transparent circlejerks, we have weird untransparent jury votes. Great solution
Maybe times have changed (except for a few like Greece - Cyprus). I feel the public votes are more diverse and true than the jury.
That aside, it is no surprise that culturally, neighboring countries are indeed closer music wise that distant countries. They have different music hits in Portugal than they have in Finland
Possibly, but there is undoubtedly a political element to it. The UK was practically dead last for over a decade, thanks to Brexit and the Iraq war, and only really clawed favour back from helping Ukraine. Frankly, the UK regularly sends shite over and uses it as a comedy show/excuse to drink, so they don’t particularly deserve anything better, but it’s hard to deny political ties when it comes to votes.
They have actually changed the rules! Audiences choose who moves on to the final now - there are no jury votes in semis anymore. Only for the final.
Yep. That’s only half a step though. I’ll be back when they remove the jury from all votes.
No, back to the roots, please! Only in the native language of the countries, all singers accompanied by the same orchestra, and only jury votes. It used to be a very unique competition, but now it’s just meh. Boring. Thanks, but no thanks.
Hell, no. That gives a huge advantage to Ireland and the UK for being understandable, and even more advantages for the European languages that are often considered “beautiful” like the Latin derivatives.
The competition was meant for composers and authors, not for musicians. Composition and lyrics only. Not performance, not voices or “beauty” of languages.
That’s why I oppose public voting, because the audience tends to be very superficial. Have a jury of experts in composition and poetry. No music business, but pure art. In the beginning, the jurors voted primarily on the sheet music, without having even seen the performance.
That’s a lot of Swedish music stars who will not be allowed entry into the US, UK or Germany, where their statements are classified as antisemitism under the IHRA definition. They can still tour Cuba and Venezuela, though.
Well rather not be apart of genocide then travel to uk
Cunt looks like he’s made out of haunted pasta
I guess the no sunlight in Sweden hit them hard. Bros paler than 99% of Ireland
Well duh. The majority of Sweden is much more north than Ireland.
I wouldn’t personally use the words “hit them hard” though. Nothing wrong with being pale. It’s not like it matters in any way.
