• Julian@lemm.eeEnglish
    2805·
    1 year ago

    If only people could understand the basic concept that hating a government is possible without hating the people living there.

    • gedaliyah@lemmy.world
      13630·
      1 year ago

      Exactly. Hamas is a monstrous organization based on the most corrupted religious fundamentalism, but I have nothing but love for the people of Gaza.

        • Syndic@feddit.de
          412·
          1 year ago

          First of all I really wouldn’t put much weight on the voting results in an area where Hamas uses violence for decades to keep in power. Especially if there isn’t any semblance of a modern democratic state such as regular(!!) elections, freedom of speech and a free press. A 1-2 generation long youth indoctrination like the Nazis did also really doesn’t create an educated and politically mature population.

          And of course 53% still leaves a huge amount of people who aren’t in favour. Not to mention that there is a 70+ year long ongoing conflict which has left pretty much no one in Gaza (or Israel for that matter) who doesn’t know someone getting hurt or killed by the opposing side’s actions. It’s hardly surprising that there’s hard feeling (major understatement) in a lot of people.

          And lastly we certainly wouldn’t want to use public opinion as justification for killing civilians. That’s the reasoning the likes of Osama bin Laden do to justify shit like 9/11.

          TL;DR: This conflict is complicated as hell and basically a self fueling cycle of hatred where even the good side is acting very shitty a lot of times.

          • fosho@lemmy.caEnglish
            71·
            1 year ago

            whatever do you mean by “the good side”? there is no good side.

          • davepleasebehave@lemmy.world
            109·
            1 year ago

            maybe it’s not complicated. All groups who fight oppressors have been labelled as violent extremists. so perhaps it’s actually quite simple.

            • Syndic@feddit.de
              74·
              1 year ago

              This conflict is anything but simple. Nearly a century of bloody violence by both sides seldom makes for a clear good vs evil conflict. The fact that Hamas still is the worse autocratic despotic ruler when compared to the hardliner wanna be authoritarians of Netanyahu’s party proves that. Fighting back against oppression doesn’t absolve you from the human duty of compassion and when you indiscriminately kill civilians your fight isn’t justice anymore but just another crime against humanity!

              Maybe back when the Zionist militants/terrorist first started to wage their war to get their own country one could have pointed at one side as the good one. But since then both sides have committed countless atrocities. The only thing for sure is that neither kids deserve to grow up in such an environment and to be raised to continue the fight for another generation.

              • Franzia@lemmy.blahaj.zone
                105·
                1 year ago

                Seems like the Palestinians want the right to return to their homes and communities and Israel just can’t find a way to give a damn.

      • sparky_gnome@lemmy.world
        112·
        1 year ago

        Yes, exactly. It’s worth noting though, that many good people are brought into these regimes, and are folded into the hate by their leaders, and the hate they receive from the extremists that oppose them. Not only do terrorists and gangs harm those they seek to harm, but they also grow and root their evil into the normal and healthy communities they base themselves in. Both Hamas and Israel are poisoning their own people more than those they directly kill.

        • oatscoop@midwest.socialEnglish
          153·
          1 year ago

          I know, right? Don’t they know reality is a zero sum game?

          Horrific acts done against a group of people cancel out the horrific acts they do. As long as the other side is “worse” you can torture, murder, and rape all you want – it’s totally justified. Especially if you indiscriminately target defensless civilian populations for your “revenge”.

            • dsemy@lemm.eeEnglish
              96·
              1 year ago

              Should US border guards shoot women and children trying to illegally cross in from Mexico?

              Those civilians who are now being killed live mostly on the border of Gaza - these aren’t settlers, they don’t live in occupied territory.

              Many others who were killed and kidnapped were kids at a rave near the border. Were the terrorists morally obliged to shoot them? Were they morally obliged to strip the women and beat them and post the videos online? Was the German tourist they did this to yesterday an invader?

              • davepleasebehave@lemmy.world
                67·
                1 year ago

                Israel has targeted health centers and large apartment blocks as reprisals. they threated to punish the whole population by switching off electricity.

                why are they even in control of the electricity?

                why are they allowing settlers to create illegal settlements?

              • fosho@lemmy.caEnglish
                38·
                1 year ago

                not sure why you conflate women and children seeking asylum as invaders. that’s embarrassing.

                • dsemy@lemm.eeEnglish
                  91·
                  1 year ago

                  Can you only think in terms of groups? Believe it or not, I did not join lemm.ee because of my politics or whatever, I just like the name.

                  Interesting that your first response to an opinion you don’t agree with is a call for defederation. Ignoring the opinions and ideas of people you disagree with puts you in an echo chamber.

        • DarthBueller@lemmy.world
          1·
          1 year ago

          I didn’t realize “doing nothing but brutalizing Palestinians” includes providing power and water to the gaza strip because the Palestinian leadership was too corrupt build power and water treatment plants with the numerous millions of dollars of international and Israeli aid earmarked for that purpose.

          • Skates@feddit.nl
            31·
            1 year ago

            My dude, Palestine has been attacked by terrorists and forced to split its country in two. It’s irellevant if the terrorists then went “here, have some money you poor fucks”. They still stole the land and homes of the people living there. They still are responsible for a mass exodus, and the destruction of a nation. They still killed millions to keep that land theirs.

            Don’t get it twisted. Their humanitarian efforts are not because they’re good people. They’re just so they can keep feigning legitimacy and moral superiority.

            But it seems the ship has sailed and everyone’s collective mind doesn’t go back before the 1990s, so I guess fuck Palestine, what a mean thing to do, how dare you bomb the terrorists that reside in your homes civilians.

            • DarthBueller@lemmy.world
              1·
              1 year ago

              They didn’t kill millions, my dude, in any point in time. And Palestinian nationalism literally developed as a response to Zionism. Pan Arabism was very much the order of the day until the 48 war. Do you not understand how the fellahin had their land sold out from under them by the landed Arab gentry living in Beirut? There’s plenty of blame to go around, but feel free to pretend that the Jews are the only reason the Palestinians are in the position they are today.

            • davepleasebehave@lemmy.world
              34·
              1 year ago

              my comment was meant to be sarcastic. it’s easy for the oppressors to wonder why the oppressed won’t just roll over and take the boot.

            • Redditiscancer789@lemmy.worldEnglish
              13·
              1 year ago

              Yes soooooo peaceful to elect a government who’s founding charter calls for the killing of every single Jew in Israel and out of it. Oh my God I can’t get over how peaceful it is. Those poor Palestinians not being able to genocide Israel goly gee willikers.

        • Fedizen@lemmy.world
          14·
          1 year ago

          Ukrainians have killed civilians but I don’t think they generally target civilians in the way Hamas does. We should absolutely be arming palestinian moderates to prevent incursions and settlements like we are in Ukraine, though.

    • decended_being@midwest.social
      666·
      1 year ago

      Yes, but also that hating a government (or even just decisions of a government) doesn’t extend to hating people across the globe who identify with the same religion that government is using to oppress people.

      (American Jew who hates what Israel is doing)

        • decended_being@midwest.social
          51·
          1 year ago

          I think that’s a question that every Jewish person would have a different answer to. For me, I’m an Atheist Jew; but religion is more than blind faith, it contains culture, values, and yes peoplehood. I like being part of a small and tight community, sharing ethical discussions and rituals with those in it.

          Like most similar questions, yours comes down to semantics. How do you define religion? A people? My concern with questions like that is it can be interpreted by some maliciously. E.g. They’re not a religion like us, they’re a race and we must exterminate them.

    • waz@lemmy.world
      23·
      1 year ago

      One of my favorite quotes:

      If I have one message to give to the secular American people, it’s that the world is not divided into countries. The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don’t know each other, but we talk together and we understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.  - Marjane Satrapi

      Different situation, same idea.

      • eatham 🇭🇲@aussie.zoneEnglish
        01·
        1 year ago

        1. Democracy and genocide are separate

        2. Israel is by definition obviously not committing genocide, the Palestinians population is only going up

      • uis@lemmy.world
        21·
        1 year ago

        Original comment has 3 downvotes, mine 9. “It’s different” it seems.

  • SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca
    19219·
    1 year ago

    A reminder:

    Palestinians are awesome!

    The genocidal regime that rules over Gaza who murder innocent people while blocking Palestinian democracy is NOT AWESOME!

    • DoomBot5@lemmy.worldEnglish
      4211·
      1 year ago

      What about all the Palestinians internationally that are currently celebrating that massacre?

      • SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca
        343·
        1 year ago

        Yeah those guys are on the side of the genocidal regime.

        Palestinian fascism… Hamas won the election with just a plurality of the vote then permanently suspended elections ever since. Same old story. Odd how it’s never talked about. I suppose Palestinian fascism complicates support for Palestine for the left so they pretend it isn’t a thing, while it also complicates the “them people are all terrorists” narrative ofr the right.

        It’s hard to determine the popularity of Hamas now (there has been an election in over a decade and a half) in the Palestinian population. There is obviously support of the genocidal maniacs in the Palestinian populace because of those celebrations. The people that support Hamas have either been duped by their propaganda or are just straight up evil, or both.

      • Rengoku@lemm.ee
        161·
        1 year ago

        Islamists too. Here in my country they are chanting death to Israel all over social media.

      • Nakedmole@lemmy.world
        72·
        1 year ago

        Obviously not awesome but easy to explain. I assume that being Palestinian gives them a certain - very one sided perspective on the conflict because they probably perceive Israel as an evil colonialist terror State that has been oppressing and killing them for decades.

      • Shyfer@ttrpg.network
        1018·
        1 year ago

        Probably the same as all the Jewish and Christian people internationally that celebrate and monetarily and militarily support the Israeli apartheid regime even as they would kill innocents, cut off water and supplies, and kill journalists. ESH.

        • BubblyMango@lemmy.wtf
          104·
          1 year ago

          Palestinian citizens are given supplies by the IDF. I always found accusations of cutting supplies to citizens very uninformed.

          • DarthBueller@lemmy.world
            82·
            1 year ago

            People also conveniently ignore that the Palestinians have been getting Israeli and international aid for decades that was supposed to go into building infrastructure like power plants and water treatment facilities. Instead the money went straight into the pockets of the Fatah/PLO and Israel up to this very day has been supplying power and water to Gaza and West Bank. The Palestinian leadership was corrupt as fuck.

            • mycorrhiza they/them@lemmy.ml
              32·
              1 year ago

              https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/

              In November 1967 the Israeli authorities issued Military Order 158, which stated that Palestinians could not construct any new water installation without first obtaining a permit from the Israeli army. Since then, the extraction of water from any new source or the development of any new water infrastructure would require permits from Israel, which are near impossible to obtain. Palestinians living under Israel’s military occupation continue to suffer the devastating consequences of this order until today. They are unable to drill new water wells, install pumps or deepen existing wells, in addition to being denied access to the Jordan River and fresh water springs. Israel even controls the collection of rain water throughout most of the West Bank, and rainwater harvesting cisterns owned by Palestinian communities are often destroyed by the Israeli army. As a result, some 180 Palestinian communities in rural areas in the occupied West Bank have no access to running water, according to OCHA. Even in towns and villages which are connected to the water network, the taps often run dry.

              […]

              In Gaza, some 90-95 per cent of the water supply is contaminated and unfit for human consumption. Israel does not allow water to be transferred from the West Bank to Gaza, and Gaza’s only fresh water resource, the Coastal Aquifer, is insufficient for the needs of the population and is being increasingly depleted by over-extraction and contaminated by sewage and seawater infiltration.

              The resulting disparity in access to water between Israelis and Palestinians is truly staggering. Water consumption by Israelis is at least four times that of Palestinians living in the OPT. Palestinians consume on average 73 litres of water a day per person, which is well below the World Health Organization’s (WHO) recommended daily minimum of 100 litres per capita. In many herding communities in the West Bank, the water consumption for thousands of Palestinians is as low as 20 litres per person a day, according to the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA). By contrast, an average Israeli consumes approximately 300 litres of water a day.

  • JokeDeity@lemm.ee
    1122·
    1 year ago

    I agree in general, but what an image choice for the Jewish people. Hassidics are far far less awesome and far far more right wing themselves.

  • Seraph@kbin.social
    9932·
    1 year ago

    In my opinion this is an “everyone sucks here” situation and no one knows how to approach it as a result.

    Maybe stop killing each other and take it from there? No? More rockets and human rights abuse? Yeah that’ll work…

        • ChouxFleur@lemmy.world
          5·
          1 year ago

          Are they the root, or are they a justification? Seems like a pretty reductive take, to be honest.

          Wars have been occurring for a long time, and generally a desire for resources (including control over people) is a leading cause. Religion is an easy thing to use to get people to lay their lives on the line for you if they already have that belief. Equally it’s an easy scapegoat for anti-religious people to blame wars on as well.

          This conflict isn’t just about religion. If it was then Israel’s neighbours probably would have got involved as well.

    • Square Singer@feddit.de
      187·
      1 year ago

      Interesting take after about a century of World Wars, Cold War and other global conflicts that where mostly not about religion at all.

    • credit crazy@lemmy.world
      77·
      1 year ago

      Not really like I have seen religion actually work in making a society kind and in many places religion is the culture so without it those cultures would simply dissolve honestly I say religion is kinda like guns it can be used for good things and they both can be corrupted by bad people and used for bad things at the end of the day there are some shit people out there that want nothing but power and they see religions as a way to control people

      • Auli@lemmy.caEnglish
        145·
        1 year ago

        Religion is stupid and causes way to many issues. And religion has always been a way to control people it’s literally why it was invented.

    • zerotime@feddit.de
      722·
      1 year ago

      I don’t think so. The religions are an easy way to legitimate wars but they are not the first reason for them. (And look at Buddhism. They found a way to a healthy lifestyle. ~Fake News. I didn’t know what happend in Myanmar and Burma for example.)

      • Syndic@feddit.de
        23·
        1 year ago

        And look at Buddhism. They found a way to a healthy lifestyle.

        Unfortunately even Buddhist aren’t perfect. Just look what’s going on in Burma/Myanmar.

        But regardless it’s correct that Religion often is used as a tool for parties to gain and exercise political power.

        • davepleasebehave@lemmy.world
          41·
          1 year ago

          it’s a good way to create division. especially between two people who have more socio economically in common then they do with the ruling elites.

          • Syndic@feddit.de
            3·
            1 year ago

            No worries, it’s a something I think a lot of people don’t know so it’s good to talk about.

      • Killing_Spark@feddit.de
        61·
        1 year ago

        In this case it literally is the cause. Israel was founded on this land because of the religious ties to this exact place.

          • Cyborganism@lemmy.ca
            21·
            1 year ago

            That’s okay. I thought the same thing before. That Buddhism was the least of the worst because of their anti violence stance. But it turns out religion is religion.

      • CerealKiller01@lemmy.world
        14·
        1 year ago

        Judaism has two meanings - religious and ethnic. (Nearly) all religious Jews belong to the Jewish ethnicity, but not all ethnic Jews are religious. In Israel, the best indicator if someone supports the occupation in the Palestinian territories is religion. What you call Zionism (“the settler colonialist apartheid”) is mainly a religious movement. That’s not to say religious Jews = bad. But a huge part of the problem is religious.

        • Iceblade@lemmy.world
          61·
          1 year ago

          In fact, Jews are the least religious ethnic group worldwide. Something like 70% are atheist or agnostic iirc

  • schnaggle@lemmy.world
    9040·
    1 year ago

    Calling the Israel govt “genocidal” is not fair or accurate. Israel has had military superiority over Gaza every day since it was captured in 1967. If they were genocidal, they could’ve slaughtered all the people in Gaza at any time. Instead, the population of Gaza has doubled since 1967. If you want to know what a real genocidal regime looks like, imagine the situation were reversed and Hamas had overwhelming military superiority over Israel. Imagine Hamas had tanks, F-16s, F-35s, and Apache helicopters. What would happen? The genocide would start immediately. Hamas would be slaughtering civilians en masse. No restraint. No negotiations. True Genocide.

    Before you ask, I’m not Jewish and I’m not defending Israeli atrocities. I just think this is an extremely simplistic and unfair characterization of Israel.

  • Number1SummerJam@lemmy.world
    381·
    1 year ago

    I wish all Jewish people of the world a happy and safe day of rest for Shemini Atzeret; peace and safety for anyone living in the Gaza region.

  • spirinolas@lemmy.world
    6428·
    1 year ago

    Am I the only one suspicious about the timing of this attack? Right on the time Netanyahu is under extreme pressure at home a major war comes out of his ass.

    Can’t help but notice everybody loses with this war, except him. He’s the only one that takes advantage of this situation. Not Israel, not Hamas and sure as hell not the Palestinians.

    There’s a stench here. Something is not right.

    • Vlhacs@reddthat.com
      23·
      1 year ago

      Is this really a win for Netanyahu though? His intelligence branch really fucked up big time. Real winner is probably any far-right groups looking for an opportunity to spout even more nationalistic bullshit, causing even more violence.

    • schnaggle@lemmy.world
      234·
      1 year ago

      People question the timing of the attack and hint at larger conspiracies EVERY TIME there’s a terrorist attack. They did it on 9/11. They did it on 7/11. They will always do this and it will always be stupid.

      I dislike Netanyahu, but it is simply insane to think Netanyahu coordinated an attack of this scale with his good buddies Hamas. Please seek help.

    • Patapon Enjoyer@lemmy.world
      131·
      1 year ago

      To be fair, Netanyahu is always under extreme pressure at home. He’s a terrible statist and a horrible person.

    • mightyfoolish@lemmy.world
      93·
      1 year ago

      Yes, they have been pressured to do this. IDF and random settlement Jews have literally been harassing Muslims praying in Jerusalem. They have been seen pushing women while praying and stepping on people at least 5 days straight.

    • DoomBot5@lemmy.worldEnglish
      41·
      1 year ago

      Also on the 50 year anniversary of another attack that happened on a Jewish holiday.

      • idiomaddict@feddit.de
        2·
        1 year ago

        I hate to say this, but sukkot is a tactically advantageous time to attack. It’s celebrated by sleeping under temporary booths with sparse natural cover. If you want to attack, waiting until the people you want to attack are no longer protected by a roof makes sense.

        • DoomBot5@lemmy.worldEnglish
          11·
          1 year ago

          Roofs only marginally help with the rockets. The bunkers in the buildings are where people go when the sirens go off. Shouldn’t be much harder to get to them from your back yard / porch.

    • supercriticalcheese@feddit.it
      41·
      1 year ago

      Maybe the plan was to keep on poking and hope for a reaction and then lunch a police action to show strength, and repeat. This is the playbook of Netanyahu after all no?

      So it makes sense he would know how to best react to this.

    • Redditiscancer789@lemmy.worldEnglish
      1·
      1 year ago

      Uhhh did you not see they’re already talking about forming a new unity government and ousting him after stabilizing the security situation? That’s hardly a win for the president running on the phrase “I’m the only one strong enough to protect you!” Something similar happened after the yom Kippur attacks 50 years ago where the current president was basically squeezed out of the government once the situation wasn’t so dire.

  • xX_fnord_Xx@lemmy.world
    4210·
    1 year ago

    I’ve been awake too long, but isn’t murdering infidels and blowing up thousands of years of culture so you can seize a land promised to you by an invisible omnipotent being that only important powerful people can talk to kind of like the Crusades?

    I could be wrong. I’m an illiterate pagan. I find religious expression hugging trees and doing a number of other activities in the nude.

  • JackbyDev@programming.devEnglish
    333·
    1 year ago

    This part of the image has me dying. The cutesy simplistic art style would fit in a kindergarten class but it’s about war crimes lmao.

  • TootSweet@lemmy.worldEnglish
    6436·
    1 year ago

    Lemmy’s flooded with anti-palestinian-occupation propaganda today.

    Please keep it up.