Sorry for the Danish post i hope you can translate it.
The Ministry warns that Microsoft programs can create problems for written exams for students with Mac computers.
Users who have updated the programs to the latest version may experience the programs running slowly, freezing and crashing. This means that the examinees are delayed in their work and that parts of the answers risk being lost, write the Agency for Education and Quality and the Agency for IT and Learning in a notice to schools.
I know it sounds crazy, but a better free alternative exists.
It sounds insane to me they would use a suite where they have no control over its state… Can’t they at least block the updates? Just imagine you’re a student and your success depends on the incompetence of others
your success depends on the incompetence of others
This is an excellent lesson to learn in school since it happens a lot in life.
Fair enough, but if it was at work or something you can at least say, ‘eh at least I still get paid’ Here you have no recourse options.
edit: Having read the translation now. It seems the students do have a choice in which software suite they use. So I guess they did have a recourse. So in the end it was their own responsibility. I guess it was a good lesson then.
Here you have no recourse options
I can’t speak for every University, but some have a way for you to appeal issues like this to the Dean.
Just a note to avoid some confusion some people may have: gymnasium in denmark is roughly the same as high schools in the US. While I’m sure the problem also affects university students, the focus of this article is on the high school students specifically.
I would imagine they have a similar setup as here in Norway (who’s also experiencing this issue) where the students own the machine and they aren’t centrally managed, especially the Mac’s
Yeah I assumed they would be centrally managed, but they are not apparently. So then I don’t really see why they would get a time extension to be honest. You could easily game that then and just fake it crashing.
A single person experiencing an error is bad luck and may go through an apeals process. Half a class experiencing the same error jeopardizes the legitimacy of the exam for enough students that they decided to handle it collectively. It may be a third party tool but it is one they are expected to use which changes things. Had it been a few students using libre office they would probably be out of luck as they would have used non standard software.
Another important note is that many exams now require digitally handing in the assignment, so the only alternative to writing the assignment in a text editor would likely have been to scan a handwritten one and convert it to pdf, if that was even allowed. So while particular hardware and software isn’t required, the limitations of the exam makes it impossible to completly avoid errors such as these.
What do you recommend? I love LibreOffice on Windows and Linux, and it still works well on macOS but the GUI seems weird on it, the buttons are really large. I still use it but my partner is put off by it.
LaTeX, code and compile your documents instead of fighting with word.
While I agree with you that LaTeX is an impressive tool, I would not choose it for an exam whith a short duration. It is great, but for short documents that should be written quickly, I don’t think it’s the best tool.
I (almost) only use LaTeX now, I find it easier than having to manually set headings etc. I find it great even for just one page notes.
The few times I do not use it is when I have to colab on a document with someone else.
I’ve used it a lot for reports when I went to university, but for short notes I would prefer markdown and for a few pages or documents where formatting is trivial I still find it easier to use LibreOffice or word. I find it likely that most high schoolers would find it easier to use word for any document than LaTeX which they probably have never heard of and would be unable to get support for unlike word which is commonly provided by the school. So while understand where you are coming from, I don’t think the students are in a situation where that would be a plausible solution. Especially due to the many pitfalls and the learning curve you have to get through for using LaTeX as efficiently and for as complex formatting as they already know how to do in word. LaTeX has a way higher ceiling of quality, but the floor is also much lower for those new to it and without the drive to learn it.
This is actually what I did when I was in school, and overall it was quite pleasant. There was some WYSIWYG LaTeX program too that I shared with some colleagues when we were working on a document together, I remember it working okay.
But I don’t see the average student, especially studying non technical stuff, to pick up LaTeX just for normal sort of essays. Even I am fairly rusty now. And honestly I don’t even know if I could have managed it during high school, where I had to write English essays and stuff with specific formatting for references. (I am grateful that my engineering education was less strict about that sort of thing).
I was hoping that someone would suggest a self hosted web document suite, I think “Nextcloud” is a popular one. Then it should work on any OS, and you don’t have to worry about syncing files. Even if you can pay to have someone else host an instance (not sure if this exists), and ideally a program that can keep a local backup synced to your PCs would be a big step in the right direction. Syncthing seems pretty great, though I haven’t used it much, and on iOS it doesn’t seem to be able to run in the background.
edit: I just read another comment that recommended OnlyOffice, this seems like another good option (source: this reply: https://lemmy.ca/comment/9415293). Aside: is there a proper way to link to a comment on lemmy that will go through your own homeserver?
Honestly Markdown is perfectly fine 99% of the time. It also has many advantages by just being much simpler
This is what I do for my own notes now, but could it work for students writing essays and that sort of thing? I suppose there must be some markdown to HTML/PDF/etc converters (also probably ODT or DOCX or whatever).
OnlyOffice is nice, but a tad controversial. It’s UI is much much closer to how 365 looks.
What’s controversial about OnlyOffice?
I only recently discovered it, and I’ve been happy with it so far. I’ve found the interface a little more snappy and easy to use than LibreOffice.
I don’t remember exactly, but something about it’s license maybe.
Cool, thanks! This is what I was looking for. I’ve briefly tried playing with Nextcloud before, but this seems like another good option.
Nextcloud is a lot of things. A bit overkill for just it’s office offering tbh. But, if it fits your workflow, and you like other things it offers go for it. The snap package actually makes it very easy to tinker with (despite the deserved hate of snaps in general).
Obviously you need to replace your macOS with something better.
Sorry for the Danish post […]
Never apologize for your own language.
Thanks! I guess foreign languages nowadays are just a minor inconvenience.
That said, apologising for sharing an article in one, is an even smaller inconvenience for me, so I can as well do it, for the sake of the few who may feel that its a huge burden
Seeing posts in languages other than my mother tongue is something that I like about Lemmy. Never be ashamed of your native language and the beautiful variety that it adds to the human experience.
Unless you’re French.
Or Canadian.
But only if you’re from Québec
While English is most of the time the lowest common denominator, I love to see some variety!
Why are they using Word in an exam in the first palace? Like, to write an essay? Our non-pen-and-paper exams were all using some web platform that worked pretty well.
It’s mostly for students with issues that puts them at a bigger disadvantage to those that are “normal” when writing with a pen. Learning difficulties and motor function issues and differences alike. I used a word processor in exams towards the end of college due to learning difficulties and a subconscious grip that would ache my hand with overuse of a pen that slowed me down compared to others by a lot.
This is not true. At least not here in Denmark. Computers are ackctually required
You can even see in the picture above that everyone has a pc
Can a school lend you a computer if you don’t have one of your own? Or only have a shared stationary one?
Some schools do and others dont. It depends on what municipality they are and how they are budgeted. That said, all students get paid 6.820 kr. (€914/$916) a month while they study by the state and are offered very affordable loans. Also the actual education is free so getting a PC is often no more of a problem than buying books
And are books required to be bought? We usually use books that are easy to download for free.
I have to answer based on what I hear and not that may be the case. I believe that this depends on the education. Some require one to buy books, but there is a thriving marked for second hand books. I would not be surprised though if many also are available for free downloads, but I can’t be sure
It’s Denmark, everyone can afford a laptop, even if it is difficult for someone the government pays you $900 USD a month to study.
Oh wow. (cries in the corner with my uni paying me $40 a month)
deleted by creator
Oh interesting. I stand corrected
The article says that the Ministry has suggested students use other programs, so it sounds like it’s just something students often use rather than something that’s actually required. I’ve not been in school for a long time, but I am doing a distance learning course and when I had to submit some written stuff I definitely found it more comfortable to type it up in an actual word processor than the web platform that only showed about a paragraph at a time, so I did that and then copied it to the web platform.
Word specifically is not required, but electronic hand in is. If it works the same as when I studied at that level (I am a Dane) you simply hand in a pdf file, but how it is made doesn’t matter. A web interface to write in was never a thing throughout my education though.
Both middle school and high school in Denmark are required to use computers for Danish, English, German etc exams. It’s used for essays and other tests. It’s been like this since the early 2000.
Why do governments and schools force people to buy crap from scammy companies? I don’t ever want to have to deal with shit from Microsoft
In the Scandinavian countries this sort of software is usually provided by the school/university, so the students don’t have to buy it. You may however be (essentially) forced to use that software, since other options aren’t supported. The exam software my uni uses for instance only runs on Windows & MacOS.
usually provided by the university
Yeah, and nobody thinks that is a seriously bad idea? Here, please allow is to lock you into all our products so we can ensure you have to use them life long, like it or not.
why is it a bad idea that studenst get some tools, free of charge, that they are free to use (or not if they choose open source or whatever else)? As far as I know, at least in uni, exams can be submitted in different formats, one of those being pdf, which is pretty universal.what would be the alternative?
The exam software my uni uses for instance only runs on Windows & MacOS.
I would say this segment of @Iceblade02’s post would be the issue, in that people are locked into these systems even if they prefer to use open source software. For example, my university based in the UK requires I submit my assignments in an MS Word format that supports Microsoft’s annotations for the tutor to do all marking up and correcting/commenting on the paper there. There are ways to do the same thing with PDFs, but at least on my modules so far, it hasn’t been an option at all. That’s just for papers and such.
When it comes to exams where you’re supposed to be answering the questions and submitting them as you go, there are schools that insist on you installing monitoring software so they can make sure you aren’t cheating, which only tends to be available for Windows and Mac. I don’t know how common that sort of software is outside the US, but it’s certainly a thing.
The tools aren’t given just out of the goodness of Microsofts heart. Make everyone use word so now if i don’t use words I might run into compatibility issues. Make everyone use Microsoft teams, so well, little options there to even use a competing product.
The issue here is that Microsoft does it to force people into using their products whether they want or need to or not
Microsoft doesn’t give out shit. The schools pay for it.
You don’t seem to know how that works.
Microsoft will gracefully give lower licensing costs for students if the school opts in Microsoft and opts out the competition. It’s been a while (10 years ago) but I saw this in universities where then students had the choice, windows or mac because Microsoft forced it.
In my school they used A1 (or some other A) licences for students. They are probably cheaper than other licenses but they are not free.
I have no idea if they have opted out the competition (whatever that means).
Our class never used any normal windows client OSes (on bare metal anyway). We primarily used Windows server evaluation or Linux depending on the course. I think the other classes primarily used VDI.
Do you have a source for this:
Microsoft will gracefully give lower licensing costs for students if the school opts in Microsoft and opts out the competition.
And what do you mean by opt out? Do they sign a contract saying that they won’t use Linux? That seems extremely unlikely, why would they even care? Seems more likely to be an IT policy because they want to manage the devices or they don’t want to provide support for non Windows or Mac devices.
If you have no evidence or source, do you know for sure that it’s happening (as in you worked in IT or similar role for the university) or it’s a rumour you heard?
why is it a bad idea that studenst get some tools, free of charge, that they are free to use
I can’t find it right now, but there was a quote from a long time ago by Bill Gates where he basically said that it was fine if people were using Microsoft’s products for free because it would get them “addicted”. They would rather have people use Microsoft products even for free if it would prevent them from using alternatives.
That’s why it’s harmful. It’s free for students in the short term, but it prevents them from learning how to use an alternative product that will most certainly be free for them to use forever. Students waste those years when they have a chance to learn something useful, and instead get hooked on proprietary tools that will most certainly fuck them over at some point in the future.
Because, if you’re expected to use or at least understand that software in the work force then schooling should cover it. Open source is nice and some countries have adopted LibreOffice as their standard but Word is still so commonplace in many industries that it is an essential tool for document writing in the age of computers.
Open source software might not directly be used in the workplace but if someone can’t adapt from LibreOffice to MS Office they won’t be able to adapt to MS Office updates either. It’s been decades since productivity software had significantly different feature sets for most users. That weird legacy Excel formula the Finance Department uses will need training no matter how many years of Office experience a new hire has.
Alright but we’re not going to teach people both and we’re not going to teach people neither, so you shouldn’t be surprised that a large institution picked the corporate product.
And you think it’s a good thing that Microsoft has so taken over companies and governments that you now no longer have the choice?
Also, you can use open formats and learntbhe tools. It’s not like Microsoft word is rocket science
Think it’s good? No.
Surprised by it? Fuck no.
The schools recommend windows or mac computers but not browser based computers like Chromebooks, basically because the software that they use for the education can’t be installed.
Yeah and I think that is a bad thing ™
Sxhools and governments should focus on using open source tools, let people decide what they want to use later. If you want to torture yourself with Microsoft tools that’s your decision but I won’t let a government tell me I have to pay that company money against my will
Really? A 10 year or so old 4chan post? Well that must mean you are right and Linux sucks
Its not about Linux being good or bad. I run Linux myself
I wouldn’t though, if I was taking classes that needed me to run certain programs
I always have for the past 25 years. I always managed to adapt and it had become easier every year.
No university should ever require students to pay an abusive company money because reasons. Microsoft doesn’t bring anything new or good tot he table, there are free softwares for everything, so allow me to use that.
Oh! In this case, Office and any other software they have to use, is free while you study. I dont see an issue in requiring students to have computer’s that can run the software that the school pays for.
Here is the translation of the Danish text into English:
“Chaos and Confusion” during Exams after Word Update Ministry warns that Microsoft programs may cause problems for students with Mac computers during written exams.
For several written exams, students with Mac computers have experienced issues with Microsoft Word if they had the latest version of the program installed.
BY Thomas Prakash TODAY AT 10:42
High school student Silje Højer Lauritsen was about an hour into her exam on Thursday when her computer started having problems. Suddenly, her Word program began running slowly. The word processing program “froze,” and she could not save her answers for the assignment in the marketing subject, where she was explaining companies’ value chains.
- It was really frustrating, especially because you are already so stressed and have so many thoughts during an exam, she says. Many of the other students in the exam room at the HHX high school in Risskov, Aarhus Business College, experienced similar problems. Silje Højer Lauritsen estimates nearly half of them did.
Problems at several high schools IT staff and teachers ran in and out of the room to help the students, and they ended up giving them an extra hour to complete the exam. However, not everyone succeeded.
It was almost as if it wasn’t an exam anymore because there was so much chaos and confusion. SILJE HØJER LAURITSEN, STUDENT, HHX HIGH SCHOOL IN RISSKOV
- I have a friend who had her assignment deleted because of it, and now she has to take a makeup exam in August, says Silje Højer Lauritsen.
At several other high schools in the country, the same problems have been experienced in recent days.
- It caused a lot of unrest in the exam situation for the affected students, says Flemming Madsen, IT manager at Aalborg Business College. The problem is due to a recent update to Microsoft Word, which can cause the program to run slowly and crash for students with Mac computers.
‘Use other programs, or take frequent backups’ The Ministry of Education is aware of the problem and warns educational institutions that there may be issues with the latest version of Word and Excel for Mac users.
- Users who have updated the programs to the latest version may find that the programs run slowly, freeze, and crash. This means that examinees are delayed in their work, and parts of their answers risk being lost, writes the Danish Agency for Education and Quality and the Danish Agency for IT and Learning in a message to schools.
- We encourage institutions to inform students about this problem so they can take precautions, such as taking frequent backups or using other similar programs, the recommendation says. One solution could be to uninstall the new version and reinstall an earlier version of the program - downgrading Word from version 16.85 to version 16.84.
Help to solve the problem The Danish Agency for IT and Learning provides guidance on its website on how Mac users can solve the problem and downgrade to an older version of Microsoft Word.
Distracted from the task The ministry states that it is not responsible for the use of so-called third-party programs used by institutions and students and therefore does not have an overview of how many were affected by the problems. At the HHX high school in Risskov, Silje Højer Lauritsen felt that the IT problems made an already stressful situation even more stressful.
- It was almost as if it wasn’t an exam anymore because there was so much chaos and confusion, she says.
- I felt that it took a lot of focus away from my tasks.
Microsoft apologizes At Microsoft, one of the world’s largest IT companies, they regret that the latest update is causing problems.
- We are aware that there may be issues with the latest version of some of our products for Mac users, reads a written response from Microsoft in Denmark.
- We apologize for the inconvenience and take the problem very seriously. We are in close contact with our product team, who are working to solve the problem. In the meantime, we encourage all affected users to follow the recommendations to reinstall an earlier version and take frequent backups, says Microsoft.
At Microsoft, autocorrecting “apple” to “appelle” is such such a minor and humourous oopsies that they will use to force an update on all users next week at 4:59pm when they are all trying to save stuff before going home. But in the real world, that’s annoying as heck.
I understand approximately half of what you wrote, but I see quite a few people upvoted you. Is this what dementia is like?
At fedi, this is totally ok! Because I can just block you and not have to deal with your negativity.
I actually wasn’t being negative, but carry on.
LibreOffice is pretty capable. There are also web-based options.
I just wish compatibility was better. Even if I save in ODT format in either Word or Writer, opening the file in the other program almost always results in formatting errors. Not to mention using DOC/DOCX.
have you tried onlyoffice?
In the past yeah. I still had formatting break in some cases.
Bet the school and students will continue to use Word and risk future critical times with proprietary software they’re not in control of.
Two simple words: digital sovereignty.
Hopefully this serves as another case in the push for the EU[0] using native alternatives instead.
[0]: Not just the EU of course. Any non-American company should see dependency on Microsoft as a liability. I hope all countries around the world see this as a warning of things that could happen to them.
Man I feel old, back in my day we weren’t allowed to use anything more powerful than a TI83 on most exams and the answers were on scantrons or paper due to fears of using the internet to cheat. These days with GPT I’m surprised that’s not even more of a concern.
My university used something called Lockdown Browser. It was free to download for students. On Windows (can’t remember if there was a Mac, and it definitely wasn’t available on Linux), it could only run after a UAC prompt. It used the webcam and microphone on a computer to record the student. It also used facial detection. I’m pretty sure it also recorded the screen, at least inside the browser window.
It also had options that instructors could enable that had us students have to record a video of our immediate surroundings and have to take a picture of a photo ID with our name and picture (preferably our student ID).
If you did the three-finger touchpad swipe (which I’ve done accidentally before) to change to a different window or minimize the program, it’d refocus itself immediately, a warning would pop up and tell you that, if it happened a second time, the exam would be closed and the instructor would be notified.
If it detected certain applications running (ex. Discord, WhatsApp, Xbox Game Bar, etc.), it would ask to force close them or it wouldn’t run.
Barring a situation in which cheating was possible (ex. the three-finger swipe mentioned above), the browser could not be closed until the exam was submitted.
If instructors chose to use Lockdown Browser, students wouldn’t be able to open the exam unless they were using that browser.
So it was still possible to cheat (not that I did, but I’d heard of people who did and how they did it), but still difficult.
It was pretty buggy though, my class had people’s laptops permanently locked into the browser and unable to close it after the exam. Sometimes it wouldn’t even let you start the exam even after launching with the browser until you restarted the whole system.
I feel you! When i took my exams we didn’t even have the internet!
If Microsoft fails their exams, you fail too (:
“Use löpande backups” I mean isn’t that built in? Could they just use something else? Like LibreOffice is a thing that exists.
Both Microsoft Office and LibreOffice seem like a lot of moving parts unless the goal is to rate people on desktop publishing. I mean, anything that permits for text entry should work.
I don’t feel bad for Mac users
In other words: “let them suffer too.”
