My parents had a porn blocker, and all it made me do was learn enough about computers to circumvent it. Even if they put age verification in front of every porn site in the world there’s still torrents and chat rooms and forums all over where you can find it, and kids will find it. Next thing they’ll mandate is putting toothpaste back in the tube.
If your single point is “trying to stop people only makes them do it more”, than no, it’s not a “leap”. That invalidates the very idea of having laws in the first place.
And fwiw, I’m not arguing in favor of this law, just against the idea you replied with.
We didn’t say this about everything (although it is true that some kinds of people are attracted to anything forbidden). We said it’s true of teenagers and porn. Duh.
And fwiw, I’m not arguing in favor of this law, just against the idea you replied with.
Whatever you’re arguing for or against, you’re arguing like a drunk uncle. You’re taking it to an extreme that it’s obvious no one actually intended, and then arguing against that extreme like it was the original point.
Not only will they find it, they’ll end up going to the sketchier sites that don’t do the age verification because they’re not well known enough and not following the laws and they’ll likely get something infected on the computer/network or worse.
Not only will they find it, they’ll end up going to the sketchier sites that don’t do the age verification because they’re not well known enough and not following the laws and they’ll likely get something infected on the computer/network or worse.
It’s like that time we declared a war on drugs and then there were no drugs. Wait, actually that led to a massive black market and tons of violence.
Point being, you’re not gonna stop it. You’re just gonna make it less safe.
I think you were the exception not the rule. Or maybe I’m just old. Back in my day you would try to open that linkin_park.mp3 that you downloaded off of limewire, and who knows what you were actually gonna get. Normally some heinous porn or gore video, but I’m sure there was an executable or three in those, too.
I think nowadays this is harder to do, but I could still see some kid getting fooled on some shady tracker site or something.
I definitely got my share of stuff that didn’t match the title from Limewire, but the only .exe I ever downloaded from it was Limewire Pro. It took zero effort to check the file name for the extension.
Funny you should mention putting toothpaste back in a tube, because I actually helped someone do that last night. It’s possible, but also a huge pain in the ass. That’s not a commentary on anything besides literal toothpaste.
My housemate was going on a trip to Alaska the next morning. She had a mostly empty 3 oz toothpaste tube and she was trying to refill it from a larger tube. No idea what she was so opposed to just buying toothpaste when she arrived. I think she was mostly just doing it because she could.
The solution involved holding the tubes end to end and squeezing the larger tube, alternating with using a stirring rod to pack the toothpaste into the smaller tube.
My housemate was going on a trip to Alaska the next morning. She had a mostly empty 3 oz toothpaste tube and she was trying to refill it from a larger tube. No idea what she was so opposed to just buying toothpaste when she arrived. I think she was mostly just doing it because she could.
The solution involved holding the tubes end to end and squeezing the larger tube, alternating with using a stirring rod to pack the toothpaste into the smaller tube.
When my wife insisted I put a porn blocker on the internet, I did some simple DNS tinkering, then told my son not to let his mother catch him bypassing the “blocker” I put on.
It would loan line by precious line. Should I look now and enjoy the suspense or wait ten minutes and see the whole pic in all of its glory? Usually I would be weak and sit there enjoying the anticipation…one line at a time…then finally, when you were so horny you just couldn’t take it anymore…you see her penis :/
Mine straight up used Spyware. I learned to make multiple copies of older sessions to cover up anything I wanted, then I replaced current sessions just like they did on security cameras in the movies lol.
I just think of it as a safety net to prevent (or at least reduce the risk) of young children accidently stumbling upon something nasty or graphic that they didn’t mean to.
This should also be done by proper parenting and supervision but as technology and internet devices are friggin everywhere I don’t think it’s a bad idea for parents to also have some decent filters on their internet connection.
Doesn’t stop someone who even knows half way what they are doing, but by that point hopeful parents will have talked and educated their children about things before there’s a concern about intention seeking stuff out.
Edit: with all the downvotes my comment might be misunderstood (or might not) - I am talking here about parents (or whoever is in charge of their own network) making use of something like a pi-hole or nextdns to put a bit of controls on the internet - useful for blocking spam, adverts, scams and yes, explicitly or graphic sites which may not be appropriate if there are young children who could end up on the internet at home. This isn’t a replacement for proper supervision and parenting but it seems sensible.
Hell I’d advise anyone to put decent controls on their network as it makes a world of difference browsing when you are properly blocking adverts trackers scam sites (or whatever else you don’t want on your connection)
I am not advocating for these controls to be in the hands of the government or for websites to collect private personal data. Just that there is nothing wrong with parents (or anyone who is charge of their network/internet) to apply filters they deem appropriate
(Or the downvotes may have not misunderstood me at all and disagree that home network filters shouldn’t ever be used. In which case fair but enough we on that point)
(Or the downvotes could be just cause of my poorly written comment regardless of the point it was trying to make one way or another)
A decent filter on a network (think pi-hole and next dns and the like) helps block adverts, trackers, scam sites, shady pop ups as well as bog standard porn sites etc
Internet is full of things that it’s easy to accidentally stumble on that you wouldn’t want a young kid to see and I think it’s a reasonable step to have some basic levels of controls on your own network
The onus is on the parents to manage internet access in a way the feel best and shouldn’t be forced or assumed. definitely not to porn sites (or any other site!) to collect entirely unnecessary personal data which would inevitably get leaked.
I totally agree and I put in a good faith effort to block that stuff from my kids’ devices using a pihole and what’s available on their phones. But I remember being their age and getting away with things because I figured out the workarounds.
At the very least it’ll teach them a little about networking and computers which will serve them well in their careers.
Absolutely, that’s why I keep saying “accidentally” - anyone who thinks an internet filter will stop someone with any determination is kidding themselves.
So you feel the same way about online gambling sites too, for example? Do you think they shouldn’t need to do age verification and should just rely on parents?
Imo it’s both parents and regulations that need to do their part.
I hadn’t considered that, you make a very good point. If anything I’d be for stricter controls on gambling sites as they can be so dangerous to children and adults. But maybe that’s being hypocritical.
Maybe it comes down to if there’s payment? Or is that too abitrary? Perhaps it’s just a gut aversion to governments forcing a sort of sex morality…. But even that isn’t entirely right as I don’t have a big problem with a cinema having she ratings. Or could also be that I really really don’t trust websites to collect personal info unless absolutely necessary (and even when it is I don’t exactly trust it) and porn sites in particular would be a huge target and expose people to black mail
Etc
Yeh it’s not a black and white situation like many are treating it. They don’t want the government mandating age restrictions for porn, but have no problem with the government mandated age restrictions for drinking or driving or voting or movie watching etc. As you said, where do you draw the line?
The solution to me is a secure global government issued ID, like your social security number in the USA, and that can be used through a government provided online API for age verification, where the sites don’t need to store any private information - just that they have verified that you’re 18. Kind of like how credit card processing works now where the site never sees your credit card number but just gets a token that can’t be used by anyone else.
Of course this won’t sit well with many people as they don’t want a government ID like that. As you said, it would become a honeypot for hackers to use for blackmail etc.
I’m all for age verification for online services, but only when the ones forcing the requirement of it are providing a safe, secure, and easy way to implement it.
Instead of the age confirmation dialog, they should implement an age-captcha, like “identify these musical artists” or “click on all the squares with physical storage media.”
I’m talking about network filters at the home level. Like a pinhole or nextdns. Ones the network owner is control of and can log or not log as they choose to. Parents can set up their own safety net if they choose.
I was Responding to the comment “my parents had a porn blocker” etc
I do not want some dodgy website to be collecting personal IDs that would be an obvious target and/or just get leaked accidebtly.
I am a parent and I have decided not to worry about this stuff. Teens will look at porn and that is just a fact about our existence. I don’t have to like it or approve of it or concern myself with it.
Teenagers will. Young children though may accidentally stumble upon something nasty which is far from age appropriate and something they aren’t ready for.
Having good network controls can help with that, but so does good supervision and education about internet safety.
My parents had a porn blocker, and all it made me do was learn enough about computers to circumvent it. Even if they put age verification in front of every porn site in the world there’s still torrents and chat rooms and forums all over where you can find it, and kids will find it. Next thing they’ll mandate is putting toothpaste back in the tube.
Trying to stop people from doing something is a sure fire way to guarantee they will do that thing.
It’s not that. It’s that if you tell a horny teenager that there’s pictures of naked people somewhere they’ll move heaven and earth to get to it.
Guess we shouldn’t have any laws about anything, then.
Bit of a leap, my dude.
Of course we should have laws.
But for things that are actually harmful.
For everything else we should have regulation.
If your single point is “trying to stop people only makes them do it more”, than no, it’s not a “leap”. That invalidates the very idea of having laws in the first place.
And fwiw, I’m not arguing in favor of this law, just against the idea you replied with.
We didn’t say this about everything (although it is true that some kinds of people are attracted to anything forbidden). We said it’s true of teenagers and porn. Duh.
I don’t see any such qualifiers. Do you?
Semi-Hemi-Demigod said:
I wasn’t responding to them, so how does that matter?
Whatever you’re arguing for or against, you’re arguing like a drunk uncle. You’re taking it to an extreme that it’s obvious no one actually intended, and then arguing against that extreme like it was the original point.
I’m not arguing against extremes, I’m arguing against a bad argument. And I’m not drunk, I only wish I were.
Not only will they find it, they’ll end up going to the sketchier sites that don’t do the age verification because they’re not well known enough and not following the laws and they’ll likely get something infected on the computer/network or worse.
It’s like that time we declared a war on drugs and then there were no drugs. Wait, actually that led to a massive black market and tons of violence.
Point being, you’re not gonna stop it. You’re just gonna make it less safe.
Yep. Who among us as idiot teenagers hasn’t downloaded “$current_starlet full nude sex tape.exe” from some shady site?
Certainly not me.
I use Arch Linux btw.
wine is launching
Even as an idiot teenager I knew the difference between an executable and a video file.
I think you were the exception not the rule. Or maybe I’m just old. Back in my day you would try to open that linkin_park.mp3 that you downloaded off of limewire, and who knows what you were actually gonna get. Normally some heinous porn or gore video, but I’m sure there was an executable or three in those, too.
I think nowadays this is harder to do, but I could still see some kid getting fooled on some shady tracker site or something.
For me learning about file extensions was definitely heavily influenced by early Kazaa / Limewire / DC++ days :) Fool me once etc…
I definitely got my share of stuff that didn’t match the title from Limewire, but the only .exe I ever downloaded from it was Limewire Pro. It took zero effort to check the file name for the extension.
Or to reddit and lemmy
Funny you should mention putting toothpaste back in a tube, because I actually helped someone do that last night. It’s possible, but also a huge pain in the ass. That’s not a commentary on anything besides literal toothpaste.
I would like to hear the rest of the story, please.
My housemate was going on a trip to Alaska the next morning. She had a mostly empty 3 oz toothpaste tube and she was trying to refill it from a larger tube. No idea what she was so opposed to just buying toothpaste when she arrived. I think she was mostly just doing it because she could.
The solution involved holding the tubes end to end and squeezing the larger tube, alternating with using a stirring rod to pack the toothpaste into the smaller tube.
But why?
My housemate was going on a trip to Alaska the next morning. She had a mostly empty 3 oz toothpaste tube and she was trying to refill it from a larger tube. No idea what she was so opposed to just buying toothpaste when she arrived. I think she was mostly just doing it because she could.
The solution involved holding the tubes end to end and squeezing the larger tube, alternating with using a stirring rod to pack the toothpaste into the smaller tube.
I’d build some kind of suction device to put negative air pressure on the tube while holding the nozzle in the toothpaste
I think I saw something like that on YouTube. I’ll look for the video later.
When my wife insisted I put a porn blocker on the internet, I did some simple DNS tinkering, then told my son not to let his mother catch him bypassing the “blocker” I put on.
When I was growing up we had the ultimate porn blocker.
Dial up internet was far too slow to load more than about half an image per hour.
It would loan line by precious line. Should I look now and enjoy the suspense or wait ten minutes and see the whole pic in all of its glory? Usually I would be weak and sit there enjoying the anticipation…one line at a time…then finally, when you were so horny you just couldn’t take it anymore…you see her penis :/
Kids today don’t know how good they got it.
This blows my mind. Why not just push back on your wife for being ridiculous? I say this as a woman with two boys who has been married for 10 years.
One picks their battles…
Well now there’s an apt metaphor… :-P
Toothpaste
Mine straight up used Spyware. I learned to make multiple copies of older sessions to cover up anything I wanted, then I replaced current sessions just like they did on security cameras in the movies lol.
I just think of it as a safety net to prevent (or at least reduce the risk) of young children accidently stumbling upon something nasty or graphic that they didn’t mean to.
This should also be done by proper parenting and supervision but as technology and internet devices are friggin everywhere I don’t think it’s a bad idea for parents to also have some decent filters on their internet connection.
Doesn’t stop someone who even knows half way what they are doing, but by that point hopeful parents will have talked and educated their children about things before there’s a concern about intention seeking stuff out.
Edit: with all the downvotes my comment might be misunderstood (or might not) - I am talking here about parents (or whoever is in charge of their own network) making use of something like a pi-hole or nextdns to put a bit of controls on the internet - useful for blocking spam, adverts, scams and yes, explicitly or graphic sites which may not be appropriate if there are young children who could end up on the internet at home. This isn’t a replacement for proper supervision and parenting but it seems sensible.
Hell I’d advise anyone to put decent controls on their network as it makes a world of difference browsing when you are properly blocking adverts trackers scam sites (or whatever else you don’t want on your connection)
I am not advocating for these controls to be in the hands of the government or for websites to collect private personal data. Just that there is nothing wrong with parents (or anyone who is charge of their network/internet) to apply filters they deem appropriate
(Or the downvotes may have not misunderstood me at all and disagree that home network filters shouldn’t ever be used. In which case fair but enough we on that point)
(Or the downvotes could be just cause of my poorly written comment regardless of the point it was trying to make one way or another)
Porn sites have had “Confirm you are over 18” since the dial up days. That’s about as much of a safety net as I think is necessary or practicable.
A decent filter on a network (think pi-hole and next dns and the like) helps block adverts, trackers, scam sites, shady pop ups as well as bog standard porn sites etc
Internet is full of things that it’s easy to accidentally stumble on that you wouldn’t want a young kid to see and I think it’s a reasonable step to have some basic levels of controls on your own network
The onus is on the parents to manage internet access in a way the feel best and shouldn’t be forced or assumed. definitely not to porn sites (or any other site!) to collect entirely unnecessary personal data which would inevitably get leaked.
I totally agree and I put in a good faith effort to block that stuff from my kids’ devices using a pihole and what’s available on their phones. But I remember being their age and getting away with things because I figured out the workarounds.
At the very least it’ll teach them a little about networking and computers which will serve them well in their careers.
Absolutely, that’s why I keep saying “accidentally” - anyone who thinks an internet filter will stop someone with any determination is kidding themselves.
So you feel the same way about online gambling sites too, for example? Do you think they shouldn’t need to do age verification and should just rely on parents?
Imo it’s both parents and regulations that need to do their part.
I hadn’t considered that, you make a very good point. If anything I’d be for stricter controls on gambling sites as they can be so dangerous to children and adults. But maybe that’s being hypocritical.
Maybe it comes down to if there’s payment? Or is that too abitrary? Perhaps it’s just a gut aversion to governments forcing a sort of sex morality…. But even that isn’t entirely right as I don’t have a big problem with a cinema having she ratings. Or could also be that I really really don’t trust websites to collect personal info unless absolutely necessary (and even when it is I don’t exactly trust it) and porn sites in particular would be a huge target and expose people to black mail Etc
Yeh it’s not a black and white situation like many are treating it. They don’t want the government mandating age restrictions for porn, but have no problem with the government mandated age restrictions for drinking or driving or voting or movie watching etc. As you said, where do you draw the line?
The solution to me is a secure global government issued ID, like your social security number in the USA, and that can be used through a government provided online API for age verification, where the sites don’t need to store any private information - just that they have verified that you’re 18. Kind of like how credit card processing works now where the site never sees your credit card number but just gets a token that can’t be used by anyone else.
Of course this won’t sit well with many people as they don’t want a government ID like that. As you said, it would become a honeypot for hackers to use for blackmail etc.
I’m all for age verification for online services, but only when the ones forcing the requirement of it are providing a safe, secure, and easy way to implement it.
Instead of the age confirmation dialog, they should implement an age-captcha, like “identify these musical artists” or “click on all the squares with physical storage media.”
Like in Leisure suite Larry! Although sometimes those answers change, like this one:
O. J. Simpson is
a.an R & B singer.
b.under indictment.
c.embarrassed by his first name (Olivia).
d.no one to fool with.
At least those whippersnappers will learn a little history
What happens when the data in this “safety net” is breached and tons of peoples IDs get leaked? So safe.
I’m talking about network filters at the home level. Like a pinhole or nextdns. Ones the network owner is control of and can log or not log as they choose to. Parents can set up their own safety net if they choose.
I was Responding to the comment “my parents had a porn blocker” etc
I do not want some dodgy website to be collecting personal IDs that would be an obvious target and/or just get leaked accidebtly.
I am a parent and I have decided not to worry about this stuff. Teens will look at porn and that is just a fact about our existence. I don’t have to like it or approve of it or concern myself with it.
Teenagers will. Young children though may accidentally stumble upon something nasty which is far from age appropriate and something they aren’t ready for.
Having good network controls can help with that, but so does good supervision and education about internet safety.