Far right: “while we’re at it we’re going to cut taxes for the ultra rich and corporations, and raise taxes on everyone else. Trickle down economics hasn’t failed as a model, it just needs 75 years to start trickling. And we’re gonna make it harder for people to vote and harder for people to trust elections because that’s our only chance of winning with a garbage platform that does nothing to benefit 90% of you.”
Average republican voter: DURR SOUNDS GOOD TO ME, JUS MAKE SUR U WAVE TH’MURKIN FLAG AND CALL THEM LIBRALS FAGS WHILE YER AT IT
I’d like to take a moment to thank the enlightened centrists in here for tripping over themselves to prove the point. Bravo.
I imagine the far left would exterminate the lot of them for their political impurity!
Wow, people aren’t actually living walking, walking, strawman characters and they’re speaking up about it. eNliGHteNeD cEnTRisT
He said, about the people making the supposed strawman a real boy 😂
You guys are still a bunch of redditors no matter how self congratulatory you are about getting away from it.
Deflect with all the baseless ad hominems you want, doesn’t make centrism any less of a shitshow 🤷
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Yeah the group that calls everyone a communist they disagree with somehow thinks they know what fascism is
I misunderstood. Sorry!
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You guys are still a bunch of redditors no matter how self congratulatory you are about getting away from it.
The most redditor thing ever is to hate redditors. So congrats?
You guys are still a bunch of redditors
I also dislike that site but c’mon y’all sound like Kenny stepped on your shoelaces in the playground with that shit lol
The fucking irony, lol. This going beyond the pot calling the kettle back.
lol thank you for your service.
You come off as a moron here
Dude, what’s the point? Do you think you can convince a disingenuous memer that the far left isn’t the social democrats? He’s already painted you as the soyjack so he has won. The pigeon’s knocked over the pieces and shit on the board, you can’t checkmate that. It’s like arguing with a teenager on Discord, you can’t beat their collection of 17 second videos designed to make it look like you’re dumb without actually saying why.
In fairness, the meme doesn’t work all that well in Europe. The “far left” statement is defines centre-left parties here; far left is usually about enforced wealth and income sharing, even if it means imprisoning or mass killings. See Marxist collectivisation efforts, for example.
I wrote a whole 3 paragraph reply to this, but it crashed and now I’m too lazy to write it again.
But yes, this. “Everyone getting UBI and universal healthcare” is not far left. Far left is firebombing pharmaceutical companies or forceable seizure of private property to distribute amongst others, or enforced working arrangements to bring about equality.
What most Americans on Lemmy call “far left”, I’d call “basic respect for your fellow man and the compassion to put others before yourself”.
We have an Overton window problem here
Yeah the furthest left American politician that has any sort of following is Bernie Sanders. And his basic ideas are let’s tax billionaires and give people healthcare. Not exactly revolutionary stuff.
it is in murica lol
Which is why it’s so crazy that people in America try the enlightened centrist thing. Our far left is center in many other countries.
Can we stop with the “many other countries” thing and just say Western Europe? We all know you’re not referring to India.
you mean excluded literal autocratic dictatorships?
that seems implied
For that matter, even “Western Europe” covers a lot. This argument tends to rest on the overall better social safety net policies of those countries. When it comes to gay marriage, trans rights, abortion, or even racism, many of those western European countries don’t survive the comparison looking quite so rosy.
Yes, so a reasonable centrist comes off as a little more left than right - but the failure of the Republican party to retain it’s moral center doesn’t make the left correct or sane in its thinking.
The key thing is getting out of party mentalities, and getting into well-reasoned positions by identifying and facing your own (personal) fears.
Emotions scale up into collective action - you get a bunch of angry, hateful republicans who haven’t dealt with their losses of power and moral authority well, and the whole organization becomes angry and hateful.
You get a bunch of idealistic, unrealistic thinkers who can’t help but see themselves as victims, yet can’t help but ride the Hate Train when anyone does something that dares to look like it’s something bad, or foes against current virtue signaling trends? …well, that organization also becomes avoidant, irrational, and hateful in its own way. It’s just, with all the avoidance, it doesn’t have to deny the hate - the people involved genuinely believe they’re “the his guys”.
Deal primarily with your oen issues, and utilize whatever power you personally have for the best good you can see. That makes me centrist.
Your “far left” are centre-right conservatives by civilized standards.
Tis the bane of my existence that people in the America’s tar socialism and communism with the same brush ignoring their own history of market socialist policy creating long periods of stability. That McCarthism is one hell of a drug and they overdosing.
There are plenty of far left people on here, if violent rhetoric is a key indicator. E.g., run into more than a handful of people that clearly assume most white people are white devils that genocide people of color in their spare time and that need to die, who also use the language of social leftism when they’re not spewing hate.
Besides the Overton Window shifting to the right in the US, another problem is defining what is “left”. Does left mean open borders, or does it mean not using migrants as political pawns? Does left mean enforcing secularism in the public sphere, or does it mean bending over backwards with tolerance toward exclusivist minority religious groups who would not return the favor if they gained power? (Does it mean I have to learn how to uptalk and entirely repress myself to the point where I don’t even know what “me” is anymore and only a select few can take me seriously?)
People who push UBI dont understand how economy and incentives work. Here in our EU country, we have universal healthcare and there is also some sort of UBI for a period of time if you were working previously, but lost your job or something. And its definitely not the saving grace people from US picturing it to be…
The public healtcare here is in rumbles and pre-colapse, you either wait for some essential treatments up to a week or you will pay up and go to a private ambulance anyway… The treatment you get are also basically on the bare necessary level. Most hospitals are buildings from soviet era, with minimal up-keeping and modernization… Many of those workers who work in state hospitals are under payed and overworked, so many of the younger ones just get up and go somewhere abroad where they are payed better for the same job. We have the most doctors post retirement age (65) still working (probably oldest average age in the whole world), due to qualified workers shortage, as they mostly leave. And thats the not so nice real picture, of what many of you from US want to implement.
Sure, first it will be nice and great to have free health care, but basically in every country they have it, the service quality slowly getting worse over the decades, as there is no incentive to modernize those hospitals that much, when its free after all, and you pay for it anyway, only that you pay for it with your taxes, so even the option to vote/choose with your wallet is removed from you…
UBI for a period of time is not UBI, it is unemployment insurance.
and having been in Germany/America (privileged, I know) a week? there are Americans waiting MONTHS for essential treatment, fuck Americans routinely die in the ER waiting room. or if they don’t have insurance, in front of the parking lot!
yes, the post soviet system is genuinely better than what the Americans have right now, unless your walthy, but those people don’t have these types of issues anywhere
I’d much rather wait a week for treatment than the… Currently zero treatment I’m getting right now in the US because I can’t afford medical debt and the safety net systems in place repeatedly refuse to help with it.
Dont you pay a health insurance in US ? Because here you pay it and its mandatory - you basically pay it together with income tax, social insurance and health insurance - all directly deduced from your monthly paycheck… So its not like free free healthcare…
Here in America, you pay for insurance so that instead of going bankrupt when you have a baby or break your leg or have a heart attack, you only pay thousands of dollars.
Going to the doctor when sick still costs $500. You get “free” yearly check-ups with our healthcare… Sometimes.
Your healthcare is a lot cheaper compared to that. Ours is cheaper as long as you never get it and never need it.
I am a Canadian with a lot of American friends. I cannot believe how much they spend on healthcare. Here’s some of the major issues I’ve spotted.
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Their insurance payments are still higher than what is deducted from my paycheck and theirs doesn’t scale with how much they make. Like it’s insane the cost of what is being paid for healthcare. It’s not a “tax” but it’s still money you need to pay for a service that opting out of entirely will mean likely dying by something preventable. When I have been jobless or making so little money as to just scrape by my medical payments have dropped to zero. Theirs has just caused them to take risks by dropping it or forcing them more quickly into debt. Theirs is based out of something closer how many family members need coverage and how personally safe they want to be meaning there are less safe but cheaper options.
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There are gaps where private insurance doesn’t cover. You get taken accidentally to the wrong hospital in an ambulance you are immediately paying more for “out of network hospitals”
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Insurance just covers a deductible, not all services have the same deductible so you can end up very poor for having the wrong kind of health issue. The only thing I have ever paid for in a situation is $100 for a cast. That is what an uninsured person in the US practically pays for an aspirin.
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Their healthcare plans are often provided by their work meaning leaving their current jobs often mean putting themselves in financial or physical danger if they want to quit. This makes them more personally exploitable to business as a whole.
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Medical coverage is approved or denied by insurance adjusters. These people are NOT doctors and are constantly under pressure to deny anything that isn’t highly defensible in a courtroom. This means you essentially have random people informing your available healthcare options which is basically practicing medicine without a licence.
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Their hospitals are not faster where it counts. You still get placed in queue for life threatening issues at about the same rate. Emergency rooms, oncology and all the specialists take about the same time. The one place where it’s better for timeframes are joint surgeries and elective surgeries.
If you are personally unhappy with the state of your health care then fight to make the funding of it more of a thing and be prepared to chip in. Of course it isn’t free. It’s not a charity where doctors are just doing side gigs to help out and medical equipment is donated. Everyone gets bent out of shape that “I don’t have a choice it’s taxed!” but look over the fence and you’ll realize how fairly our system is priced and run based on that lack of choice. Like I will never feel as unsafe here as a citizen as my American friends. I literally worry about them so much whenever they are unemployed, travelling to a new city or in the midst of divorces, job transfers or any period of financial instability because it’s a sword of Damocles. We need to reinvigorate a pride in doing one’s civic duty to pitch in and make things better across the board rather than just “got mine, fuck you.” Creating a public good does have cost but you are unprepared for what a private system will charge for the same thing but less safe.
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But what are you trying to say at the end? I dont think the US doesn’t do any better either, what could be better than both of them?
Not sure what system we need, but a state owned universal healthcare system is definitely not it either…
Question though. Do you know about the budget of your country? Do you know if state healthcare consistently loses funding over time? Or does your country continue to invest in state healthcare and ensure it has everything it needs to function properly?
The healthcare budget for 2023 is 8.1 Billion Euros in our country, from that 6.8 B. are going directly on treating patients, according to our state site.
. . . wait for some essential treatments up to a week . . .
Clearly, nobody in the US healthcare system has waited for an important appointment for several months. Nope, doesn’t happen.
Our system sucks ass even when you can pay for it.
there is no incentive to modernize those hospitals that much, when its free after all, and you pay for it anyway
While that may be true to some extent, our “third-world country” healthcare is great once you get through the door. We have competent doctors (some of whom I personally know) who got a great education from our public universities. We also occasionally get modern equipment like the new state-of-the-art sample processing robotics lab that’s the size of an apartment. And while one of my relatives has been waiting on an affordable CT scan for some time, it’s only because they’re literally constructing the building. The system may be limping along, but it’s honestly not that bad.
When I saw any self-described leftist call for that level of violence, my gut instinct was that they’re a right wing neo-Nazi type trying to make leftists look bad.
I’m starting to really dislike the “left vs right” paradigm, because it’s so not enough to describe the variety of positions people hold, and it tends to lead into “us vs them” ways of thinking that are characteristic of fascism anyway.
About which centre-left parties in which countries are you thinking?
Here in Ireland, the Social Democrats. I’d throw Sinn Féin into the same category, but they are more populists than a genuine centre left party. SocDems in other countries in general tend to be the centre-left party that fits the “we want to provide for everyone’s basic needs” definition.
Sinn fein for me was always way more left than center.
I agree that social democrats or socialist democrats would fit in the definution given here. However for me in Germany our socialist democratic party went really neoliveral 20 years ago and strayed away from these goals. Now it is a fat left position.
Example: the current chancelor does too little to help with one the basic human needs there is: housing. So at least here centre-left is not trying to reach that.
So the difference between center left and far left is the approach, not the goal?
I’m no political scientist, but I think you are somewhat correct there. The end goal seems to be the old phrase, “from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.” The approach differs, though: cenrte-left is focusing on the later part of the sentence, so each according to his needs. Far-left focuses on the first part, from each according to his ability.
In practice, this translated to “We’ll force to work your arse off, and we’ll make it illegal for you to keep any merit-based reward for your labour” in the former Eastern Bloc countries. I’m familiar with this, as I grew up in one of those countries. It was illegal to be unemployed, and if you were skilled in any way, you could bet that you’d work long hours for miserable pay, because you’ve had the “ability”.
boTh sIdEs aRe tHe SaMe!!!
Nah, they see the difference. They just view both as equally bad
Edit: To clarify, I am not defending them. I don’t think both sides are equally bad, I’m saying that’s what centrists see.
Because smugly choosing the midpoint between a brutal fascist autocracy and greater worker enfranchisement and equity makes more sense than just picking the good option.
They just view both as equally bad
They’re objectively wrong according to just about any metric you might care to examine.
But shareholder profits! Wont anyone think of the poor shareholders?
sharpens metaphoric guillotine made out of taxation and nationalization
I do, every day.
Exactly. This is why the Centrist camp bootlicks the Fascists every day.
Far left (hexbear): nuke all the western whites
Everyone else: that’s fash lol
Far left (hexbear): that’s literally transphobic meltdown
What is hexbear? I see it referenced here a lot.
From what I gleaned lazily back then, they were a bunch of tankies ruining it for everyone so they were defederated (?)
Edit- “tankies” meaning "far far far left…keep going…a little bit more…oh, dammit you found some soviet tanks didnt you?)
Yeah that’s exactly what they’re saying, it’s not just you wanting to make your point easier to make
What is my point?
Nuclear genocide based on color and location is pretty fascist. Care to refute?
You’re intentionally missing my point…
Yup, that must be it.
This kind of “I’m ready to get all offended and have an argument at the drop of a hat” is the exact same kind of cringe as hexbear
You sound like you argue in good faith
tankies are fascist tho.
In YeetPics’s defense, I’ve yet to meet a Hexbear user who does 🤷♂️
You sound like you make sarcastic comments about people arguing in good faith
Aren’t hexbear actual far right trolls roleplaying as what they believe leftists to be like, though…?
The magic is you can’t tell the difference between honest tankies and lying fascists.
This is just cringe strawman bullshit mixed eith your wierd hate bones for hexbear
Did you just shame my boner for being rock hard?
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Idk mate, you’d have to ask a hexbear.
Far left: save people, kill companies
Far right: save companies, kill people
Centrist: someone kill people, someone kill companies
“Wow, both sides are killers.”
“Left wing extremist; right wing extremist - I see no difference.”, “For sure there is one”, says the kangaroo, “left extremists burn cars, right extremists burn foreigners. And this makes the left extremists worse, because the car could belong to me. Foreigners, on the other hand, I don’t own any”
German comedian Marc Uwe Kling in “the Kangaroo Chronicles”
Something something Overton doorframe or something like that
The broken Overton window fallacy, I believe it’s called.
Was it the Scotsman or Godwin that broke it?
Simpsons NPCs cheering
I’m a centrist who hates extremists on both sides. I’m also not a transphobe like this comic would lead you to believe.
I usually end up voting democrat because the republicans are more extremist, but democrats definitely aren’t solely about getting everyone’s needs met. I’ve seen democrats want to smash unions, leverage insider trading solely for their own benefit, and introduce draconian drug laws.
This bad tweet creates a straw man out of every group. It’s a great example of why everyone should look at issues individually and not play politics like it’s some stupid sports game where your team is always right and the other team is always wrong. This style of thinking is why Republicans vote down every Democratic idea simply because “they’re on the other team”. It’s a really low IQ take.
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I have no idea how you came to this ridiculous conclusion.
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To be fair to the other commenter, the people who you had interactions with are actually Bona Fide, Shonuff Nazis. They claim to be “centrists” to avoid being ostracized by decent people.
I’m a bisexual centrist who’s been romantically involved with trans people, does that mean me too?
Kind of like how Republicans who aren’t filthy rich like to claim they’re “Libertarians.” No, you just don’t like be called an asshole for being an asshole. You ain’t fooling anybody.
That’s… …kinda cringey.
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It’s not always hate, sometimes it’s fear too!
You’re seriously going to paint every single centrist with the “transphobe” brush?
I think you’ll find that most centrists are broadly in support of trans people and that if they have any objections at all, they’ll be a few minor snagging points like mtf people in women’s sports, women’s toilets/changing rooms and the idea of making irreversible changes to the body of a child.
People like you are self defeating, sometimes it seems that you’re desperate to be a victim. You make mountains out of molehills and create divisions where there are none, but worst of all, you actively alienate people who are potentially your allies.
Edit: down votes away, until I see someone brave enough to make a counter point, I’ll just assume that the truth hurts. It’s much easier to say that you don’t like someone’s opinion than to explain why
“Broadly in support of trans people” but also forcing us to use changing rooms and toilets that also often put us in danger and lead many of us to be able to spend less time in public because the minute we need to pee someone is very likely going to yell at us, smack us (usually women) or stalk us to a secondary location (usually men) because people feel empowered to treat us all like perverts and make our safety based decisions of what the path of least resistance a question a matter of technicality…
What the heck does “broadly support” mean in this context? Ambivalence to one’s existence, quality of life issues and safety because one doesn’t want to bother isn’t support.
I don’t doubt that transphobia is real and prevalent. What I’m saying is that the claim that an extremely large and diverse demographic as strongly prejudiced against trans people isn’t only false, but entirely unhelpful to the goal of equality that trans people and their allies are fighting for.
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I didn’t say that it’s a view that every centrist holds or even claim that they’re more common than not, nor did I say that they’re view points exclusive to centrists.
Your comment is typical of someone that has already chosen their conclusion and will only consider evidence that supports it.
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Maybe I got you wrong. Because I think we’re at the crux of the issue now.
Imagine you were broadly in support of trans people and full equality, but had some hesitations about the issues mentioned prior. Then a trans person or more usually a trans ally shouts “transphobe!!!”, instead of trying to educate or debate in good faith.
Such a person might now think, “well a trans person says I’m a transphobe, I thought I wasn’t but they probably know best”, they may feel dejected and a potential ally has been turned into a person that at best won’t touch the subject with a barge pole and at worst a legit transphobe.
I also feel it’s quite important to state that the term transphobe implies a strong prejudice, I don’t think a few minor sticking points implies a strong prejudice or even a minor prejudice. It can be as simple as a misunderstanding.
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And the others that dont are eggs i.e. are trans people in secret but just dont know it yet aye?
This is why we cant have nice things.
Its reverse gatekeeping.
Now being serious, i know that a lot of trans people are not into this type of persecution rethoric, and i understeand why they should be protected from violence because they are a group that suffers a lot of violence.
But this type of rethoric is just asking for negative reactions from people at the very least, and theres a lot of people both trans and not trans that are on board with the reverse gatekeeping and makes the whole thing harder to defend.
This is a retarded take
2003 called, they want their slur back
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If you use the word “idiot” you’ve done the same thing.
Ooh, and “demented”
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I don’t hate trans people. No one with a penis is going to use the same bathroom or changing room as my daughter.
It’s not a discussion.
Despite otherwise treating trans people with respect and dignity, that’s one of my only views that conflicts with the hard left…therefore I’m a demon terf that hates trans people.
I shrug…I’m not voting R, but it makes it hard as hell to vote D.
So you’d rather a 6ft muscular Transmasc with a beard and killer pecs use it because they got a pussy? Great priorities there
Also does this imply you’re okay with post-op trans women using the same changing room?
What about post-op trans men?
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Oh I know, this is far from my first rodeo. I just think it’s important to for others who may be on the fence see that they fall apart. You don’t debate for the person you’re talking to, if they care enough to comment they’re probably past the point of convincing, you debate for the people who are reading and may be unsure of their feelings.
Post op implies a commitment and medical intervention. That does change my views.
So you’d rather a 6ft muscular Transmasc with a beard and killer pecs use it because they got a pussy?
I don’t understand any of that.
Post op implies a commitment and medical intervention. That does change my views.
You know what else implies a commitment and medical intervention? The hormones that are currently growing my breast in my 20s.
I don’t understand any of that
Let me break it down for you
6ft tall
Measurement of height
muscular
A person with big muscles
Transmasc
Someone assigned female at birth taking masculizing hormones
a beard
Facial hair
killer pecs
Really big pectoral muscles (not the lumps of adipose tissue known as breast)
a pussy
Something your mom showed me last night
You don’t even know what trans guys are but you think trans people are somehow dangerous ie not letting trans women use the women’s restroom?
not letting trans women use the women’s restroom?
While my daughter is in there? Yes…you’re correct. Clearly that means I’m the most vile fucked up evil bastard on the planet.
I agree you are vile because we are not dangerous or subhuman. Also trust me you don’t want trans guys like me using the women’s restroom because I’ll clog all the toilets with my shits. Hell I’ll even prep by going to Chipotle first
You’re saying that, because you have decided that trans people are sexual predators, because you tell yourself stories where trans women are men who rape children, we should put ourselves in the legitimate danger of being a women in a men’s bathroom. The last time I was in a men’s room, a teenage boy turned around at the door because he was so sure he was in the wrong place. That was five years ago. If you had a son, you wouldn’t be comfortable with me using the same bathroom as him. If you had two children of different genders, you would be uncomfortable with me using any bathroom. Because I am clearly a woman, but you have also decided that I am a man who will hurt your daughter. Stop playing stupid games and say you don’t want trans people in public.
I’m pretty sure you’re projecting all that at this point.
Asking you to wait to use the restroom isn’t implying any of that. It’s simply decorum that has been decided upon by society. If it’s that important to you to disregard that, it does indeed call into question your judgement on more sensitive matters.
I don’t hate trans people. No one with a penis is going to use the same bathroom or changing room as my daughter.
Laws forcing trans people to use the bathroom of their born gender will force transmen to use a woman’s room, effectively forcing people with a penis to use the same bathroom as your daughter.
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You really pay attention to other people’s genitals in the bathroom? Maybe you are the one who shouldn’t be allowed in public bathrooms. I feel uncomfortable sharing the bathroom with someone who is obssessed with genitals as you are.
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And the true colors are out. You hate trans people. Shut the fuck up. Die in a car fire.
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Since the gif doesn’t work: “why would I hate someone weaker than myself? I only pity them”
Well fascists love that dichotmy: The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak."
They make the enemy seem strong so they can rally support to fight (see: genocide) them. And they make them out as weak so they can be held in contempt and shown that the fascists are truly the strongest and deserve to rule. This contradiction is not analyzed by those supporting it. And is similar to “Doublethink” from 1984.
We are talking about two different groups here my friend. But I guess calling someone nazi or fascist is just easier than actually using the brain.
Far right = faschist.
Nazi is just a flavor of faschist, kinda like how all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.
Bam!
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That stance isn’t really the ‘far’ left, the ‘far’ left doesn’t even have have a significant voice in US politics currently.
That is absolutely not what the far left wants, the US is just that far right that reasonable outcomes are considered far left.
Russian agitprop designed to separate us and cause us to fight.
Don’t fall for it.
Here’s a fun fact, a large part of the far right movement in the world is due to years and years of unchecked Russian propaganda coupled with the modern social media platforms, in fact Russia has embraced this to the fullest and is running propaganda in Africa/Latin America and assisting human traffickers in an attempt to generate MORE refugees.
just look at some of the trends, the American southern border has more people than ever trying to get across in boarder cities, and the amount of refugees crossing the Mediterranean has jumped by over 200% in recent months.
Now, there is plenty to criticize in the handling of the refugees by the EU and the US.
But it doesn’t change the fact that Russia is activly doing this in an attempt to assist the far-right pushes in the western world.
Nope this is 100% centrist thinking. You can see me arguing with these morons.
You’ve been baited. Put your energy into something that will produce results.
That’s not centrists
Im starting to think it was a mistake comming to lemmy thinking there was gonna be a decent discucion, the tankies where probably a sign of it i guess, theres no way most of them arent edgy tenagers or ccp shills, the same goes for you guys that defend political parties (diference being democrat and republican shills). They dont have your best interests in mind and whant you figthing over their bs culture wars so that you dont pay attention to the real corrupt shit that benefits no one but themselves and their rich friends.
And no, there isnt a middle point between genocide and not genocide and you know that that isnt what is being argued by people that disagree with you (at least not in good faith admidetly). This feels more like lashing out against anyone that disagrees with your viewpoints, no matter if they are the other team or not even playing in any of them, or maybe its an attempt to group anyone that disagrees with some of your viewpoints (or at least those that are percieved as absolute truth by the “left” that other people question in good faith) into the other team that you dont like so that you justify lashing out aginst them.
I dont like that, username checks out.
Litterary the same thing
Far left also fond of purges.
