Real talk - How will not paying convince conservatives to be for student debt forgiveness? They’re the ones blocking loan forgiveness, and this is a demographic of people that does lean toward them, so why would they listen?
IMHO, showing up to vote is what would actually put the fear of god into these politicians. Not paying a loan will totally fuck up your ability to rent, get a credit card, get reasonable car insurance, and even get a job. Bad credit is no joke.
It won’t, but I hope most of these people realize the only way it’ll change is consistently going to vote and keeping their family updated on what to vote on.
you voted for the most liberal candidate you had available for presidency already.
Yeah these people are only hurting themselves. The US isn’t hurting for cash and sooner or later those loans you’re avoiding turn into garnishments.
And they’re not eligible for bankruptcy relief either
Correction: You can but it’s hard. It’s a little easier under this administration though
https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/17/politics/student-loan-debt-bankruptcy/index.html
As far as I know indentured servitude is illegal in this country already, I’m pretty sure that’s reason enough not to pay.
They are conscientious objectors in that sense and I’m cheering them on.
Except, if don’t pay they don’t even need to sue to get a default judgment and garnish your wages.
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/can-my-student-loan-creditor-garnish-my-wages.html
I checked and there is one change. It’s easier to discharge through bankruptcy (although not simple by any means) under the current administration although without congressional change it’s still an uphill battle there too.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/17/politics/student-loan-debt-bankruptcy/index.html
I am applauding the act of resistence, I don’t think the fact that garnishing wages is a consequence should dissuade those from trying to take a part in resisting. It doesn’t make the debt culture we saddle our children with, for a chance at survival, any less immoral. Any resistence in such a culture is therefore a moral obligation.
strikes* will put the fear of god into politicians, if we vote they will just give us all crappy options.
also the benefit of not paying off those loans is they are actually left with a bit more money.
strikes* will put the fear of god into politicians,
Striking of matches, maybe.
Not paying a loan will totally fuck up your ability to rent, get a credit card, get reasonable car insurance, and even get a job.
I don’t agree to credit checks from landlords.
I have reasonable car insurance.
I don’t agree to credit checks from employers.
I do have a credit card and I test it once a month on a small purchase, usually coffee.
Any other dire warnings you wish to inform me about that do not match the real world?
Don’t match the real world? Just because you have been lucky to avoid that stuff doesn’t mean that a LOT of us haven’t experienced that stuff.
Credit checks are common in housing markets with limited supply, all the largest auto insurance companies in the US now do credit checks, and jobs in industries like finance and security often add a credit check during your pre-hire background check.
And god forbid you ever need some serious financial products like another loan. That is off the table.
I get the feeling that dude is in his 20s. Bless his heart.
Yeah, there aren’t a lot of Americans over 35 that don’t realize how hard a bad credit score can fuck you. There’s no shortage of very real horror stories around this stuff.
Must have somehow missed this repeatedly my entire life. Totally a real thing I am sure.
It depends on your age and where you live. You may have gotten into housing, an insurance policy, or your gig before this trend took off.
It’s now a big enough problem that a handful of states have started to draft and pass legislation that bans credit checks for insurance, housing, and employment. So, if you’re in a place like CA or MA, you might not notice that this is fair game in most of America.
That said, a lot of this fuckery is still super common and fair game in most of the US.
Housing: 6 years ago
Car insurance: I think about 3 maybe 2.
Job: 3.5 years ago
Do not live in CA or MA or a state that has rules like that. In fact 11 years ago a landlord did ask me and I said no. She backed down when I said I wasn’t going to bend on the issue. Of all the places in my life this was the only one that asked.
But yeah you continue to worry
Can’t say I blame them at this point but the consequences of that are probably going to suck for them.
Paycheck to paycheck and your payment is more than you spend on groceries. And your loan has doubled in size because of interest. And will continue to grow. Meanwhile your credit is garbage and you can’t get ahead. Bad credit? Crappy car, needs fixes. Higher interest rate. I’m 41 and trying so hard to get ahead of it.
At the very least cap the interest for people. Or how about no interest. You can’t chip away at something that’s growing faster than you can swing at it.
Best we can do is crippling debt in a dystopian shitscape to pay off the degree they lied to you about being able to get a good enough job to raise a family because you got that degree, taking on tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt.
I agree with you here. I’ve always said, if you’re putting in work to get an education, the interest on the loan should be zero. Yes, zero.
Over time it means the lender (read: govt) loses money, so what. The increased tax income for an educated employee more than accounts for that. Even if it didn’t, what’s the downside to an educated workforce for anyone but those in power?
Education should not be a for-profit scheme.
The government has no problem giving away 0% interest loans, often with principal forgiveness, for tens of millions of dollars to fund infrastructure. How is university not a similar investment in the future?
Yeah, in fact it’s almost trivial to argue that education in something you’re interested in results in better/more efficient infrastructure.
As an example, California uses loops of wire embedded in the asphalt at lights to sense if cars are there, meaning less delays for people because no light is green at an empty direction of an intersection.
Though that’s only mildly high tech, some educated electrical engineers had to come up with it, and it makes life better for us all, saving gas, and reduces CO2 for idling cars as well.
Counter argument–having bad credit is also meaningless if you can never afford to purchase something like a house, and you’re ok with purchasing used vehicles and renting from smaller landlords and not property management companies.
Credit is a fucking scam to begin with. It’s insane what companies like Equifax have gotten away with.
It’s a far less bad scam than the previous version of be a white guy that’s friends with the local bank.
No. At least under that shit system your information wasn’t hacked and you didn’t have zombie debt.
Wholeheartedly agree. And then we go around panicking about the authoritarian social credit shit China has. Mfer we’ve have social credit for decades
Respectfully, that is apples to oranges. You are unable to function as a regular person in China with bad social credit. Here you can’t get loans and sometimes your employer sees.
In my state all the lenders came to the legislature several years back and make a big push to try and come up with a new type of credit score that was primarily based on driving history. Apparently, driving history is like a way more accurate predictor of your credit worthiness than your financial history. So I guess my point is that they will scrape data anyway then can get it and use it to judge how much you have to pay to access money.
Comparing the American president to a cartoon character doesn’t stop you from being able to fly. You have no idea how deep China’s social credit system goes if you think it’s at all comparable to just getting higher interest rates.
The consequences already suck. It’s damned if you do damned if you don’t. At least I can keep (some of) my money this way.
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Yeah, there’s going to be a whole lot of upset people when the government inevitably starts garnishing their wages.
Yes they certainly do, ask me how I know.
Definitely encourages people to work under the table.
Part of the reason there’s such a push for cashless payment.
Not very effective when they can just garnish your wages, your taxes, and your social security. I’m fully on the side that believes student loans desperately need reform, and Biden’s forgiveness plan getting shot down has definitely negatively impacted my life, but I’m not dealing with ruined credit and the stress that not paying causes when I know they’ll find a way to get their money unless I basically throw away my career to work cash jobs. That would impact my life way worse in the long run.
Right now borrowers are incentivized to keep low income jobs and avoid settling down (they can’t buy houses anyway) which isn’t exactly excellent from a state perspective.
That kind of sounds like when people say that anyone on welfare could be doing better but chooses not to so they can keep their benefits. Of course there will always be people right on the cusp who determine that the little extra money they’d make by working more hours or trying to get a slightly better job won’t make up for what they’d lose (either in benefits or in savings from a lower student loan payment), but anyone who can afford to do significantly better generally tries to do that for a lot of reasons.
Sure but right now you can essentially defer forever under 60k, 60k vs 120k I absolutely agree, but that usually happens in steps and $60k to $70k you might not see a benefit.
Not factoring in the borrowers that still have student loans from a decade or two or three ago and can’t just upend their now-established lives by halting payment. They’ll be forced to keep paying and keep that turd floating, not by choice, mind you.
borrowers are incentivized to keep low income jobs
I don’t believe this at all.
I used to calculate garnishments in a previous job. There is a minimum take home pay that you have to get.
A low income job does mean less garnished wages, because you don’t make enough to get over the threshold.
It’s a similar method that some dead beat parents do to game the system out of having to pay child support. Sometimes they supplement with work under the table so they aren’t living crappy lives and sometimes they just live crappy lives. You can live a long time off of spite.
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Reminder that student loans, like mortgages, are rolled up into an investment vehicle called the SLABS, or Student Loan Asset Backed Securities. Student Loan Forgiveness would tank the value of the SLABS, and I guarantee you our elected officials have money tied up in them. Since a student loan can’t be discharged through bankruptcy, it’s typically a very safe investment.
It is absolutely HORRIBLE and immortal to have an investment that gains money of others being in debt. That is SO fucked up
What… What do you think a loan fundamentally is?
Fucked up?
Welcome to capitalism.
Inb4 all the MBA nerds come to chime in about why making money off of someone else’s failure is a good thing…
It smacks of the subprime lending that caused the Great Recession all those years ago. History doesn’t repeat but it often rhymes.
Especially when it’s funded through our own taxes.
Government student loans can’t be discharged.
I got private student loans, and eventually stopped paying and they were discharged. The discharge counted as income on my taxes, but still way cheaper than paying criminal interest for 30 years.
It may be technically possible to get private student loans discharged, but from what I understand, they’ve made it incredibly difficult.
Mine were super easy. I simply didn’t pay them for a few years and they wrote them off. It hit my credit like a freight train and since the discharged debt counted as income April was pretty rough that year.
Pretty soon the defaults will fall off my credit report and I’ll be 100% recovered, though likely blacklisted by the bank.
And the funny thing is if they’d just let me defer payments and freeze interest for a few years like I’d requested, I’d actually have the income now to make payments. I didn’t want to not pay my loans, but food and rent came first.
I should do is make a SLAB composed of borrowers who are never going to pay back and ones that certainly will. Then convince pension managers to buy those SLABs from me.
I mean… right or wrong, FAAFO with banks does not sound fun, I hope they have an exit strategy like to live with someone else as they drop off the grid.:-|
I agree. More power to them, but I’m way too risk adverse to personally stop paying. I genuinely hope they can induce some change. I guess that makes me a scab.
I hope this debt is forgiven someday, but I don’t have enough faith in the powers that be to risk my future on it.
I mentioned to someone else replying at the same time as you did:
Don’t beat yourself up -
that’s the banks job.Like if someone scams you and you follow them to their house, break in and take your money back… you become the assailant at that point - e.g. if someone spots you, maybe not even the owner, and shoots you dead or whatever, then the fact that it’s their house is all that police are going to see and care about.
Movies and TV shows about vigilantes are fun to watch but the reality is that it is quite dangerous. Right or wrong, they have the entire weight of society behind them.
Find a way to resist that does not involve the likelihood of losing everything you have.:-)
Yeah, much as I’d like to participate, I’m scared into being a scab. Life is hard enough as it is.
Don’t beat yourself up -
that’s the banks job.Like if someone scams you and you follow them to their house, break in and take your money back… you become the assailant at that point - e.g. if someone spots you, maybe not even the owner, and shoots you dead or whatever, then the fact that it’s their house is all that police are going to see and care about.
Movies and TV shows about vigilantes are fun to watch but the reality is that it is quite dangerous. Right or wrong, they have the entire weight of society behind them.
Find a way to resist that does not involve the likelihood of losing everything you have.:-)
What if they’ve built a system where peaceful resistance is encouraged but designed to be ineffective so the only way to resist effectively is to risk everything you have?
Then feel free to do so, bc at that point you know what you are risking, and more importantly what you are fighting for.
The banks won’t really care either way ofc. But you will notice, and at the end of the day that’s what matters.:-) There are worse things to lose than merely your life - like your soul (center of being).
Although… it wasn’t the banks who caused the colleges to scam students into getting loans. And most professors and staff at the colleges resisted the conversion into becoming for-profit - many (those who could) literally quit over it. The ones who caused that though have likely already cashed out and walked away.
But even they weren’t the ones who changed our economy from being one that worked FOR the people into one that used people to build more wealth for the already obscenely wealthy, and in so doing not hiring people with college degrees. As so many documentaries (like Inequality For or All) explain, that was Reagan on behalf of Republicans who broke the backs of the unions, and everything since has only reinforced and strengthened those steps.
In this place where I live, even every act of compassion is a form of resistance
That’s so sad… and yet all the more worthwhile then - dare to be different:-).
As someone who was bright-eyed and bushy tailed when I started college, I was not expecting that being a student was a constant bleed of money.
The college partnered with some student loan vendor? and that vendor issued only a debit card which only worked on campus at specific ATMs. There was no apps for this shit. There was no bank withdrawal. Is was only the card and the ATM. They charged a fee for every use of it. So when I need to get that tuition money, I had to pay to get my money. It limits at 300$ so you’d have to repeatedly get charged to take multiple sums out. Tuition was exorbitant too. Didn’t include cafeteria or anything else. Books also out of pocket and 3-4 new ones each semester. We were also forced to pay ‘health fees’ for access to the newly built rec center, which you paid whether you ever stepped foot there or not.
Look it’s one thing to have a ‘way about things’ but by this point it was more like an excuse to fleece us for everything we had and more.
After 2.5 years of it I finally had to get a job on top of everything just to afford to be there. The job then took most of my time and it was not easy working around the school schedule. I finally had to quit school. What did I do? I stayed in my job because it was the only income source I had as a young person without a college degree and at least I was literally getting working experience.
Tell me, who benefited here? You can argue it was me, but I have no degree in my hand. I have now almost 20,000$ on top of my original amount (40k) due to interest. I’ve always struggled to make ends meet and I’m essentially trapped with this debt. Is this really fair? I didn’t know the true consequence of these loans adding up. It was only after I got so far and saw how big a problem was growing that I had to bail. There was no way I could afford it. I was a kid, I was told I had to go to college and I had no choices in life unless I did that. So much pressure growing up.
I was not expecting that being
a studentalive was a constant bleed of money.
Civil disobedience is making a comeback.
I’m here for it!
Beene added that there are other options if you want to make your viewpoint on student debt forgiveness clear that don’t involve risking your financial future, like protesting and writing to your elected representatives.
“But have you considered begging?”
All of that relies on the belief that anyone with any significant student loans have a financial future. Most of us are so far up shit creek, give me that civil disobedience paddle.
And when you consider that the debts are packaged into an investment vehicle, there’s no fucking way they’re going to vote on student loan forgiveness. Don’t want the value of all those securities to tank.
I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again: if you need your citizens to have a post-secondary education to keep your country humming along, MAKE IT AS EASY AS POSSIBLE FOR PEOPLE TO GET THE EDUCATION AND NOT BE BURDENED WITH BULLSHIT DEBT. FREE COLLEGE. FREE UNIVERSITY. FREE TRADES SCHOOL.
It’s already free. Everything is on the Internet. We need employers to step up and put in their own tests, questions, etc instead of relying on degrees to create a pool of potential employees. Some places already do this.
We need employers to step up and put in their own tests, questions, etc instead of relying on degrees
Oh yeah, let’s put control of post-secondary education into the hands of corporations. What could possibly go wrong?
This doesn’t put education into the hands of corporations. It’s here already… on the internet. You can watch entire Standford or MIT courses for nothing right now.
That’s not education lol
I learned new programming languages online using courses like those. I use them fairly consistently at work. I also went to a 4 year university prior to that. Learning online was both cheaper and faster. Also, a few university classes I took were 100% online. No difference except for cost.
I test those that I hire now with real-world problems - all of which have college degrees due to company policy to limit which resumes I can see based on requirements. There’s a huge difference between these people - some don’t know anything and some are fairly well-versed. This standard education thing isn’t working.
Online lectures are a tool you can use to educate yourself; the lectures aren’t educating you.
Education is an action done by a human being.
If that’s your definition then it’s the same as college. Most courses I took had 200-300 students in a large auditorium where we just sat there a listened to the professor, took notes, read the book (that cost $300) and took a few tests. I also took a few online courses in obtaining my degree. Educating myself later was faster and more efficient.
Neither is living at a party institution for four years
Cool lie 👍 hope you don’t actually believe that
LOL! Love it
All these comments whining about how this will hurt credit scores, pay attention to the laws that we have currently. Student loan companies cannot take any action on unpaid loans for 1 year from the start of repayment. Interest still accrues but they cannot garish wages like all these morons are saying. That means for most, you don’t need to pay anything until after the next election. Use the only leverage we have and don’t pay back the loan for at least a year. Make them earn the vote and do something else to cancel these loans
One year isn’t a long time. That’s quite the limb to go out on without any kind of certainty that it won’t ruin your credit in a year.
Fuck credit you are never going to own a new car or a house.
You know nothing about me, friend.
i think it was the royal “you”
You go from saying it won’t happen to saying you have a year countdown. Make up your mind. No one is saying it’s going to happen tomorrow.
hard af.
can’t you all clown on them in the facebook comments? AKSCHUILLY the government will always win yeah no shit thanks
I was gonna do this, then my partner badgered me into it saying she wanted to buy a house someday, and my credit being crap would screw that up.
Your partner wants to finance a house someday. I know I’m on the losing side of this battle but I really wish people would stop associating BUYING a house with taking out a LOAN from a bank.
It just feels like people are only deceiving themselves by saying “I need good credit to buy a house” when what they really mean is “I need good credit so I can take on a lot of debt and pay out hundreds of thousands of dollars in interest over the next 30 years.”
One way or the other, you’re paying every month. Either it’s rent (paying for the landlord’s house, including taxes, insurance and interest), or you’re paying towards your own. The general populous has never really been able to buy a house outright. One way or another you’re mortgaging your time to spread out the time to either pay for a house, or pay for property and building your own.
Yes, people have been going WAY to far into debt, pushing the size and prices of houses to unsustainable levels. Hell my mom grew up just fine with 5ppl (2 parents, 3 kids) in an 800sqft house (plus a tiny finished attic) with 1 bathroom. Nobody really needs 2500-4000sqft houses.
But even if we go back to reasonably sized homes, in no realistic world are mortgages going away.
The best you can hope for is to live as cheaply as possible to save up a large down payment (and emergency fund), and buy only as much house as you really need, for as little interest as you can manage, and then pay it off as quickly as you can.
I’m not saying mortgages should completely go away. I’m sure a mortgage is the right decision for many people’s situations. It’s just the way that people talk about buying a house, a mortgage seems to be assumed. If it wasn’t just assumed then maybe people would put more thought into whether they want to save for a larger down payment (or the full price) or whether they want to pay $750,000 for a $400,000 house.
I don’t know, maybe people see these numbers and think its a great deal. All I see is a bank making a huge amount of money from me that I would rather keep for myself. Also, if people stopped stretching their budget to the absolute limit with financing nonsense (3% down, variable rate loans, rate buydowns), in aggregate there would be less demand for houses at these high prices and sellers would have to start accepting lower offers.
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Yeah, I paid cash for my house at $60k.
Eh, I bought a house in 2020 just before the pandemic hit, and by the time I sold it late last year it had appreciated in value enough to completely offset the money I’d put into the mortgage. Essentially I’d lived there for 3.5 years for free.
Yes it sounds like everything worked out great for you. Good job on timing your investment! But this is a perfect example of the type of financialization of the housing market that I’m against. You used leverage to buy an expensive, risky asset and sold it for a profit just a few years later. This doesn’t always work out so well (ask anyone who bought a house in 2007) and I don’t want to put essentially all my savings into a wallstreetbets style gamble just so I can have somewhere to sleep at night.
I certainly don’t think that the housing market is a wallstreetbets style gamble. If you’re getting a loan that you can afford on a house that’s not falling apart, it’ll generally rise in value over time. The only reason my house didn’t appreciate even more in value is because it was a cheap house in a bad neighborhood, and I did nothing to improve it while I was there. My sister’s house doubled in value in a little over twice as long as I had mine, and she already paid off her mortgage in just 10 years, albeit due to near-fanatical saving and planning. Even through 2008 people’s values usually went up if they managed to hold onto the house for a few years - it was a rocky time to be getting into or out of the market, but if you just stayed put, you made it out on top in the end.
I agree that it shouldn’t be necessary to finance a purchase that’s worth several times more than your annual salary, hoping that nothing too bad happens in the meantime before you can cash it out, but it’s still the best investment your average low/middle class person has access to, and it’s a hell of a lot better than spending a comparable amount of money on an apartment that you’ve got nothing to show for in the end.
How precious, your partner thinks housing will be affordable some day.
In 30 years they’ll be able to afford a shack in the middle of the Texan wastelands once global warming desolates the place.
I took out my student loans to get a teaching degree. I worked full time during school, but tuition at my public university was 10k$/year when I was making $16k. My state has effectively made it illegal to be transgender in a public school, so despite a devastating shortage in my area of expertise, I can no longer work in the career I took the loans out for. My option is now to take out more student loans to pay for a masters degree and hope that I’ll be able to save up enough to move out of state, because I want to do the thing that I love to do and am good at. I will be a debt slave for the rest of my life.
You should look trying to move to a state before taking the loans. Plenty of states need teachers and are willing to pay for you to get your master’s as part of retaining you.
Yeah, when i was in high school in NY, you were allowed to teach as long as you are in a masters program.
What the fuck? What state?
The state that just hired the LibsOfTikTok person to evaluate school materials… and is going after a principal’s license for dressing in drag on the weekends. Imma be vague because my life sucks enough without getting Chaya involved…
Is this one of those things where is enough people don to pay, one of the financial systems will be ripped down?
Worth a shot.
2025: The Supreme Court reinterprets the 14th ammendment and allows debtors prison
Can we start doing that with rent payments en masse? I really wish there was a big, organized campaign around this to force rental companies to stop charging these outrageous made-up numbers for rent based on “market value” (which they themselves set).
With student loan payments, I sympathize and hope they all ultimately get their loans forgiven, but ultimately I think the rental situation is the worse offender that’s driving more of the issues that we’re seeing today. I try to pay on my loans/debts religiously, even if I hate the idea of paying all this extra interest on top of it.
