Unless policies or technologies change, the ownership cost of electric vehicles (EVs) needs to decrease by 31 per cent if Canada to wants to reach its sales target of 60 per cent EVs by 2030, according to a new report released Thursday by Parliamentary Budget Officer Yves Giroux.
Last December, the federal government unveiled its Electric Vehicle Availability Standard that outlined zero-emission vehicle sales targets for automakers. The standard requires all new light-duty sales in Canada to be electric or plug-in hybrid by 2035. There are also interim targets of at least 20 per cent of all sales being EVs by 2026 and 60 per cent by 2030.
Those federal government targets come as growth forecasts for auto companies have plateaued and concerns about charging infrastructure persist. The price of EVs has also pushed the cars out of reach for many consumers. According to the Canadian Black Book, the average cost of an EV was $73,000 in 2023.
Maybe don’t put a 100% tarrif on affordable Chinese EVs then?
Hard disagree, we should be reducing our reliance on China, not increasing it.
I agree, but we also need to lower our GHG emissions. Since we refuse to improve urban planning or transit, EVs are a step in the right direction.
Correct, but that doesn’t mean we need the ones designed and manufactured in China. There are already other options designed and manufactured in better countries.
And the ones from China still cost less after the 100% tariff
And that isn’t suspicious to you at all?
What’s suspicious is western car companies refusing to make small cheap EVs that consumers might actually want to buy.
This is a huge factor. It isn’t just the initial costs. A smaller EV is lighter, a simple EV is lighter, this lets it use less energy overall which ultimately means you pay less in electricity.
Smaller vehicles tend to have smaller tires, which are cheaper. Cheaper vehicles are also cheaper to insure than more expensive ones.
All these factors combined can easily be the difference between affording a new EV or having to stick in the used ICE market.
No, that’s pretty much in line with America’s oil first economy.
I wrote this for another post but it’s still relative here.
How many times have we bailed out or given loans/grants to the Big Three?
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1979 - Dec. 21- Chrysler receives a $1.5 billion federal loan guarantee, known as the Chrysler Loan Guarantee Act of 1979, the first big US automaker bailout. Source
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Dec 2008 - President Bush announces a $13.4 billion emergency bailout for GM and Chrysler to be paid by mid-January 2009. (source same as above)
2018 - Liberal government writes off 2009 $1.1B US loan to Chrysler, plus interest, docs show Source
- 2023 - Auto industry’s switch to EVs gets $12 billion in loans and grants from the US Energy Department Source
2024 - Canada’s PBO estimates total corresponding government support (for EV capital and operating expenses) to be up to $52.5 billion Source
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Perhaps, but since they’re prohibitively expensive we aren’t buying enough of them.
Protecting domestic industries from competing with China does nothing to strengthen it.
If China was playing fair and being a good ally, I’d be okay with that. They aren’t. Their companies regularly engage in everything from dumping to industrial espionage, not to mention the worker exploitation and abuse, and extending into the government interference both internally and externally.
Protecting ourselves from a single country still allows every other country to compete with us.
So do American and every other companies.
Having been to China myself, and seen the inside of multiple factories and worked with multiple experts, no, it’s not happening to every other company.
Western people simply do not understand the mindset of the Chinese government or populace when it comes to exploitation, corruption, and cheating. There’s a reason why China is having issues with buildings literally falling apart, and why people consider Chinese products to be inferior in quality.
This is right. There are different categories of exploitation and corruption, and it’s not an apples-to-apples comparison. “Well sure but there’s exploitation everywhere” is the wrong lens to understand this through.
But like most companies manufacture their stuff in China… so it’s always China, sometimes with extra steps.
And while it may be worse there, the literal billions EU/US car manufacturers received and pocketed instead of supporting their own business makes me want to support them even less.
China or oil? Which do you want to be more dependent on at the moment
Switching to cheap EVs does not get us off fossil fuels as much as you think.
Personal transportation only accounts for something like 20% of the total fossil fuel use.
I think 20% is pretty big. Not big enough, but anyone who thinks they’ve done all they need by buying an ev doesn’t understand the situation. So yeah necessary but not sufficient
Only 20%, that’s pretty big for a single source.
That is what it costs to burn the fuel. How much to mine it out of the oilsands?
Also, the 20% is every year for the lifetime of the vehicle. Do the math another way and what you get is the implication that getting cars off the road now would provide the equivalent of a 200% reduction in annual output or more ( one time ).
Increasing trade interdependency is a good way to avoid hot conflicts. It’s the principle behind the EU, it’s the principle behind the detente strategy during the Cold War, and it’s the narrative of globalization that has been pushed from the WTO down, ever since we started protesting neoliberal globalization in the 1990ies.
You can start by tossing all your electronics, then.
Do you understand what reduce means?
Some of your electronics, then.
Please go look up what reduce means in Reduce, Reuse, Recycle.
You clearly missed that part of your primary education curriculum.
Use fewer of your electronics, then.
Still failing kindergarten I see.
It’s really telling that Chinese EVs (like imported Teslas) were basically considered fine until the prospect of them being affordable to the middle class arose. That’s when we started hearing about labour abuses and fires that only happen with * cheap Chinese* batteries.
It’s not like Tesla has a stellar reputation for quality and reliability. They started powerwall as a way to offload bad/ prematurely failing batteries. Don’t get me wrong, powerwall is a good idea. But pretending like BYD is going to have terrible batteries and that’s why we need tariffs is bad.
China has labour and human rights abuses (eg genocide of Uyghers in Xinjiang [cultural genocide is still genocide]). Imo Canada is doing a better job of reconciling with its history/present of cultural genocide than China is. Canada’s TFW program probably results in lots of horrible abuses that we don’t hear about, but i think this program may be on its way out too. These issues don’t only apply to EVs though.
The only things that’re EV specific are lithium batteries and automotive manufacturing.
EV tariffs are protectionism: We want to protect domestic automotive (and para-automotive) manufacturing capabilities, and our investments in EVs/green tech.
I don’t think 100% tariffs can be justified on EVs alone.
Because they don’t care about their workers ? Do we really want cars made by Chinese slaves ? Like we do with our t-shirts ? Fuck no.
Most of them are super automated… Do you mean the robots that Nio uses?
👏 stop 👏 subsidizing 👏 oil
$18B last year in government support for petrocorps.
i would love for my next car to be an EV
It doesn’t need to have 1000km range, or edge to edge touch screens, or anything fancy
Give me something like a subaru impreza, with 300-400km range, and a sunroof.
Give me a Honda fit but electric and make my landlord give me the ability to charge it. Some fancy tech would be nice, but I drive a used economy vehicle for a reason
I think you nailed one of the biggest but least talked about factors in mass adoption. I’d love to get an EV, but the only used ones I could reasonably afford would require daily charging as I’d use well over half a charge per workday and I have nowhere to charge at home or work.
Me too. Like, I drive a shitty ice, but I’d consider a decent upgrade in vehicles, only for an Ev and only with somewhere to charge it. Like, that’s one of the major reasons my wife and I are thinking of switching to renting or buying a house at the end of our lease.
And people like us are necessary for adoption. We’re the “yeah but even they have one and like it” people
I’m still tempted to do a diy conversion to get specifically what I want and nothing else. I have to get my money’s worth out of my bike too though.
i saw someone who moded an olschool subaru brat into an EV. Said he put a… Leaf battery and motor in it. Was really cool to see!
(stock photo)
The bolt ev and euv is an amazing car I love it and it fits your criteria.
The Bolt was discontinued after the 2023 model. But hey you can buy a new EV Chevy Equinox now starting at $55k >_>
Good news they recently announced they are continuing with a 2025 bolt ev and a 2026 bolt euv.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/next-generation-chevrolet-bolt-coming-2025-mary-barra/ https://insideevs.com/reviews/721006/chevrolet-bolt-everything-we-know/
This is fantastic. I need a new car but wasn’t in as position to buy a Bolt when they were available. I can hang on for another year or so until the new EUV.
Sounds like Canada should put a 50% tax on gasoline powered vehicles.
So, I drive an EV already but here’s the rub with just taxing gas powered vehicles.
I still believe some people need (or should use) gas vehicles currently.
The first case is for people who have no access to a charger at their home (primarily condo dwellers, since home owners can easily install them) This should be regulated by the government, every condo should be required to upgrade their parking to include a certain percentage of chargers. We don’t need more chargers at random places around the city like we have with gas stations, vehicles should always be charged wherever they happen to sit overnight.
I’ve had an EV for 3 years now, and I’ve never once needed a fast charger, I’ve never driven more than 400km in a single day so overnight level 2 charging is perfectly fine for me, I even used only the standard wall-socket level 1 charger for 4 months when I first got the car. It was do-able but a bit annoying.
The second case is for long distance drivers and/or towing, if you drive more than 2x your battery range in a day as a normal action then EVs just aren’t yet sufficient for you. This is common if you need to tow heavy things, because the towing range on EVs is absolute shit so 2x that battery range isn’t very far. A ford f150 lightning is fine for hauling your trailer around the suburbs for your yard maintenance business, but if you tow farm equipment a few hundred kilometers a day to different farms, it’s not going to work with the current options.
Third, People who already have vehicles. When you replace it, go EV, don’t bother until then. If you are a low distance driver, when you go to replace your vehicle, buy a used gas vehicle not a new one. EVs make more sense both financially and environmentally the more use they get.
These issues are all getting sorted out (slowly) but we aren’t done with gas vehicles just yet so I’d rather see the taxes on the Gas than on the Vehicle itself.
As a condo owner with an EV, getting a charger installed was only marginally more difficult than if I was freehold. There are already laws in place that require condo boards to respond to charger installation requests and enter an agreement with the owner. I think getting more street parking chargers like they have all over Europe would be a good idea and installing charging bays in all new condo towers should be a requirement for the developer.
A big barrier to EV adoption is also education. I have been asked so many questions about my EV from my neighbours, friends, and families. The dealership wasn’t able to answer like 80% of my questions. I had to do a ton of learning online to understand the features of my car, how it works, how to charge it, when it operates well or poorly etc.
Street chargers would be good. If I recall those laws for requiring condo boards to respond are very recent, and a good start.
You’re absolutely right about the lack of education though. I swear half the people I talk to think the only way to charge one is via an 800v fast charger, and the other half assume my range is about 100km in the winter.
People are always shocked about the range, lol. I get about 400km and people always do a double-take at that.
My winter range on a highway with heat on is around 385, which is the sticker value when I bought it.
My summer range is almost 500.
It’s a lot more than people think.
Yeah. I think some of the first-gen Leafs or something got some hilarious number like 80km, and lots of people just never updated their belief after that, lol.
The dealership wasn’t able to answer like 80% of my questions
In my experience, the dealerships are not very interested in selling EVs. They actively discouraged me from even test driving the model they had on the lot, the last time I needed to buy a replacement vehicle.
no access to a charger at their home (primarily condo dwellers, since
Harder still for appartment renters. And there’s more of those than there are condo owners.
Same deal, apartments should be mandated to have them too.
I was going to agree with you, but I think after reading your points I actually feel the complete opposite. I think if there’s a role for heavy taxation to play it should be on new ICE vehicles, as opposed to on the gas itself. We’re talking about new vehicles here, there are millions of perfectly good used vehicles out there that would fill all the roles you’re talking about. Increasing gas taxes ends up punishing the people who can least afford it. Like the farmers who have to have to haul their equipment hundreds of kilometers between farms, the condo dwellers who aren’t allowed to charge at home, and the renters who can’t afford to install an EV charger, let alone buy a new car. The tax should also go towards making EVs more affordable at the low end (it would be nice to subsidize used EVs but I can see many ways to abuse something like that).
We need to get the percentage of new EVs up today so that tomorrow’s used market is where we want it to be. We can only do that by encouraging those who can afford a new car to pick an EV, not by punishing those who can’t afford a choice.
The first case is for people who have no access to a charger at their home (primarily condo dwellers, since home owners can easily install them) This should be regulated by the government, every condo should be required to upgrade their parking to include a certain percentage of chargers. We don’t need more chargers at random places around the city like we have with gas stations, vehicles should always be charged wherever they happen to sit overnight.
Do ICE vehicles owners have a gas station at their house? Why are EV’s an issue for this but not ICE vehicles? As long as you’re near some form of fast charger, you don’t need a Level 2 charger at home, though it would be nice.
This is a common misconception. Fast chargers are EXPENSIVE. Even the BC hydro owned fast chargers are 35 cents per kwh for level 3 charging, compared to the 10 cents I pay at home with my time of use rate. Private chargers are even more expensive, sometimes as much as $1 per kwh.
It does not make financial sense to use fast chargers as a primary way to charge your EV, they are really only meant to be used for long distance travel where you’re driving 500km+ in a day.
It makes sense that they cost more too, the chargers themselves, the land they use up, and the extra electrical infrastructure to bring in the huge amounts of power they use them all cost money. Just for comparison, a 200 amp house gets around 24kwh of potential throughput, while the latest fast chargers can each draw 350kwh.
It’s far easier to just have a spot you can pull into once a week at your condo, and plug it in, then drive off the next morning with a full battery having paid only $6 for another 450km of range.
The other two posters are 100% right, but I’ll also chime in and say that fast charging all the time is bad for long-term battery health, too.
Not to mention it’s WAY more convenient to just plug your car in when you get home. I remember living in an apartment with no chargers and having to wait for one of the two fast chargers nearby… I’d end up either having to carve out 30 minutes late at night to run out and sneak a charge in, or take a peek out my window every 15 mins to see if one had freed up.
Using fast chargers as Plan A is not a good plan or reasonable expectation.
Because half hour charge times
I am waiting for the exponential increase in gas prices to start.
We have to pay for the carbon we’re releasing, it is a market externality, it’s going to cost us trillions of dollars. This is what government is for in a capitalist society.
Only if that tax subsidizes EVs.
I’d rather that tax subsidizes trains.
Good point, I like that better.
Have we as a country ever met a climate target? In fairness to our politicians (not really), the O&G industry regulates them and not the other way around. Until that power relation changes, our targets are just greenwashing
AFAIK the only environmental goal that we met was the Montreal protocol and the elimination of chemicals harming the ozone layer.
As a result of the international agreement, the ozone hole in Antarctica is slowly recovering. Climate projections indicate that the ozone layer will return to 1980 levels between 2040 (across much of the world) and 2066 (over Antarctica). Due to its widespread adoption and implementation, it has been hailed as an example of successful international co-operation. Former UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan stated that “perhaps the single most successful international agreement to date has been the Montreal Protocol”.
I think we also did something about acid rain for a few decades now but I can’t find any specific agreement. All I know is that I’m in my 40ies and thus old enough to remember it was an issue when I was a kid, and that the US and Canada agreed to do something about it.
Some governments, including those in Europe and North America, have made efforts since the 1970s to reduce the release of sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxide into the atmosphere through air pollution regulations. These efforts have had positive results due to the widespread research on acid rain starting in the 1960s and the publicized information on its harmful effects.
I don’t know what changed but apparently, we don’t really care about the rest now.
Well, I’m never buying a Tesla and the same government is determined to withhold choice from us.
Withhold choice? Do you not realize that there are electric vehicles from literally every major brand available today?
I love my Kia Niro EV, going on three years and 80,000km now.
Not BYD
BYD is not a major brand, they aren’t even top 10 in the world yet and 95% of their sales are in China.
Nissan sells more than they do, and it’s the third largest Japanese car brand.
That’s based on number of units, not revenue. They sell cheap cars in China to a billion and a half people, of course they move a lot of units. They had to redesign them to sell them outside of China because they don’t meet western safety standards with their normal model.
BYD sold 242,759 vehicles outside China in 2023, according to data from BYD and Chinese Customs.
Nissan sold 3.4 million vehicles in 2023, only a million of which were in China.
BYD is not a major brand outside of China, and or even globally if you count by revenue.
The article literally states BYD outsold Nissan worldwide this year
Can you not read past a headline?
BYD outsold Nissan worldwide in number of units, but that includes BYD’s China sales which make up almost all of it’s sales.
If you eliminate sales in China, BYD sold only 242k vehicles globally, and Nissan sold around 2.4 million.
BYD is NOT a major brand outside of China.
That’s like saying China Railway Group is a major international construction company because it’s the worlds largest by revenue, despite essentially operating only in China.
Counting by revenue biases you towards luxury companies that take rich people’s money without actually making an impact on the world.
Counting by units biases you towards junk that isn’t bought by the first world because it’s bad.
Tesla asked Canada to reduce tariffs on its EVs made in China, Reuters source says - https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/tesla-canada-china-tariffs-1.7307635
It doesn’t look like the governments want EVs to replace ICE vehicles as they are today. The density in cities is already limited by parking and road space, and the infrastructure needed to charge all these new EVs isn’t really being built.
Keeping EVs in the $60k+ range and the short life-cycle of these vehicles will ensure most people transition to public and active transport, leaving the roads to luxury consumers.
American here. Does Canada have any domestic auto manufacturers?
Ford, Stellantis, GM, Honda, Toyota: source (click “Made in Canada”). Both countries assemble many cars where parts are made in the US/Canada/Mexico (see: NAFTA/CUSMA aka USMCA)
edit: also for context, auto manufacturing is a big political football here in Ontario, with politicians always announcing funding and looking for photo ops around it because they’re big employers in manufacturing
If by that you mean “headquartered in Canada and manufacturing in Canada for the Canadian market” then the answer is no, I’m pretty sure the last ones vanished no later than the middle of the 20th century. Some US and other foreign companies do have manufacturing and assembly plants here, but I wouldn’t call them Canadian. (Ford Canada used to be semi-independent and produced some own-model vehicles early on, but they’re nothing more than a subsidiary of the US company now.)
Ford, GM, Toyota, Honda, Fiat Chrysler have factories in Canada. I don’t know of any that truly Canadian companies though.
For now, they can barely keep them running in the GTA.
Pair this news with the 100% tariff on EV imports.
Closet fossil fuel subsidy in disguise.
Why not subsidize electric bike Jesus Christ. Why the fuck are we subsidizing the auto industry, they got us by the fucking balls already.
