Not too long ago, regulations on CBD changed in Germany leading to a plethora of products containing it. As someone who occasionally needs pain medication, I tried some of the products to avoid regular pain killers (ibu). Especially on days with lighter pain, I wished for an alternative to the sledgehammer meds. But I was left standing in the rain. I didn’t feel any effect. That’s why I would love to hear from your experiments and experience.
You’re getting a lot of answers from Americans. Be aware that CBD oil sold in Germany (Dm, Rossmann, etc.) almost certainly doesn’t contain significant levels of THC.
The evidence doesn’t seem to suggest CBD alone is effective in pain management:
Cannabis oil that contains THC is almost certainly a different matter.
Thank you for the heads up! Half way through the answers I asked myself if a German community would have been a better pace to ask in terms of obtaining the substances, but the effect should be globally available I guess.
Are you informed if the latter is legally available in Germany?
THC is illegal, at least for now. That’s what they’re aiming to change at the moment.
Medical marijuana is legal in Germany. If OP needs it for health reasons he could go through legitimate process.
I heard it’s legal in theory, but super complicated to impossible to get a prescription.
That’s surprising given how close you are to recreational use legalization. Here in Poland MM is legal but we don’t have any producers and get fair chunk from Germany (Aurora Deutschland, 420 Pharma).
At the same time medical marijuana business got so silly that you basically go to a website, fill out a form, pay ~€20 fee and get an e-prescription in a couple of hours. There’s been some ineffective attempts at cracking down on it in the past weeks that resulted in slight fee increase.
Only with CBD products bought at a marijuana dispensary. The crap they have at gas stations and the like does absolutely nothing.
My favorite has been Mary Jane’s subliminal tincture. It’s CBD oil in a 1:16 ratio of THC and unlike the other subliminals I’ve tried, they put some flavor in it so it’s like butterscotch and not gross fish oil like flavor that gives me heartburn.
There’s been some research and basically those products are unregulated and a good amount of them have zero or negligible actual CBD in them.
Some claim like, grams of CBD and they have zero in them it’s just oil. It’s basically homeopathic CBD.
My wife and I both have lives now because of it. In my case, I have body aches from a bad car wreck, and after ten years of only getting maybe 3 hours of good sleep each night, followed by prescribed meds that left me dopey all day long, marijuana was legalized here. My wife makes CBD cookies for me and after a bit of experimenting to get the right amount, I now generally wake up feeling refreshed and have even been needing less sleep for the last several years.
On the other hand, my wife lives with chronic pain from childhood accidents including one where she was partially paralyzed for a few years (spine injuries suck!). She is now on permanent disability because she wasn’t able to sit at a desk for 8 hours a day. Since mj was legalized, she got off the opioids, smokes throughout the day to manage the pain as needed, but is able to get things done around the house when she’s having good days (which is most of the time).
If you want to go down this road, you will definitely get a better experience than you have with doctor-prescribed medications, however because there’s still not a lot of data on the subject you will want to find what works for YOU. If you do any cooking, learn how to make oil and butter from mj, and use that to bake your own cookies, cakes, or whatever. This way you have control over what strains go in to what you are eating, and you can control how much of it is used. You can get instruments to be more scientific with it, but really once you have some experience with CBD/mj it won’t really matter. It also tends to be quite a lot cheaper than buying pre-made edibles from the store.
Now, for what to expect… For my use, the right amount is something that I barely feel, if at all. What I do notice is once it starts to kick in (which is right before bed anyway), I start to drift off and have to make an effort to get up and go to bed. If I eat too much then yeah, things can start to get a bit crazy, and I don’t get as good of sleep that night. For my wife managing her pain, she describes it by saying the pain doesn’t really go away, she just stops caring about it so it doesn’t control her life. Again, the right amount isn’t so much that she acts like a stoner all the time (and she consumes a LOT more than I do), but rather it’s enough that she can start to function again despite the pain. So it’s not unusual for you to not feel anything, but it’s also possible you’re simply not getting enough.
Hope that helps?
Yeah, thank you! As far as I understand what you describe, your therapy is not solely based on CBD but also a not irrelevant fraction of THC, am I getting that right? Honestly I’m a little scared to go that route, but I’m really happy it held you so much!
Really it depends on the results you are looking for. I think the THC portion helps my wife with the “forget about the pain” part, but what she makes for me is substantially higher CBD. Technically all of it has some percentage of CBD and some percentage of THC, it’s a sliding scale depending on the strain, and what I use is nothing like what she uses. So you probably want to start out with strains that are much higher in CBD, especially if you have to go to work while medicating, and see what effect that has for you. What worked for me was taking more and more until I felt the effects, then backing off and realizing I didn’t really need that much. It’s probably similar to diabetics, knowing where their blood-sugar is at and if they eat a certain thing it will balance them out without needing a shot, you just figure out over time what helps you, and just like any other medication taking too much has negative side effects. Luckily with THIS medication you can’t take enough to actually kill you.
Oh, one other thing I forgot to mention… If you are taking edibles, then already having food in your stomach will have an effect on the results, most notably taking longer to do anything. And different strains can also kick in at different speeds. Since I eat my cookie after dinner, it takes around two hours before it actually starts to do anything. If I ate one on an empty stomach it could be 30 minutes or less. Previous food also makes it ramp up slower, meaning that I might start to feel some effects from the THC portion, but I wouldn’t be able to go to sleep yet because the CBD portion hasn’t really started working yet. Hope that makes sense? You may not have noticed the effects when you tried CBD before because maybe it took longer than you expected to start working so you weren’t paying any attention by that time?
Of course if you don’t already have some decent experience with it, then it’s best to start on the weekend so you don’t have to do something crazy like drive to work the next morning. It’s possible to get to the point where you can take higher THC strains later in the day – there are telltale signs that let you know when it’s not safe to do things that might be dangerous, but again this takes a lot of experience and the ability to stop and honestly evaluate your current state. The problem here is that it will literally sneak up on you without any warning. I can be sitting at my computer for hours after eating a cookie, writing code or doing something else that requires some pretty focused thought, and have no idea the cookie ever kicked in… Then I stand up to go to the bathroom and realize I can’t keep my balance without hanging on to the wall! Even with mine, while I was learning the effects there were a couple mornings I had to call in sick because I could feel that off-balance still nagging at me and didn’t want to take any risks. Sorry I keep mentioning this but you definitely want to be careful so nobody gets hurt.
I’m having trouble finding it, but I ran across a study a few months ago whose results pointed to greater pain relief gains when CBD was consumed with THC, and that both substances alone do less to “relieve” pain.
I wouldn’t say it helps relieve pain as much as it lets you be distracted from pain.
Also, personally, when I have used CBD on it’s own, it never did anything for me at all. It only ever worked in combination with THC.
Finally, people taking other medications need to be careful about taking CBD.
The vast majority of medications are broken down by enzyme CYP3A4, an enzyme that CBD inhibits.
I am taking a life-saving/life-altering medication to manage a severe disease. It is handled in my body by CYP3A4. Meaning I can really fuck up my medication dosage by taking CBD on its own, because it will inhibit the ability of CYP3A4 to ingest the drug.
User [email protected] helpfully pointed out that grapefruit inhibits CYP3A4 as well, so if you’re not supposed to eat grapefruit, you should probably also avoid CBD. I hadn’t even made that connection myself, very astute, pizza_rolls!
Thank you for pointing that out!
InI’m in the happy place of not having to take anything else on a regular basis, but it sure makes sense to keep the heads up of required.Absolutely. I am glad I did the research myself and stumbled across this fact, because when I was prescribed this drug I bought a lot of CBD chocolates, thinking they would help. I was surprised that sooooooooo many prescribed medications use CYP3A4 as a pathway to enter the body, and how this isn’t discussed more often. I really haven’t seen very much discussion at all about how CBD can inhibit the effectiveness of a whole host of prescription drugs.
Anyway, cheers, glad to be sharing the info!
That is good to know. Guess I gotta research how my meds work
I used to take CBD every day for anxiety and I only found this out after a couple years so thanks for bringing it up. If your medication says to avoid grapefruit, then you probably should not take CBD
If your medication says to avoid grapefruit, then you probably should not take CBD
I didn’t even make that connection, but yeah, exactly! Grapefruit inhibits the exact same enzyme. That’s a really good way to know, I’m going to add that to my post.
My wife has chronic neuropathic pain, and the CBD gummies seem to help her sleep. They don’t seem to overtly reduce the pain, but maybe make her less anxious about it.
Thank you! I think, this is an aspect I tend to underestimate: the anxiousness pain causes. It is not affecting me much of what I experience, but deep down, it is a thing.
Pain is a really interesting thing, and there’s an undeniably subjective aspect of it. My wife has had a chronic pain condition since 2008, and one thing I’ve noticed it’s that her pain is worse when she’s stressed, PMSing, or whatever. There’s no objective way to measure pain, and I think at least part of what’s happening is that her ability to deal with one level of pain gets better or worse depending on her mental state.
I think of it like going out and finding you have a flat tire. If there’s not much going on, you’re not rushed, you had a good night’s sleep, etc., you might just think “Well, that’s annoying,” and deal with it. If you’re sleep deprived, your kid is sick, and you’re under a bunch of pressure at work, you might just want to sit on the curb and cry. Same situation, but your ability to deal with it is different.
Pain is like that, I think. If you’re in a bad place, things seem to hurt more because your ability to deal with the pain is less.
CBD has zero effect on me. However, THC ramps my anxiety up to 1000. Maybe I’m just a freak of nature?
THC will cause anxiety and paranoia if your tolerance is low or you use particularly stimulating cannabis strain. This is where CBD is very useful because it decreases psychedelic effect. You can use either a balanced strain (equal or similar THC / CBD content) or supplement CBD in other form.
Okay I’m freshman enough to this topic to ask: how do you know what balance you aim for with regards to pain killing?
Start with a 1:1 and adjust from there.
Nah, everyone reacts differently to it, the ones that enjoy it are just a lot more vocal about it.
Personally THC has varied effects for me. Some strains make me space the fuck out (even more so than usual), as if I’m just skipping forward through time, no background thoughts, nothing. Just flash and I’m 20 minutes later. Others make me extremely anxious. Some make me spiral into a really bad depressive ‘everyone hates me. I hate me’ state. Some cause me to pass out, and not in the ‘mmm good sleep’ way, just straight up collapse to the ground pass out. I’ve found very few that have positive effects for me.
So you’re definitely not unusual! The THC anxiety is very real
I think the important distinction here is the percentages of THC present with whatever you’re taking.
If you and @danielton are just talking about getting stoned with cannabis, well yeah it’s going to get you high.
If you guys are talking about taking CBD compound supplements with THC present, that’s very different. THC at low percentages have little to no actual psychoactive effects (talking sub 10% which is way higher than any CBD-specific product can legally be sold as). THC only acts as a catalyst in this fashion.
CDB, CBG, CBC, and CBN, which all occur in different stages of degradation of the THC and CBD compound molecules. CBN is one of the last stages of degradation of THC and is associated with the almost-narcoleptic like sleep and is generally responsible for times that weed knocks you out, which is what I’m guessing happens for you! Not to be one of those vocal enjoyers, moreso highlighting the science behind why you felt the way you have with various strains. It’s certainly the high doses of THC affecting you, but without any CBD compounds there’s nothing to ease the THC.
It’s similar to how we can take an NSAID and an analgesic. Of course we can just have one or the other to get the specific effect, but taking them combined delivers a wider range of effects that go beyond what they were originally meant for. edit The difference is that we have an endocannabinoid system that’s meant to be active and using these theoretically helping prevent the issues in the first place - whereas NSAID and analgesics something we take as a suppressive.
Good to know. I tried three different types of it three different times, and one hit and my anxiety was ramped up to 1000. I hated every minute of it.
People I know all tell me marijuana is this universal Good Thing™ that mellows everybody out so I definitely felt like a freak of nature.
Yes, they stop my panic attacks and help me sleep at night. But I’m super picky on brand. I use only lab verified, US companies that have been in the business since before it was legalized nationwide. A lot of growers and such are being bought up by corporations and even Chinese companies and quality is going in the pisser. And I’ve even gotten a nightmare experience that had me trapped under the influence of something that definitely wasn’t cannabis based at all.
My wife was struggling with anxiety attacks from PTSD. She tried a few different CBD blends before settling on a pure CBD isolate with only flavoring added. She would buy it at a pharmacy that made their own specialty medications in-house. She would take it first thing in the morning and if she felt anxiety coming on later in the day. It really helped make her anxiety a little more manageable.
She eventually found a good psychiatrist that prescribed anti anxiety medication, and she hasn’t really needed the CDB since. But it was very helpful for the few months that it took to find a psychiatrist and medication that worked for her.
I find CBD oil helps with anxiety. Not a severe case of anxiety, but it does take the edge off.
Chronic migraine sufferer here. Like 25+ days a MONTH, over 5 on the pain scale, plus all the other fun symptoms.
I had tried literally every other drug on the market for migraine, even some off label, except Botox. The newest class of migraine drugs wasn’t on the market yet. History tells me I likely will not do well with Botox, so as a last ditch effort, before trying it, I decided to experiment with weed again.
Life changing is an understatement. Went from most of the month, where I felt like I was slowly dying, to having MAYBE 2 relatively mild migraines per YEAR.
Certain strains work better for me as an abortive, than others, but just having it in my system daily gave me my life back. It doesn’t seem to matter whether is a 1:1 (CBD:THC) or just a regular old mostly THC strain, it just works for me.
Have you tried cgrp antagonists? I tried literally everything to the point where multiple neurologists said they couldn’t help me. I was using THC for a long time for my migraines but I was still suffering. With cgrp antagonists I feel 100% normal and it works every time, even if it takes longer if I take it too late.
It’s worth trying a sample if you haven’t, because it’s a world of difference between being high with a migraine and just not having one anymore IMO
Nurtec is approved for preventative now too
CBD never did shit for migraines for me, only anxiety
I have not. As I eluded to, I haven’t tried any of the news classes of drugs, as I found something that worked well for me, before they became available.
I was in the same boat though. I’ve seen more neurons than I can count over my multiple decades of life, and all of them just throw their hands up and say they tried but can’t help me. The last one, left it as you’ll do Botox or I’m done with you.
Thankfully, for me, I just need to have small hit every night ( not enough to even see psychoactive effects) to mostly keep them away.
As for abortive, there are a few strains I know will almost always stop anything in its tracks, and if for some reason it doesn’t, well being stoned out of my gourd works too.
Thank you and I’m so happy for you it helps!
Cbd doesn’t help my migraines, but cbg does.
Honestly, I don’t even need to get stoned for it to help. Just a small puff off the vape, once a day, and I’m good to go. I haven’t bothered to try playing with the not thc stuff.
The rare instance a migraine starts, at least weed is an incredibly predictable thing. A migraine can range from “eh I can power through” to “hmmm Half the vision in my right eye is gone”. I’ll take being stoned lol.
From what you write, stoned is a positive side effect of the whole thing isn’t it? Out do you think this is the main aspect of why the migraine is so much better bearable to you?
No, I don’t think so. As I said, I don’t even need to get high. Just a small hit every night (not enough to have psychoactive effects) keeps them pretty much away.
In the rare instance I get a painful migraine, I can almost always stop it completely with some specific strains. If I can’t stop it, then yeah, being stoned out of my gourd is a positive side effect. lol.
Interestingly enough, when I used to drink heavily, I NEVER had migraines. Not so much as a headache, no matter how heavily I drank either.
I do still get silent migraines (so some of the other symptoms, minus the pain) sometimes, but they are the least of my worries.
Cbg vape or sublingual oil for me - doesn’t completely kill it, but it’ll knock it out for a few hours so I can finish work or get some sleep. The vape works faster. There used to be a guy on r/hempflowers that started using CBG every day and said it cut his frequency in half. It’s really great to have a solution that That works better than the prescription migraine meds and doesn’t make me as spacey.
This is a tricky question. I’m inclined to have a positive opinion about CBD, but if I’m completely honest I don’t feel much of anything from it solo. I’ve taken CBD by itself multiple times and it always just seemed like a placebo. I think CBD and THC together have a great synergy, but it really misses the mark when I only have the one without psychoactive effects.
On the other hand, I’ve had friends swear by CBD tinctures. They were doing large doses (like 50mg+) daily and claimed it had all sorts of benefits for their chronic pain or upset stomach. I never tried doing doses that big regularly just because of the cost and my previous experiences leaving me dissatisfied.
For what it’s worth, Extract Labs is one of the sources I’ve had recommended to me by a trusted friend.
On the other hand, I’ve had friends swear by CBD tinctures. They were doing large doses (like 50mg+) daily and claimed it had all sorts of benefits for their chronic pain or upset stomach.
That’s because their endocannabinoid system is actively in use, unlike people who do not take CBD supplements. We metabolized CBD very well and our bodies will use it when it’s there, so for a lot of people taking CBD they need to jump-start the endocannabinoid system to start processing it.
Often times people will take 1000mg for the first week (or two), then cut that in half to 500mg, then in half for until you are down to 50mg or 15mg doses. Normally we’d have been getting our CBD compounds from the things we eat that eat hemp, something that was prevalent as a feed in the U.S. and is still prevalent in other countries (Nepal, for example). However since we stopped using hemp, animals stopped passing on CBD compounds to us and here we are today with a society full of symptoms of a non-working endocannabinoid system (and well, signs of lead poisoning but lets just move past that…) which include - chronic nerve pain, gastrointestinal issues, issues with insomnia, mood and anxiety. You know, everything that we attribute to just the daily struggles of society today.
Of course, they most likely are just that, but it seems pretty crazy to me that we have a whole system in our body that is essentially on the backburner with very high correlation to many of the health problems.
Just remember, don’t be afraid of THC. They need each other to work effectively, and THC doesn’t have to mean high. Obviously, if it’s a legality issue that’s a different story, but in regards to an edible that has >5% or uses the letters LOC then don’t even think about it for a second - it’s fine. Think of its present as the catalyst for the reaction.
Germany allows max 0.2% THC. Ie. might as well have no THC at all.
Realistically, I think CBD oil sold in much of Europe is a scam because of similar regulation.
You’re better off buying actual weed, but adjusting the dose, than wasting your money on what they sell in health shops here.
Thank you for passing on the recommendation! I’m a little scared to go with any significant fraction of THC… Maybe my dose was just too low so far.
IRC you can’t even buy CBD oil with a significant amount of THC in Germany.
Honestly, if you live near the border with NL or know someone, you’re better off smoking a joint or making some brownies, or buying actual cannabis oil with THC from time to time. It’ll make you high if you take too much, but IME does actually work unlike CBD alone which has little scientific evidence of working.
Sure, drugs bad. But honestly, weed is far less dangerous than alcohol. IME also tends to wear off after max 4 hours even if you smoked far too much, unlike alcohol where you can be slightly drunk the next day, not notice, and end up driving drunk. Ibuprofen really isn’t great used longterm. Neither is paracetamol. Be careful about interactions with other medication though.
Buy some actual cannabis oil, make some brownies, experiment how much is needed to get you high. Take a little less than that.
And hope Germany fully legalizes soon. Even if you never use weed, if some people smoke a joint rather than drink, it’ll result in less vomit and fighting.
If you’re taking any other meds, speak to a doctor before you try it.
I have a chronic illness that led to organ transplantation, and cannabis would interfere with one of my rejection meds. That would have caused me much bigger problems than the pain that I was trying to stop.
Unfortunately, cannabis has an almost cult like mythology around it. There are lots of people who will tell you that it cures everything, from mild pain to every type of cancer, and will even clean and polish your car 😉
I hope you find what you need. Good luck 🙂
I think you need to find your dosage and stay on it to help with inflammation which can also reduce pain. I took a lot when I lifted weights regularly. But I ended up making it myself to make it affordable.
I’d use a reputable company. Some seem to try to keep costs down–I sometimes would buy theirs for convenience. (I would use an decarb/infusion machine and eventually bought an extraction machine. Basically cold alcohol wash hemp then evaporate the alcohol back out).
Thank you! This gives me some highschool vibes of chemistry. The useful aspects of it at least. Is it fool safe or would you recommend starting with ready products?
Weed in jar. Jar in freezer. 190 proof ethanol in freezer. Next day- mix, shake, freezer for one Netflix show, strain through strainer, strain through cheesecloth or coffee filter. Use an electric (NOT GAS!) appliance (rice cooker, crock pot, air fryer, dehydrator, or fan) to evaporate the alcohol. When you have a dark, sticky goo, add a little coconut oil for viscosity and heat to 250f, stirring occasionally until the tiny carbonation bubbles slow down.
Thank you for you recipe! That sounds manageable - as soon as the base substance is legally available here 😉 I will keep an eye on that - it is supposed to be anytime soon…
the problem is the legality of other cannibinoids where you live …
- from the states in the US where cannabis has been legalized – neither CBD nor THC will show their full effects in isolation, they each help to augment the other – so even something like a tiny amount of THC added to CBD (ex. 20:1 CBD to THC) will drastically enhance the CBD effects
- there are two primary (and a lot of secondary) pain systems within the body – one of them responds better to opioids, the other responds better to
cannibinoidscannabinoids – everyone’s different and responds differently so it requires a knowledgeable medical professional who hasn’t bought into US’s “reefer madness” propaganda that’s been foisted off onto the rest of the world
I’m in bed with a fractured wrist and an opoid intolerance/allergy. Where can I learn more about the dominant pain systems/different solutions you mentioned?
proviso: I am not medically trained and most of what I’ve picked up has been informally through the American cannabis communities and legalization efforts
and options for dealing with pain in the US are a hot topic item – you need a medical professional that is knowledgeable about ALL the options but doctors get their licensing at the federal level, not the state level, so they risk their license to even talk about cannabis
from what I’ve stumbled across, opioids work better on acute pain (ex. fractures) and cannabinoids work better on chronic pain (ex. fibromyalgia, stress) – ie. cannabis will help with aches and tension, allowing you to get a night’s sleep – but for direct pain from the fracture, you might be stuck with NSAIDs which have their own slew of issues
I know almost nothing about the other pain systems, but Wikipedia generally has some good starting points
- cannabinoid
- “Before the 1980s, cannabinoids were speculated to produce their physiological and behavioral effects via nonspecific interaction with cell membranes, instead of interacting with specific membrane-bound receptors. The discovery of the first cannabinoid receptors in the 1980s helped to resolve this debate. These receptors are common in animals. Two known cannabinoid receptors are termed CB1 and CB2, with mounting evidence of more. The human brain has more cannabinoid receptors than any other G protein-coupled receptor (GPCR) type.”
- endocannabinoid system
- “The Endocannabinoid System (ECS) regulates many functions of the human body. The ECS plays an important role in multiple aspects of neural functions, including the control of movement and motor coordination, learning and memory, emotion and motivation, addictive-like behavior and pain modulation, among others.”
- CB1 receptor
- CB2 receptor
- cannabinoid
Thank you for your balanced thoughts! Well your first point kinda might be an issue. I guess I haven’t dived deep enough into this topic to answer whether these mixtures are legally available here. Speaking of it: can you (or someone you know 😉) feel any psychedelic effect of the THC with a 20:1 ratio?
I tried to convince trained professionals twice to go the mentioned route with me. Instead, the looked for me as if I asked for a roofie on the house. So that is another issue…
- most people (depending on tolerance) don’t notice much psychoactive effect from THC below ~5mg
- from Wikipedia, it looks like in Germany you have to get a medical pass to get access to whole cannabis or THC
- you will get a similar reaction from doctors in the US
- in the US, doctors are licensed at the federal level, cannabis is legalized at the state level – doctors risk their license even talking about cannabis regardless of its legality in the state they operate in – no trained professional is going to risk their livelihood
- most of the world is still victim of the US’s “reefer madness” propaganda campaign (thanks to Nixon and his “War on Drugs”) and it still bears the stigma of “the devil’s weed” – so, unless you find someone knowledgeable, you can expect the attitude of “asking for a roofie” to be the standard response
Yes, I used CBD herb (hemp) along with a dynavap to quit smoking: It worked great! I still vape dry herb partly to relax and partly to quell any urges for cigarettes since a dynavap is very similar in shape and use. I have been cigarette free for 5 years now!
