It seems that there are a lot of Israelis that believe that there are no innocents in Gaza. And one could argue that it’s possible that a significant majority of the population is hateful towards Israelis, considering the history.
If you agree with this argument, can you please explain why and elaborate? And if you don’t, how would you refute it? There is no data that shows that there isn’t a significant majority that’s hateful towards the Israelis.
DISCLAIMER: I’m not stating my opinion as I want to hear an unbiased opinion from you.
They are brainwashed supporters of genocide. I read about a guy who left to get his 2 newborn twins registered at the hospital and they got killed along with his wife while he was away.
“No innocents.”? Fuck you. I wouldn’t wish this misery on my absolute most hated enemy.
A core principle of modern (western) legal states is that it’s preferable to let 10 guilty people walk free before wrongfully punishing one innocent. I’m aware that we often don’t manage to live up to that, but it is the ideal.
That’s why guilt of the individual (!) has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt, it’s why certain evidence may become inadmissible if it’s been acquired illegally, it’s why suspect’s may walk free due to formal errors. We try to make absolutely sure that cutting corners doesn’t lead to wrong conclusions, even if it means that we sometimes have to let criminals go unpunished.
Following that same principle, “it’s possible that there’s a significant majority” isn’t enough. Where’s the proof that there’s not a single inhabitant of Gaza who doesn’t support Hamas?
Also, since when is it a crime punishable by lifelong imprisonment or death to be hateful of someone?
And if you and your entire people were held in an open air prison for as long as you could think back, would you not grow hateful of your jailers?
Last but not least: The logic that “there are no innocents [on the other side of the fence]” applied by Hamas towards the Israelis led to October 7th. If it was flawed then, how is it not flawed now?
Insofar that you add “innocent of absolutely anything and everything that anyone could ever morally doubt, on a philosophical lebel”, definitely no.
Innocent as in not responsible for the crimes of others? Yeah, obviously. Depends though but vastly yes.
That is usually how a genocide is justified to the public. Every member of the ‘undesireabe’ group is guilty of being an undesirable, and can thus be justifyably murdered.
Examples:
All Jewish people are guilty of some conspiracy and/or killing Jesus
All Muslim people are guilty of replacing white christians and/or terrorism
All LGBTQ people are guilty of grooming kids
All Palestinians are guilty of ‘occupying’ Israeli land.
etc.
Every example of this is a tool of propaganda to get the public to go along with unfair treatment up to and including genocide. The fact that they’re all easily refuted doesn’t matter. It goes hand in hand with the view that the group aren’t fully people.
This reasoning is never ok, no matter what group of people it’s used against this time. When you recognize it, call it out for the sham it is.
Hard no.
The idea that your can judge an entire group of people to be innocent or not is heavily flawed. Even if any groups cultural influence was hypothetically incredibly evil, do people deserve death for being influenced by their surroundings? How do we gauge who has true evil in their heart, and who was harbouring doubts but couldn’t say anything? We literally can’t, and that kind of thinking shouldn’t be used to decide judgement of a person, let alone who lives and who dies. In practical terms things get muddier sure, but we’re way past that point.
At this point I feel like the conclusion of violence is made first, then the justification coming afterwards.
How about there are no innocent billionaires?
Those who say there are innocent seem to lack empathy.
What is a child guilty of in the conflict? There are always non combatants who are stuck in this wanting no part on either side.
According to sarah silverman theyll grow up to hate israel so they gotta go (I dont like how she kinda got away from being cancelled because she was already irrelevent and shut off her comments for a year to avoid backlash) Midly salty I was her fan and thought she was a woke comedian because she told mfs to vote once.
You missed a word in there.
I don’t think it’s lack of empaty, or rather, it’s not just lack of empaty, I think it’s more an active lumping together of people and ancestry.
So much so Zionist, and Nazi, are into their own a-priori “positive” quality, coherently, absurdly so, Palestinian children have a-priori negative qualities.
I feel sick just typing this because I would think this is very very very clearly idiotic. But it seems to take hold of plenty of people’s worldview.
They lack empathy for the out group.
And often folks like that don’t really have much empathy for the in group once the masks come off.
Those people who say that are just trying to justify their own hatred/bigotry/war crimes.
Palestinians have every right and plenty of reasons to hate Israelis as far as I am concerned
Its like with Nazi germany. Sure not literally ALL germans supported hitler but they also just didnt do enough to stop him. When your children are killed by people with israeli flags, its hard not to hate the whole country.
That doesnt make them guilty of anything other than hatred however. The amount of people in gaza actively involved in killing israeli civilians is close to zero. Killing soldiers occupying your land is not great but arguably not morally bad.
There were literally thousands of Hamas fighters who entered Israel by land, sea, and air on Oct 7, 2023. They captured and held territory, killed 1200 people, kidnapped hundreds more, and committed war crimes. Hamas claims that they have/had 10s of thousands more fighters. The scale of these numbers is undisputed.
How is that “close to zero?”
They killed ~800 civilians according to Israel, but Israel has refused any independent investigation into these numbers and their causes of death. Likely the number was much lower and a lot were killed by Israel fire in the confusion or under hannibal directive.
The number of Hamas fighters that actually had civilian blood on their hands was at the time of the attack surely not in the thousands, because how can multiple people kill a single person.
After 16 months of bombing, arrests and starvation the number of hamas fighters alive that have actually killed any Israeli civilians is bound to have dwindled to a fraction of the initial number. All that is left are military forces engaged in war with other military forces.
All the while tens of thousands probably more than 100k univolved gazans have been killed by bombing, gunfire or starvation.
In terms of hatred im sure most gazans would be happy if Israel crumbled, but people are to be judged for actions not thoughts.
A whole different topic of discussion is whether settlers occupying and partying on internationally disputed territory should be considered civilians.
A whole different topic of discussion is whether settlers occupying and partying on internationally disputed territory should be considered civilians.
That answers your opinion the “no innocent Israelis” question.
Thousands compared to a population of over a million is very negligible. Even if every single one of them actively targeted civilians. ‘A negligibly small percentage’ is sometimes colloquially referred to as ‘practically zero’.
It’s about 1.4%
Israel lists about 160000 active duty IDF. That’s about 1.6% - practically zero according to you?
USA active duty is about 0.6%
It’s not like they came out of nowhere. If they were framed as the Rebellion in a dystopian movie, everybody would be cheering for them. Probably asking why the other 98.6% of the population aren’t participating.
Isn’t that just neutrality?
Edit: Oh you meant “no innocents in enemy territory”. No, that’s not valid.
A friend of mine said something reaaaaaalllllly controversial. IDF claims everyone in GAZA is a terrorist. But look at Israel, everyone has mandatory military service. Everyone has either been in IDF, is currently in IDF, or will be in IDF.
If anything the opposite of “everyone in GAZA is a terrorist” holds more ground honestly.
It holds slightly more ground but it’s still hateful propaganda.
The existence of conscientious objectors alone renders its logic invalid. And there are many other issues as well.
Children are not born with hatred in their heart.
And as others have pointed out, hatred =/= not innocent. Nobody deserves to die just for hating someone. Even if you could justify killing someone just cause they allegedly hate you, I have a very very difficult time believing that all Palestinians hate Israelis and vice versa. Again, people are not born with hatred in their heart and the actions of a government don’t always reflect the feelings of their citizens.
Also just being pedantic about your disclaimer: opinions are biased. You can’t ask for an unbiased opinion. You can make an unbiased (to an extent) statement, but not an opinion.
They meant an opinion less influenced by the opinion of the surveyor.
Ask those people if there are any innocents in Israel. All of that society contributed to a genocide. We could ask the same thingabout the US. I didn’t get thrown in jail from repeated protesting, so I’m just as much to blame.
If you had, you think any good would have come of it?
Me? No. A million of us, back in July? Yeah. We could have a made a dent.
A million huh? At that point there would not be any arrests. But if that was what was necessary, i don’t think it was a possibility to begin with. I generally do not believe that protesting does much unless it is super disruptive to everyday life. People protest every day, exactly where and how the powers aT be allow them to happen. Out of sight out of mind.
This bs reasoning is literally “I dont vote because Im just one in a million and it doesnt make a difference”
I don’t think this is a properly formed question because there’s a difference between “not hateful” and “innocent”. “Innocent” also needs further qualification - innocent of what?
Also, there are no “unbiased opinion” on anything, that’s just not possible.
Also, there are no “unbiased opinion” on anything, that’s just not possible.
It is possible to get someone’s opinion without accidentally influencing them, which is what they’re referring to.
Yeah, that seems to make sense I suppose. Although that makes me wonder if OP thinks they have enough impact to meaningfully influence opinions…
Subtle influences on the way people think or talk about their thoughts are so common I’m surprised we even have to talk about the phenomenon.
I’m not going to fundamentally change my opinion just because of what some rando on the interwebz says to get a discussion going.
In any case it doesn’t matter who would or wouldn’t do that. Op was simply saying they’d rather say less to avoid the risk.
But you probably will talk about it differently in some circumstances. Assuming you’re a human.
You don’t know, maybe I’m all powerful.
And if you don’t, how would you refute it? There is no data that shows that there isn’t a significant majority that’s hateful towards the Israelis.
First, you can’t just say “there is no data that shows that there isn’t X”; you need data that shows X. However, you’ll probably find that data fairly easily, because Palestinians hate Israelis’ guts. That gets us to the real problem with this argument: Having an opinion doesn’t make one guilty of anything. Only acts can make one guilty, acts like—for example—voting for Likud and other Israeli pro-war parties knowing they’re running on a campaign of Palestinian extermination. It’s just more projection from fascists (and make no mistake Zionism is a fascist ideology. For reference see: https://zionism.wtf.)
No, if you believe that you’re a genocidal maniac.
