• Semi-Hemi-Demigod
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    1009 months ago

    Rich people are just better, and because they’re better anything they do with their money is automatically better. So they should get all the money and if you want to be a good person just get rich like them.

    • idunnololz
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      99 months ago

      Oh so that’s why I’m such a terrible person. This checks out.

    • @[email protected]
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      39 months ago

      It’s funny because it’s really close to the truth:

      Rich people are just better [at getting other’s money], and because they’re better [at getting other’s money] anything they do with their money is automatically better [at getting other’s money]. So they should will get all the money and if you want to be a good person [at getting other’s money] just get rich better [at getting other’s money] like them.

  • @[email protected]
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    959 months ago

    It’s actually about power and leverage, not lifestyle. Rich people don’t actually spend most of their money on personal luxuries, they spend it on acquiring more wealth, which translates into more control over resources and people’s lives. Regular people don’t actually spend most of their money on luxuries, they spend it on maintaining their place in a world someone else owns.

    The narrative that it is about what level of material status someone is living in or deserves is a distraction. It wouldn’t matter at all if the rich started living more spartan lifestyles. They still have the wealth and power, that will manifest one way or another as control over other people’s lives, and that’s what they’re really there for.

    • @[email protected]
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      409 months ago

      The point is that if that money is used to pay employees properly, the wealth/power balances evaporate, and we’ll have a much fairer society society where our democracy isn’t undermined by monied interests.

      • @[email protected]
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        9 months ago

        if [yacht money] is used to pay employees properly, the wealth/power balances evaporate

        Several issues with this. As other comments have pointed out, the specific money in question here isn’t actually very significant. But say you expand what’s considered to all company profits. A company won’t voluntarily pay more for a service of a given quality than they have to, because its existence depends on being better at profit seeking than other companies. If they do have to (maybe because of a regulation) pay more than the market rate, the priority is going to be reorganizing the business to employ fewer people, overwork the people who are still employed, or otherwise arrange themselves so that as much of the profits as possible are still going to the owners. The power dynamic between employer and employee remains the same, because their relative negotiating power is largely unchanged, and so would be the balance of wealth.

        • @[email protected]
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          139 months ago

          the specific money in question here isn’t actually very significant.

          It’s all the revenue leeched away from workers to shareholders - that’s the majority of the entire global economy. What are you talking about?

          A company won’t voluntarily pay more for a service of a given quality than they have to, because its existence depends on being better at profit seeking than other companies.

          I’m not proposing we make it voluntary.

          If they do have to (maybe because of a regulation) pay more than the market rate, the priority is going to be reorganizing the business to employ fewer people, overwork the people who are still employed, or otherwise arrange themselves so that as much of the profits as possible are still going to the owners.

          Companies aren’t welfare schemes - they run as lean as possible today. I’m proposing the workers be the owners.

          The power dynamic between employer and employee remains the same, because their relative negotiating power is largely unchanged, and so would be the balance of wealth.

          Workers own the company, workers get paid fairly, workers decide how the company is run. Shareholders no longer exist, and must live off the welfare state or get a real goddamn job.

          • @[email protected]
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            9 months ago

            I’m proposing the workers be the owners.

            What I like about this solution is that it does to some extent directly address the problem of negotiating power. I am skeptical about the practicality and sustainability though. For example there was a worker owned brewery I was aware of, which had an employment scheme in which accumulated time in the company translated into shares of ownership. The brewery became successful, and the now somewhat wealthy workers preferred to keep their wealth rather than continuing to distribute it to new employees, and so they voted to sell and accept a payout. I’m not sure this is an easily solved issue; it seems that any financial endeavor will have winners and losers, and the winners will do what they can to retain their position.

            • @[email protected]
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              9 months ago

              This is because co-ops these days still have to compete in a capitalist market, and need to be ruthless to remain competitive. I’m not saying this is good. Just that it’s not a problem inherent to worker management - it’s a problem with the system they have to work under.

              If this worker management extended to the whole economy - i.e. socialism - then these incentives would no longer exist. The economy would no longer be a competition requiring ruthless tactics.

              • @[email protected]
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                9 months ago

                I don’t think it would be. What happens when someone leaves the company or is pushed out? Automatically lose their shares? Who determines what proportion of shares or pay you get for which roles or level of seniority? What about nepotism? Ownership implies control, control gets used to advance your own interests.

                • @[email protected]
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                  19 months ago

                  This is far enough down the line with enough positive progress to be had in the meantime (e.g. German-style employee representation in boards, greater share grants to employees, etc.) that I’m comfortable figuring that one out later.

                  My gut feel would be that you share profits while you work for the company and lose the shares when you leave. There would be a fairly equitable allocation of shares irrespective of roles with employees to vote for greater allocations if needs dictate. Nepotism would be dramatically reduced compared to today with a more democratic workplace. Much like I like my countries democratic, I like my workplaces democratic - the interests of the workers are the interests of the nation.

          • @[email protected]
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            -39 months ago

            Shareholders at least the ones beating the market have a different skill set to workers. Replacing them with other workers might have issues with long term success.

            I think you’d be better off changing laws that suppress workers wages and laws that unnecessary increase their expenses particularly rent

            • @[email protected]
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              59 months ago

              Owning things isn’t a skill, my dude. This is evident in the fact that almost the entire human race owns something.

                • @[email protected]
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                  9 months ago

                  Of what value is that to society? If there’s no value and massive downsides, why should we protect reward them?

                • @[email protected]
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                  19 months ago

                  When the market is shaped by austerity politics, corporate welfare, and wage depression, then “getting an above market return” depends on austerity politics, corporate welfare, and wage depression (which still is not the same as the “skill set” of owning shares).

                  Your objection sidesteps the broader observations, of how the masses of workers are oppressed by the greed of the very few, who sustain a self-serving narrative.

            • @[email protected]
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              49 months ago

              That skillset would no longer be relevant; their jobs would be made redundant. Companies in this scenario no longer need to seek growth and increasing profit margins. They only need to earn enough to pay their own salaries. And, because the workers are the ones who collectively manage the company, they can democratically make strategic plans for future production, and logistical changes to increase efficiency and reduce the amount of work necessary and improve their working conditions.

              • @[email protected]
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                19 months ago

                In abstract sense, when you make profit, it means that you’ve made a sufficiently good path to some end for other people. Like in electrical engineering.

                The more your “path-shortening” effect, the bigger your profit.

                It’s a system leading to optimization (in abstract).

                they can democratically make strategic plans for future production, and logistical changes to increase efficiency and reduce the amount of work necessary and improve their working conditions

                While this isn’t.

                I’d be happy to see any idea aimed at improving human life conditions, general happiness and so on succeed. Just with leftist conversations it always looks like “the brakes and safety measures are making the car too expensive, let’s get rid of them”.

                • @[email protected]
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                  19 months ago

                  In abstract sense, when you make profit, it means that you’ve made a sufficiently good path to some end for other people.

                  In an abstract sense, sure. But in reality, profit does not require you to do any good. If it’s more expensive to dispose of waste ethically, for example, then waste will be disposed of unethically.

                  Like in electrical engineering.

                  Yes, I can’t argue that jobs exist that help other people.

                  The more your “path-shortening” effect, the bigger your profit.

                  Not necessarily. Insurance is one example.

                  It’s a system leading to optimization (in abstract).

                  In the abstract, I agree. But left to play out, monopoly and bureaucracy inevitably emerge.

                  While this isn’t.

                  Why not?

                  I’d be happy to see any idea aimed at improving human life conditions, general happiness and so on succeed.

                  Okay. Me, too.

                  Just with leftist conversations it always looks like “the brakes and safety measures are making the car too expensive, let’s get rid of them”.

                  I really don’t mean to be snide, but you have this backwards. Under capitalism, it requires the state to intervene to regulate it in order to, for example, add safety measures to cars. Socialist economies are, as I mentioned, democratic. The people need safety measures, and the people are in control of production, so safety measures will be in place.

            • @[email protected]
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              39 months ago

              I agree. As a major shareholder and successful business owner, I’m far better at relaxing on a beach in Bali than the lazy poors are. Our skill sets are not comparable.

        • Franzia
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          59 months ago

          The power dynamic between employer and employee remains the same, because their relative negotiating power is largely unchanged, and so would be the balance of wealth.

          Louder for the people in the back.

        • @[email protected]
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          59 months ago

          If we can level the inequality before transitioning so power doesn’t just reconsolidate, yeah - that’d be great.

    • @[email protected]
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      9 months ago

      Many other distractions, like skin color, religion, sex orientation. Poor have one advantage and that is the numbers, at least in democracies. So you need to gerrymander them in any way you can think about.

      • @[email protected]
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        29 months ago

        No, having superior numbers is not necessarily an advantage. Crowds have unpleasant effects due to scale, when you’d want to organize them on some issue or even just inform them.

  • @[email protected]
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    469 months ago

    The difference is that when you say “I can’t pay my employees more” most employees begrudgingly accept the pay they get anyway. But when someone says “I can’t pay my rent”, the landlord evicts them.

    If not paying your employees more actually resulted in having no employees, they would be equivalent. The only practical way to make that happen is unionization.

    • ANGRY_MAPLE
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      169 months ago

      It’s bizarre seeing that disconnect in real life.

      At my last job, the wages were stagnant for years. The company held meetings to boast that they were making record profits, the highest increase yet. The following month, they refused to raise wages because it would be too expensive.

      Somehow, they were shocked when practically everyone who was skilled left. They couldn’t get new people in the door, either.

      They ended up having to raise everyone’s wages. (YAY union!)

    • @[email protected]
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      9 months ago

      You’re so close to hitting the fundamental truth here.

      A landlord evicts someone who cannot pay rent because there are other people who can pay rent.

      Employees leave if an employer pays too low if there are other, better-paying options available.

      As there are typically, though not always, more available workers than available jobs at a given pay rate, the workers lack the employer demand necessary to set pricing wholesale.

      The reason wages have been rising lately is because employers have been unable to find workers at previous salaries. There are most definitely businesses that have folded because of this - the business model for those companies did not account for higher wages, and raising prices was not possible in the interim.

      That’s the actual interplay between these market forces, and yes, the reason that unionization is effective (and often necessary) in raising wages. It’s why collective bargaining is an essential control on labor markets

    • @[email protected]
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      49 months ago

      Correct. In one example the tenants are against the actual contract they need more than the landlord. In another it’s the other way around with business owners and employees.

      It’s about negotiating power. Life isn’t perfect. Everybody has their own idea of humanism, fairness etc (albeit often similar to many other people). From that point to synchronize you either walk away, negotiate or use violence. The latter should cause immediate removal of the initiator from the society, though that doesn’t happen IRL - IRL that initiator is sometimes rewarded by various cockroaches. Walking away or negotiating is what normal humans in general do with varying results.

    • Flying Squid
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      29 months ago

      They accept it because what else can they do? A lot of them aren’t in unions and even if all of them quit, how are they going to find new jobs?

      • @[email protected]
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        69 months ago

        The thing is that it hurts the employer just as much as the workers if everyone quits, so if you unionize first, then threaten to stop working, then you’ve got someone who can negotiate with the employer so that you don’t have to quit and you get paid enough to not make you want to quit.

        • Flying Squid
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          89 months ago

          At my job, and I am looking for work elsewhere, you had to sign an employment contract saying you wouldn’t unionize. That doesn’t sound legal, but this is Indiana, so it probably is. If you want to know why I signed, I was desperate for a job.

      • @Bluescluestoothpaste
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        49 months ago

        If the corporations are making record profits, that means theyre hiring, it means you can go work for a rival.

        • Flying Squid
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          39 months ago

          I’m looking. The problem is I have sort of a weird and eclectic resume, which doesn’t look great to employers.

    • @[email protected]
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      19 months ago

      Both wages and prices are those most advantageous to the owning class as most oppressive to the working class.

      The purpose of the post is to challenge the austerity narrative, of the immiseration of the working class being natural or necessary, more than simply desired by the greed of the owning class.

  • BarqsHasBite
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    9 months ago

    They think they got rich by sacrificing lattes and avocado toast. Therefore… you can be rich too!

    • @[email protected]
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      9 months ago

      I still remember reading a blog by someone explaining how easy it is to become rich like them. Step 3 or 4 was “Rent out the downtown condo your mother gifted you when you got married and continue living at home working at your parents non-profit” because obviously everyone gets a free condo when they get married.

      As much of a joke as it sounds, the person was completely serious.

      • @[email protected]
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        239 months ago

        Mitt Romney’s wife shared this lovely story of when they were in college, they didn’t ask anything from their parents. They’d come visit and got them a nice dinner, that was it. Ann Romney had to order carpet samples and sew them together so they didn’t have to walk on bare floors. Sometimes, they were so stripped of cash that they had to sell stock to get money. They had to sell stock. SELL. STOCK.

        She probably thought it was an uplifting story.

        • @[email protected]
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          99 months ago

          I vividly remember that and it really was as out of touch as it sounds. Mitt released a bunch of tax returns at least, voluntarily unlike someone else, and they confirm his extraordinary wealth. Out of touch doesn’t begin to describe some of these people.

    • @[email protected]
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      19 months ago

      Rationalizing something that just happened to you in life’s lottery is a very common thing for humans.

      I mean, some people here thinking that they are not “rich” because of being honest, cause all the “rich” are dishonest bastards, is of the same root.

      I agree that both are wrong and also that being that disconnected from the reality is bad. It’s just that there are much more categories other than rich/poor in which many of us got the longer stick.

  • @[email protected]
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    269 months ago

    Shareholders are leeches on society. Every dollar they earn was snatched from the workers that earned that dollar. We should focus on incentivising people that work for a living - not the lazy cunts that just own shit.

    • @[email protected]
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      179 months ago

      And unfortunately businesses have abdicated their responsibility for their workers retirements to the market. Many of us are now shareholders by way of our 401Ks.

      • @[email protected]
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        29 months ago

        Personally I sleep much better at night knowing I’m in control of my own wealth and retirement planning. I wouldn’t want my retirement to be in the hands of a pension plan administered by my employer or a third party.

  • xigoi
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    159 months ago

    They can afford to give the employees a bigger wage, they just don’t want to because the employees are willing to work for the current wage.

    • Tb0n3
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      89 months ago

      That and even small raises over a large group add up significantly. It’s literally cheaper for them to spend millions fighting it.

    • @[email protected]
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      79 months ago

      Willing takes out all the nuance. Forced to do so because of market forces, available jobs, location, skills, other responsibilities…

    • Franzia
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      59 months ago

      Two neoliberals won’t be our only choices forever.

      • @[email protected]
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        19 months ago

        We have competition amongst economists and the marketplace of ideas will always continue to evolve toward better neoliberalism.

        • Franzia
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          29 months ago

          That’s funny because this system is highly inefficient and anti-meritocratic. The marketplace of ideas seems like it doesn’t even stock my favorite brands.

    • @[email protected]
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      9 months ago

      Yes, Hayek is still relevant. And you are right, just took time to understand.

      People thinking he’s not are ignorant in mathematical statistics, control theory and obviously economics. I mean, ignorance and leftism, as always.

  • @[email protected]
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    19 months ago

    Lots of bootlickers are simply not understanding the intended message, of challenging the austerity narrative promulgated by the ruling class, which supports their selfish interests of private accumulation by oppressing the working class.