You saved Palestine 🥳🥳🥳🥳🥳🥳🥳
I don’t really see how the Uncommitted movement could have done anything differently. They had pretty simple demands: let a Palestinian speak at the DNC, meet with families of Palestinians, meet with our leadership. The Harris campaign ignored all of those requests, so in the end, they declined to endorse her, but still urged their supporters not to vote Trump or third-party.
Endorsing her just wasn’t an option, given that she did nothing to meet them halfway. If your spouse is abusive, and you say, “If you ever treat me like that again, I will leave you,” then you have to leave them if their behavior doesn’t change. Otherwise, you are just inviting more abuse. If you tell a politician, “These are the minimum actions you must take to earn our endorsement,” and they ignore you, you can’t endorse them anyway. Otherwise, you’re announcing your demands carry no weight.
The Abandon Harris (previously Abandon Biden) movement was more hard-line, and the Democrats were clearly too centrist and hawkish to meet their demands for an immediate arms embargo But the Uncommitted movement offered reasonable steps that the Harris campaign could have taken to win over Arab Americans, and she flat out ignored them. She is clearly to blame for not taking that offramp.
No. And fuck you for taking that position. That Uncommitted position doesn’t ‘punish’ Harris, it simply ensures that a demagogue would be elected. AND just coincidentally, the early actions of that demagogue signals that Palestine simply won’t exist in any significant fashion in a few years.
The direct result of your holier-than-thou’ position is that Palestine gets fucked 10 times harder. Good job asshole.
Well, A) I’m describing the position Uncommitted was in, not giving my own. B) Who the hell are you quoting when you say, “punish?” That word doesn’t appear in my comment, and I definitely didn’t say that the Uncommitted leaders were trying to punish anyone, so what the fuck are you talking about? Are you actually arguing with me, or someone you made up in your head? C) Your entitled, sneering attitude is indicative of why Harris lost; telling Palestinian that Harris won’t oppose the genocide, but vote for her anyway or else; telling teamsters she didn’t need them to win; it turns out that was a losing strategy, huh?
By the way, I actually voted for Harris, despite her floundering, directionless campaign, but since I’m not a complete idiot, I want to understand people who didn’t. Blaming other people for Harris’s loss might feel nice, but internet temper tantrums don’t win elections.
Anyway, I could also call you an asshole and tell you to get fucked, but honestly, I’d rather you work on your reading comprehension. You don’t seem to have understood (or at least engaged with) anything I said besides, “Uncommitted didn’t endorse Harris.” Honestly, based on your comment, I’m not even sure you understand what the Uncommitted movement was.
I will apologise for my aggressive response. I conflated your position with direct support for the underlying. That was a mistake and I apologize.
Re the ‘punish’ comment, I remain completely disgusted with Uncommitted due to their stated goals ’ a protest campaign aimed mainly to pressure Joe Biden and Kamala Harris to achieve a ceasefire in the Israel–Hamas war and impose an arms embargo on Israel’
No such political pressure towards the Trump campaign? I recognize that he isn’t the sitting president but even a casual observer can see that his presidency would likely be significantly worse for Palestine.
However, re third party or ‘none of the above’ voters, including any teamsters that did not vote for Harris because she didn’t beg, fuck em. I believe their fence sitting (at least partially) enabled this right wing smorgasbord.
Well, I get what you’re saying, but I think Harris’ failure to negotiate with these groups is entirely on her. The Uncommitted movement’s goals were very lofty, but their demands were small. They wanted State Rep. Ruwa Romman to give a speech at the DNC, and a leaked draft showed it was a very mild speech that didn’t even condemn Israel. It just called for an end to the war. After the DNC declined, they asked her to meet with families who’d lost loved ones in Gaza, and she ignored the request. Finally, they gave her until September 15th to hold a meeting with them, and she again ignored them, so they decided not to endorse her.
The Uncommitted movement didn’t create the problems Harris had with the Muslim community; Biden’s handling of Gaza did that. The Uncommitted movement just took that anger, organized it, and put it towards productive action. That’s what activist leaders are supposed to do. The Uncommitted leadership was clearly looking for any gesture towards the Palestinian community that they could take to their supporters, and Harris just wouldn’t do it. You have to do something to win an activist groups’ support. Endorsing her after she snubbed them wouldn’t have convinced the Uncommitted members to vote for Harris, if would have convinced them their leaders were pushovers.
People like you seem to think protesting against genocide is a bigger problem than sending billions in support of genocide. I can’t tell if it’s a matter of diehard party support above all else or simple delusion.
Just acknowledge that we were always getting one of two options. This isn’t confusing in the slightest.
To extend the analogy used in the comment starting this thread, it’s like leaving your abusive partner to live with a more abusive partner.
Why the ever loving fuck would you choose the worse option?
A perfect analogy where you argue to stay with abusive partner and you are actually a horrible person if you don’t want to stay with your abusive partner. The idea that your partner stops being abusive is also so absurd that it’s out of the question.
As I said in the other comment you left, your interpretation of the analogy makes no sense. Your point would be valid if I were discussing Arab and Muslim voters who voted for Trump, but I’m not; I’m discussing the Uncommitted movement, who endorsed neither candidate.
Oh they only didn’t know whether they wanted to better or worse option. Still pretty goddamn stupid.
Yeah, also no, and it you’d actually read the original comment, you’d know that. As I said:
they declined to endorse her, but still urged their supporters not to vote Trump or third-party.
They knew Trump was worse, they didn’t want Trump to win, but they needed Harris to make a gesture towards the Arab community before they could endorse her; she didn’t, so they didn’t. She didn’t negotiate to get their endorsement, so she didn’t get their endorsement. It’s very funny that you’re acting like everyone else is an idiot yet you still don’t understand this.
The choices were genocide or genocide. Apparently some privileged people here haven’t noticed that the genocide has already been getting worse and worse for over a year now.
Maybe electing someone unlikely to restrain them at all while simultaneously making shit worse in the US and Ukraine, doing a 180 on what little climate progress we’ve made, making abortion illegal nationwide, and reducing/ending social security will help.
Biden wasn’t restraining israel at all and Harris kept talking about how she’d be a continuation of Biden. Now you’re bringing in a bunch of other issues that aren’t what these voters are focused on. Turns out you have to appeal to voters to get their votes.
You seem to be under the impression that all discussions between the two countries happened in public. Do I have that right?
If you live with an abusive spouse, but the house is literally build in an island surrounded by lava, A. Maybe your bargaining position is not that good.
B. Maybe, even if it’s super shitty to live with the abusive, its still better that swim in lava, so you bite the bullet and wait the lava cool down
Yeah, except the Uncommitted leadership didn’t tell their people to, “swim in lava,” (if I’m following this tortured extension of the metaphor correctly). As I said, they opposed Trump, and even warned their supporters that voting third-party would help him, they just didn’t endorse Harris because of her failure to make any of the very small concessions they asked for. She put them in a position where, as political leaders, there was no way they could endorse her without completely destroying their own credibility. If she needed their endorsement that badly, then it sounds like her bargaining position wasn’t that good.
and you say, “If you ever treat me like that again, I will leave you,”
Finish the analogy to better fit this issue. You leave your partner for a MORE abusive partner. Why?
…except they didn’t do that. The Uncommitted movement didn’t leave her for Trump; they didn’t endorse Trump and actively warned their members not to vote third-party because it would help him. They just followed through with their threat to withhold their endorsement. If she needed their help that badly, she should have done something to win that endorsement.
“He at least, at least came and spoke to the Muslims. He heard them and said, ‘OK, I will finish. I will end the war in Middle East,’ even if he didn’t say, you know, a genocide, but he said he will bring peace,” she said. “And that’s what the people wanted to hear, and that’s why he got the votes.”
He’s going to “end it” by rushing it to its conclusion you morons! Holy fuck! 🤦♂️
It kind of proves the point that the DNC should have listened to them instead of plugging their ears and walking past them.
Harris didn’t even have to have any plans, but listening was too hard for them. Will they learn from it or blame others? Let’s find out.
It rather proves how flawed the concept of democracy is. People can’t be expected to make rational decisions. This is why candidates fill their campaigns with lies and cheap rhetoric. Because morons will believe it. Sure we’ll all complain later about how “politicians always lie” but the people wanted that anyway.
Trump didn’t listen to them, and he won their vote. So if anything, this proves they wanted someone more like Trump.
Trump did though. Not advocating for his policies but his campaign interacted with Arab voters a lot more than Harris’s.
Harris/Walz visited Wayne County 12 times. Plus another 3 visits by Biden.
Trump/Vance only visited 8 times.
So you are saying that trump connected with Muslim votes more than Harris and Trump visited them even less? So trump had less opportunities to connect to these voters and (pretend to) listen to them. Harris couldn’t outperform trump with the quality of visits?
I agree that Harris and the DNC do have lessons to learn but I don’t think they will. They will continue to blame the voters that they won’t listen to.
Exactly. Trump connected with them better despite fewer visits.
The lesson is that those voters want someone like Trump.
Close. The lesson is voters want to be listened to. You don’t even have to do anything after that. Voters will forget by the next election.
Harris didn’t want to listen, she wanted to go there and tell voters she is better than trump. I agree with that message, but I wasn’t in the audience. Muslims were there. They weren’t listened to at all by Harris. Trump at least said “fine I’ll end the war.” That proves he was listening. Being listened to and heard is enough for most people to go along with you, at least temporarily. Which is what trump needed and worked toward.
As opposed to dragging it out to the same exact conclusion?
Democrats have made it very clear that they’re okay with the final solution as long as its spread out on a long enough timescale
This is the true meaning of incrementalism.
Elabed decided not to vote at the top of the ticket this year and focused instead on downballot races.
Elabed said she feels crushed by the reality of four years of the Trump administration’s policies toward Israel
😑
Misner said it was a difficult decision to vote for Trump. He said the point of the Abandon Harris campaign was to punish the Democrats for supporting Israel during its war in Gaza, which the campaigners view as a genocide, and he hopes the Trump campaign will be more willing to negotiate with group leaders.
Vindication feels awful here, honestly.
“I think the biggest problem is that your messaging to Arab Americans can’t just be ‘Trump’s a fascist, Trump is Hitler. Big, scary orange man, vote for me.’ Part of being a part of the American political system is being able to separate yourself from your opponent and lay out a better vision. And she did not do that,” Abdelrahman said.
-
Negative messaging works, as much as people like to pretend it doesn’t.
-
If you saw a literal fascist openly declaring fascist things, and your response to the milquetoast opposition is “Well, you’re not seperated enough, stylistically”, you’re not much more than a fascist enabler.
-
In what fucking way is “Not fascism” not a better vision than “Literal fucking fascism”?
“She could have at least called for a ceasefire,” Khan said. (Harris repeatedly called for a ceasefire during her campaign, including during her Democratic convention speech.)
Ah, it’s just like being on Lemmy!
“Even in politics, humanity should be the first and the foremost thing to to be respected, to be valued, right? And [the] Democratic Party clearly, clearly, for an entire year showed us they do not care about human life,” Khan said. “They do not care about their constituents, how they feel about the massacre.”
Ah, yes, humanity is the first and foremost thing to be respected, which is why LGBT Americans have been served to fascists on a silver platter as a protest vote. Peak humanity.
“She could have at least called for a ceasefire,” Khan said. (Harris repeatedly called for a ceasefire during her campaign, including during her Democratic convention speech.)
Ah, it’s just like being on Lemmy!
Oh great, this point again. They changed the meaning of the word ceasefire they were using. They tried to coopt the term into a meaningless one, while Muslims meant a ceasefire with actual effort and teeth behind it, meaning some sort of leverage, not the meaningless one of the Biden administration.
Keel in mind that Biden is still President and they completely ignored the letter they sent before about Israel having thirty days to change their human rights violations. So they clearly don’t give a shit even though they don’t even have to worry about reelection anymore so we can’t blame that.
Ah, yes, humanity is the first and foremost thing to be respected, which is why LGBT Americans have been served to fascists on a silver platter as a protest vote. Peak humanity.
You can’t feign outrage about people served on a platter when you did that exact same thing to people undergoing an active genocide. “First they came for the Palestinians, and I ignored them, because they’re not white.” Is that how the poem goes? You were willing to sacrifice an entire ethnic group so you can feel comfortable. Too many Americans were. Now we’re all going to suffer together, and frankly, we’re going to deserve it.
which is why LGBT Americans have been served to fascists on a silver platter as a protest vote.
If you are queer and have any way out, get out. If you can’t get out, scrub your internet history as clean as you possibly can because they will hunt you down.
God I hate it but there’s going to have to be a new underground railroad for pregnant women and queer and brown people…
Gay people aren’t more important than Muslims
Good news! To the Republicans neither are important and they would gladly see both groups disappear, so a vote for them and a refusal to vote for the Democrats was just support for both Muslim AND LGBTQ+ genocide! Good job everyone!
Good news, genocide is genocide. You’re just upset it might effect you now.
Affect.
And no, it won’t affect me, I’m a white CIS hereto guy living outside the USA.
I hope you sleep comfortably knowing that your protest vote or non vote will result in the death of more Muslims. I guess they’re not important to you either.
What other languages do you speak?
But no, it doesn’t stop with the US, and if it’s not stopped no where will be safe for you either. Mostly cis white men died in the Holocaust.
French is my first language.
I’m not Jewish either, as a baptized Catholic you don’t have to worry, I’m safe, unlike those Muslims and LGBTQ+ and Ukrainians and so many more which you’ve condemned to genocide. Hell, even blacks, Latinos, first Nations and Arabs inside the US are in even more danger than they were because of people who didn’t want to vote for the lesser of two evils or who voted for the Republicans to “teach the Democrats a lesson”.
Well that lesson will be taught at the expense of a whole lot of minorities and foreigners so fuck you, especially since you recognize that you just made the whole fucking world more dangerous for everyone.
Sorry my genocide is finally affecting you, and yes it will affect you.
Hope you stop being a far right lunatic and stop supporting them.
Gay people aren’t more important than Muslims
It would seem that they are considerably less important than virtue signaling to Muslims for many voters, yes.
Ah so we all need to respect your views, but when it comes to not wanting to support genocide label it virtue signaling.
Liberals are so pathetic. I’m sure that condescending everyone you meet will win you tons of votes.
You all spend so much time chasing fascist voters and then act so surprised when the fascists are suddenly legitimized by society.
What I am not surprised about, at all, is that all the “don’t vote for her” people like yourself (apparently) are now claiming they are not in any way responsible for a fascist getting elected. It’s everyone else’s fault, but the person who literally said to not vote for the only other option than the fascist shares none of the blame.
And if that isn’t you, you’re defending people who share the blame. Which, I would say, falls into the camp of ‘pathetic’ as well.
Nah man, fascism is already here. If you, me, and the rest of the Democrats were willing to tolerate a genocide to keep a system enabling a genocide, then it can’t be denied. We weren’t delaying fascism, we just weren’t the current target of it and because of that, you couldn’t see it. We’re all fucked but it’s because of these exact attitudes that allowed dehumanization to be accepted.
I’m sorry… did you just suggest that queer and brown people deserve to be victims of a genocide because of Democrats?
What, no? Well, as much as you’re saying that Palestinians deserve to be victims of a genocide to protect LGBTQ people. Brown people are already being genocided btw.
Ah so we all need to respect your views, but when it comes to not wanting to support genocide label it virtue signaling.
Not sure what else you’d call selling out queer folk to feel good about yourself.
The DNC did that by running shit candidates back to back to back who either couldn’t defeat a blatant, moronic fascist or just barely beat him by the skin of their teeth with the aid of a massive pandemic and economic turmoil fresh in everyone’s mind. They sold out the whole country in favor of maintaining the status quo for their corporate masters and major donors.
I will always condescend to bigots and fascists, and I’m proud to do it. If we don’t “chase” them, they’ll win permanently.
I guess it’s easier to just roll over and pretend the biggest fascist of all is acceptable. That way you don’t have to admit that you made a bad decision, and you can spend the next four years savoring your moral victory and calling people “pathetic”. You’re awesome.
Entirely missing the point, this has to be a troll
Oh hey, the famous .world reason for mass banning of dissent and opposing positions.
Your response was a strawman. No one was saying anyone was more important than anyone else, you just tossed out that nonsense instead of trying to actually participate in a conversation.
You don’t have an opposing position, you just want to be contrarian and make outrageous statemens, which is just a fancy way to say you’re a troll. Maybe it’s famous because a lot of people like you troll and get called out for that nonsense.
But queer people domestically are apparently far less important than Muslims in another country.
But I look forward to the people who told me “there won’t be a genocide of queer people” telling me that the genocide isn’t happening.
They just shut put their hands over their eyes whenever I showed them this after all…
Sorry your support of genocide might now effect you
It’s like the literal progression of the poem and people still act surprised.
I have a long history here on Lemmy. Let’s see if you can find one single comment where I support genocide.
Affect.
-
at the end of the day Democrats had their check writers to think about which is why they intentionally lost
Harris consistently had wins handed to her on gold platters and Harris repeatedly stuck her nose up at the platters
Democrats are not the party of the people or progressives but just Republicans with different coat colors on getting checks from the same places
Is your username a back-formation of Verdana, the font?
no just verdant
BOOoooOoOoTh SiIIiiiIidEs!!!1
You have two choices for ship’s captain.
One wants to paint the interior a color you hate. Like, it’s the worst color you’ve ever seen. And she won’t even listen to you about changing it.
The other wants to run the ship into an iceberg.
Hope you brought a life jacket.
You forgot to mention that the current captain is shooting one POC person a day while it heads into an iceberg.
And the first choice for new captain is the current first mate who by all accounts will not change course, and keeps promising to uphold the shoot a POC person a day policy. And you’re acting surprised they’re not getting popular support from that group.
I’m not surprised. People are pretty stupid, little shocks me these days.
Lol ya, but that’s been done on purpose. They’ve been underfunding public institutions, including education, for decades, and trying to privatize it. They have been making university seem like it’s only purpose is as a job-training center instead of also opening your mind and improving critical thinking while making it more expensive. They’ve been spewing propaganda at us the whole time through billionaire-funded news and media while slowly undercutting public broadcasting. It’s all been pretty successful apparently.
That analogy is very flawed and, within the context of Arab voters, crosses the realm of “insensitive” and well into “fucking stupid” territory.
I’ll start with the “very flawed” part. Harris didn’t promise to “paint the interior an ugly color”, she promised to sit and watch while the ship slowly sunk and maybe open a few small holes. She promised stagnation and yet more rightward shifting to people who are being driven closer and closer to poverty every day. Sure, she was better than Trump, but she still had massive policy and attitude flaws that can’t be called “painting the interior a bad color”.
Now for the “fucking stupid” part: Harris was promising to do exactly the same things Biden was doing in Palestine. She promised that and still expected—or thought she could do without—Arab votes. Votes from people who were losing loved ones and attending funerals because of the policy she completely unapologetically promised to continue. Comparing killing her voters’ families to “painting the ship a bad color” is, as I said above, fucking stupid.
That analogy is very flawed
two choices
Nope. Binary race. No other contender has a chance.
promised to sit and watch
Binary race. Pick between the two.
she was better than Trump
Ah! So you get it.
Harris was promising to do exactly the same things Biden was doing in Palestine
Ah! So between the two, neither offers a better plan for meddling in another country’s politics. It’s a tough thing when neither choice for America happens to support that one other country. It’s also then not a discerning factor then, in a binary race, when determining the best of two options.
If you don’t choose, you need to accept what comes down to a coin flip.
This is what blew my mind. I thought this was all obvious, and that people understood there was simply no pro-Palestine option on the table.
Sometimes the available options aren’t what you want, but I also think it better to make non-emotional decisions about candidates where possible.
These people are seriously throwing a tantrum because Arab voters didn’t vote for their friends and family to be murdered. This is insane.
People were making this argument every day before the election and it didn’t work.
Trump was always worse. But Harris still had to win people’s votes. If this argument worked we would have had Hilary in 2016.
You need to actually have something to offer beyond the other side being worse.
Allowing Trump to win was “fucking stupid” for anyone that actually cares about this genocide. Accelerating everything for innocent people from the comfort of your western home - all that matters is your virtue signaling.
If this was a race (which it might me given the state of AI and mass surveillance) you would all immediately smash into a wall thinking the shortest distance is fastest ignoring the reality of the track in front of you. Geopolitics is real.
If I hear this crap one more time I’m going to make the news.
What, you’re going to murder someone in an act of pointless violence? Great call.
Maybe you hear it all the time because it’s the reality. You can just bury your head in the sand harder I guess, that’s an option.
You already have. Mostly in the “people regret their obviously stupid decision” category.
The real reason America deserves to fall to fascism is that you still have bootlickers in this very thread pretending the Harris campaign really did all it could to win, and it was the fault of the mean, nasty leftists online calling out her support for a genocide that got Trump elected.
Nobody is gonna learn a goddamn thing from this election, just like they haven’t for decades. American democracy died before I was born, people are just realizing it now.
People might learn. They might learn that corporate Democrats are worthless. That would be an interesting day.
The Trump campaign went all out with a campaign to offend and alienate, ensure everyone knew he’s unfit to be in charge of getting out of bed. Yet somehow he failed to drive away voters in droves
Decades ago the corporatists and oligarchs traded in the currency of societal need and societal trends. Having exploited those markets and needing more, they’ve perfected leveraging societal stupidity. Stupidity is the currency that now powers capitalism.
Removed by mod
Their comment contributed to the discussion. Yours sows discord while contributing nothing. You are the problem here.
And find themselves without fault?
Maybe Harris and the Democrats should’ve spent less time chasing Republicans and fascists for votes.
I voted for her btw. But is incredible how Dem voters repeatedly allow their leadership to be so weak and outt of touch.
And maybe people who repeatedly told others “don’t vote for Harris” should claim some culpability for people not voting for Harris…
But it’s amazing that every time I suggest that, someone has to talk about the faults of the Harris campaign as if you can’t blame more than one party. It’s whataboutism.
If you [general you] tell people not to vote for Harris and they don’t vote for Harris and then Trump wins, you have some culpability.
Those people weren’t running for president. They may be culpable but it’s no where near the same level as the actual party leadership.
Dems conveniently blame everyone but their own leadership every time they lose an election and therefore never learn anything from it.
Cool. I’m not a Democrat and this isn’t about the Democrats. This is about the people who wanted others to not vote for Harris. Stop trying to change the subject.
Who are these people you’re claiming said “don’t vote for Harris?” You and I had plenty of back and fourths before and after the election about what a shit job Biden (and then Harris) was doing campaigning but I never once told anyone who to vote for and I don’t recall anyone else doing that either. You seem to conflate “valid criticism of a candidate and their policies” to “telling you who to vote for” and that just isn’t the case.
You have a very poor memory if you claim you don’t remember anyone saying to not vote for Harris. Considering it’s even mentioned in the headline of this post, a very poor memory indeed.
It’s mentioned in the title in reference to some far-flung group not represented here. I’m talking about here on Lemmy.
not the voters’ job to make themselves buyable
that is all on the candidates
Yes let us hold blameless those who didn’t give enough of a shit to piss on America when it was on fire. Your true colors show here.
You already hold Biden and Harris blameless.
We are not talking about the voters or the candidates here. We are talking about the people telling voters not to vote for someone and then pretending they had no culpability whatsoever when that person loses. Thank you for proving my point.
If they’re telling people not to vote for someone because they’re doing something they can by all accounts stop doing, then it’s still on the candidate.
Yes, I understand both you and Mr. Banana, who went out of his way to constantly tell people not to vote for Harris every single day on Lemmy up through the first day in November, you want to divorce your words from any actual real effect they might have.
It’s very Republican of both of you.
You might have me mistaken for someone else. I went out of my way to get people to vote for her but also knew she was doomed if she kept up her current path because I recognized what happened in 2016 and so kept criticizing her for supporting the genocide. I tried to set up a freaking vote exchange thread to swap votes with people in swing states even and got criticized by people here for even trying. I was trying harder than most people here because I recognized the danger and the patterns, instead of burying my head in the sand. I felt like freaking Cassandra lol.
People told others not to vote Harris because she sucked as a candidate
Not the citizens’ fault billionaires rigged the election again
I see you don’t understand cause and effect.
If you tell someone not to do something and then they don’t do it, you’re part of the cause.
TYpIcAl ShItLiB LoGiC /s
This is America. I’m dumbfounded by the decision making skills we have, collectively.
Pollution, lack of education funding, lots of police, lots of jobs with below living wages, no healthcare
All adds up to what we have now
And again not the voters’ fault we got got sold out for the check writers
