So outside of instantaneously and magically destroying the existing power structure and government as it currently exists, what do you propose? How long will it take to implement, and what risks are there in doing it?
The “leftist” arguments I’ve seen so far never mention that.
The solution leftists offer is to organise the working class against its oppressors. This is a tedious process because of the lack of knowledge the average person has around this topic (otherwise you wouldn’t have had to ask this question). The working class will always have their numbers in their favour, but in order to effectively overthrow the ruling class they need to understand the class relations in place. You can contribute by reading leftist literature on class relations and educating those around you. There are leftist reading groups in basically every city especially for this reason.
To add, reading theory is not enough, just a good start. You should join an org if you have the time and resources to do so, and contribute to building dual power.
There are some good orgs to join, such as the Party for Socialism and Liberation, for those based in the US. There are also Anarchist orgs like Food Not Bombs that set up networks of Mutual Aid, though their focus is on immediate benefits to the poor and not building up dual power to replace the current system.
The solution leftists offer is to organise the working class against its oppressors.
Right, right, but - how?
I’m assuming from your spelling of organize that you’re not American? What I mean is - what is the “leftist” plan for America - how would it practically work?
So far all I see is a lot of hand-waving. Yes, yes, and then what? You must know that what you’ve written is just barely outside the realm of theory. How. Will we change our supposed “Democratic march to fascism” exactly? What happens to make that so?
Organising is done through education. Workers must learn exactly in what ways they’re taken advantage of by their bosses and educate others with this knowledge as well. Once enough workers have joined a revolutionary (communist) party because they agree that the oppression of their class must be stopped, they can start their revolution. Workers that work for production companies must take control of the means of the production, workers that work in government agencies must take control over their respective agency. Workers that work in the military must take control of military equipment. The party that organised the revolution already has its own democratic structure that will be used to decide the next courses of action. Once the workers are in control of their workplace they can continue the same work while the party basically takes over the role of the government as long as it’s needed. Through its democratic structure decisions can be made on the order of which the current problems the people face can be addressed.
I’m no expert, so this is a run down of the events during a revolution as I understand it. The course of a revolution varies a lot depending on the class relations so a successful revolution in one country may not look the same in another. As I said, the first step is education and I’m still learning what the class relations look like in my own region, until then I can not exactly say what the revolution here should look like.
In general it should never be a bad idea for a worker to learn about their own company structure and the contradictions that exist within between the workers and the owners and shareholders of said company. This information can first help with unionising, and from it you can derive your negotiating power as a union against your boss. This is helpful in gaining ground on the wage/profit ratio, and later it will be essential for taking control of the company and making sure it keeps running.
Join an organization, like The Party for Socialism and Liberation. Read theory, organize, and build up dual power. You can’t just motion that Leftists aren’t doing what they claim they are and want to, read theory yourself if you want to understand.
I would like to flip this argument on its head. If the right wing is putting up a sufficiently fascist candidate, does that mean you will broker no criticism of the less right wing candidate? They can just keep playing that trick on you forever?
Well, I consider “liberals” and “Democrats” to be pretty clear and on the record as to what changes they would make. They have position papers and - things, if one is so inclined to wonk it up.
But if self-described “progressives” and “leftists” are saying they’re so corrupt, they’re leading us down the road to being locked in an iron coffin with spikes on the inside - well, okay, what’s the “progressive”, “left” road like, then?
Here’s why: explain how your political process can flourish. It’s not like politics is a recent invention - so-called “progressives” or “leftists” must have something in mind, what is it?
What I expect is either complete silence, or something wildly unlikely. But - open to the idea: what is it, how does it work, what are the risks?
Here’s why: explain how your political process can flourish. It’s not like politics is a recent invention - so-called “progressives” or “leftists” must have something in mind, what is it?
Here is PSL’s party platform they are campaigning on, as they try to build up a Leftist political party in the US. There are leftist plans and actions we can take.
Increase taxes for the highest bracket. Close tax loopholes. Codify the right to abortion. End military and economic aid to Israel. Increase land value tax. Single payer healthcare. Extend welfare to all disabled people living overseas. Ban child labour. Universal basic income. Put a limit on the number of properties that can be owned by an individual or corporation. Dissolve HOA clauses. Loosen immigration. Increase education spending. Increase legal protection for unions. Place control of all businesses in the hands of the unions and nationalise those businesses lacking unions. Make internet free and connect every home to fiber. Ban new fossil fuel developments. Invest in the local solar and wind industries. Ban animal agriculture. Tighten up laws against online abuse and harassment. Create a new cybercrime investigation force completely unaffiliated with the police. Offer everyone a number of free therapist visits. Make weed and LSD legal.
Ah, right. I believe the original question in this thread was calling out the tankies who say both candidates are bad and the voting will not accomplish anything to say what the actual plan is, so not aimed at you.
Both candidates are bad. I’m still with Capable Kamala all the way. This is because I have the apparently rare gift among leftists of being able to do things I don’t like for a good reason.
The way this debate has been framed recently, everyone’s talking as though leftists only care about instant gratification and doing things that feel good. I have a bit more long term thinking than that.
To be fair, most leftists are with you on doing whatever is possible to avoid the rise of fascism, including voting for the less shitty candidate. There still exists this false narrative that all leftists are against voting for the less shitty candidate. I’m not sure if it’s because it’s simpler to pretend the group is a monolith and that these few speak for everyone, that it’s propaganda spread by conservative sources to reduce left spectrum cohesion, or because it’s a lie spread by idiots who use sensationalism to attract attention online. I think it’s probably a little of all three.
Either way, you’re not alone. I run in a few leftist circles and rarely encounter anyone who is actually not voting in protest or something equally stupid.
Yes I can see. Thank you for the practical (well, mostly) answers. I agree with a lot of them, and as it happens many are part of the “Democratic march to fascism” as our other “progressive”,”leftist” commenters would have it.
As a leftist who understands we have to work with what we have, I’d suggest you’re also under constant disparagement from “progressives” and “the left”. After all, you support our march to fascism, you see.
Progressives and leftists have tons of literature out there on the policies and ideas they want implemented to improve society, just because you haven’t bother to look up any doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
As to how that gets implemented again it’s out there but going to depend on what country and topic we’re taking about if you want someone to provide something specific.
More than happy to provide some but given the post was on “leftist discourse” I’m a little unclear on what specific topic you’re unable to find the leftist position for here.
So…you are tacitly admitting that the “lesser of two evils” trick will always work on you?
explain how your political process can flourish
I don’t recall proposing a political process. I’ll engage with the strawman anyway. If I was president of this wretched hellscape, The bare minimum policies to start would be:
Electoral reform, labor reform, UBI, criminal justice reform, tax reform (wealth tax, inheritance tax, national property tax, tax on financial transactions), corporate death penalty, presumptive liability for corporate executives, bring the military and police to heel.
something wildly unlikely
Uhh, sure, it is going to be very difficult to change the power structures in the United States that are entrenched into every facet of life and constantly propagandized through the media. I guess we should just give up and spend all our time fellating the ruling class.
So outside of instantaneously and magically destroying the existing power structure and government as it currently exists, what do you propose? How long will it take to implement, and what risks are there in doing it?
The “leftist” arguments I’ve seen so far never mention that.
The solution leftists offer is to organise the working class against its oppressors. This is a tedious process because of the lack of knowledge the average person has around this topic (otherwise you wouldn’t have had to ask this question). The working class will always have their numbers in their favour, but in order to effectively overthrow the ruling class they need to understand the class relations in place. You can contribute by reading leftist literature on class relations and educating those around you. There are leftist reading groups in basically every city especially for this reason.
To add, reading theory is not enough, just a good start. You should join an org if you have the time and resources to do so, and contribute to building dual power.
Definitely. Most orgs in the West (that I know of) are at the moment focused mostly on education because it’s so lacking in our society
There are some good orgs to join, such as the Party for Socialism and Liberation, for those based in the US. There are also Anarchist orgs like Food Not Bombs that set up networks of Mutual Aid, though their focus is on immediate benefits to the poor and not building up dual power to replace the current system.
Right, right, but - how?
I’m assuming from your spelling of organize that you’re not American? What I mean is - what is the “leftist” plan for America - how would it practically work?
So far all I see is a lot of hand-waving. Yes, yes, and then what? You must know that what you’ve written is just barely outside the realm of theory. How. Will we change our supposed “Democratic march to fascism” exactly? What happens to make that so?
Organising is done through education. Workers must learn exactly in what ways they’re taken advantage of by their bosses and educate others with this knowledge as well. Once enough workers have joined a revolutionary (communist) party because they agree that the oppression of their class must be stopped, they can start their revolution. Workers that work for production companies must take control of the means of the production, workers that work in government agencies must take control over their respective agency. Workers that work in the military must take control of military equipment. The party that organised the revolution already has its own democratic structure that will be used to decide the next courses of action. Once the workers are in control of their workplace they can continue the same work while the party basically takes over the role of the government as long as it’s needed. Through its democratic structure decisions can be made on the order of which the current problems the people face can be addressed.
I’m no expert, so this is a run down of the events during a revolution as I understand it. The course of a revolution varies a lot depending on the class relations so a successful revolution in one country may not look the same in another. As I said, the first step is education and I’m still learning what the class relations look like in my own region, until then I can not exactly say what the revolution here should look like.
In general it should never be a bad idea for a worker to learn about their own company structure and the contradictions that exist within between the workers and the owners and shareholders of said company. This information can first help with unionising, and from it you can derive your negotiating power as a union against your boss. This is helpful in gaining ground on the wage/profit ratio, and later it will be essential for taking control of the company and making sure it keeps running.
Well, thank you for the informational rundown. So far as I can tell the “how” of a “progressive” or “leftist” political change boils down to:
Is that the right takeaway?
I think I’m going to stick with the American democratic process of voting for leaders, but it sounds interesting if a little undefined.
Join an organization, like The Party for Socialism and Liberation. Read theory, organize, and build up dual power. You can’t just motion that Leftists aren’t doing what they claim they are and want to, read theory yourself if you want to understand.
I recently finished a biography of Stalin and I gotta say, you sound exactly like Stalin.
I would like to flip this argument on its head. If the right wing is putting up a sufficiently fascist candidate, does that mean you will broker no criticism of the less right wing candidate? They can just keep playing that trick on you forever?
Well, I consider “liberals” and “Democrats” to be pretty clear and on the record as to what changes they would make. They have position papers and - things, if one is so inclined to wonk it up.
But if self-described “progressives” and “leftists” are saying they’re so corrupt, they’re leading us down the road to being locked in an iron coffin with spikes on the inside - well, okay, what’s the “progressive”, “left” road like, then?
Here’s why: explain how your political process can flourish. It’s not like politics is a recent invention - so-called “progressives” or “leftists” must have something in mind, what is it?
What I expect is either complete silence, or something wildly unlikely. But - open to the idea: what is it, how does it work, what are the risks?
Here is PSL’s party platform they are campaigning on, as they try to build up a Leftist political party in the US. There are leftist plans and actions we can take.
Increase taxes for the highest bracket. Close tax loopholes. Codify the right to abortion. End military and economic aid to Israel. Increase land value tax. Single payer healthcare. Extend welfare to all disabled people living overseas. Ban child labour. Universal basic income. Put a limit on the number of properties that can be owned by an individual or corporation. Dissolve HOA clauses. Loosen immigration. Increase education spending. Increase legal protection for unions. Place control of all businesses in the hands of the unions and nationalise those businesses lacking unions. Make internet free and connect every home to fiber. Ban new fossil fuel developments. Invest in the local solar and wind industries. Ban animal agriculture. Tighten up laws against online abuse and harassment. Create a new cybercrime investigation force completely unaffiliated with the police. Offer everyone a number of free therapist visits. Make weed and LSD legal.
How does not voting for Kamala Harris accomplish any of those things?
It doesn’t. I’m with Capable Kamala all the way.
Ah, right. I believe the original question in this thread was calling out the tankies who say both candidates are bad and the voting will not accomplish anything to say what the actual plan is, so not aimed at you.
Both candidates are bad. I’m still with Capable Kamala all the way. This is because I have the apparently rare gift among leftists of being able to do things I don’t like for a good reason.
The way this debate has been framed recently, everyone’s talking as though leftists only care about instant gratification and doing things that feel good. I have a bit more long term thinking than that.
To be fair, most leftists are with you on doing whatever is possible to avoid the rise of fascism, including voting for the less shitty candidate. There still exists this false narrative that all leftists are against voting for the less shitty candidate. I’m not sure if it’s because it’s simpler to pretend the group is a monolith and that these few speak for everyone, that it’s propaganda spread by conservative sources to reduce left spectrum cohesion, or because it’s a lie spread by idiots who use sensationalism to attract attention online. I think it’s probably a little of all three.
Either way, you’re not alone. I run in a few leftist circles and rarely encounter anyone who is actually not voting in protest or something equally stupid.
Yes I can see. Thank you for the practical (well, mostly) answers. I agree with a lot of them, and as it happens many are part of the “Democratic march to fascism” as our other “progressive”,”leftist” commenters would have it.
As a leftist who understands we have to work with what we have, I’d suggest you’re also under constant disparagement from “progressives” and “the left”. After all, you support our march to fascism, you see.
deleted by creator
Progressives and leftists have tons of literature out there on the policies and ideas they want implemented to improve society, just because you haven’t bother to look up any doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
As to how that gets implemented again it’s out there but going to depend on what country and topic we’re taking about if you want someone to provide something specific.
More than happy to provide some but given the post was on “leftist discourse” I’m a little unclear on what specific topic you’re unable to find the leftist position for here.
So…you are tacitly admitting that the “lesser of two evils” trick will always work on you?
I don’t recall proposing a political process. I’ll engage with the strawman anyway. If I was president of this wretched hellscape, The bare minimum policies to start would be:
Electoral reform, labor reform, UBI, criminal justice reform, tax reform (wealth tax, inheritance tax, national property tax, tax on financial transactions), corporate death penalty, presumptive liability for corporate executives, bring the military and police to heel.
Uhh, sure, it is going to be very difficult to change the power structures in the United States that are entrenched into every facet of life and constantly propagandized through the media. I guess we should just give up and spend all our time fellating the ruling class.