More than 10,000 Palestinians have been killed in the month since Hamas’ terrorist attacks inside southern Israel, the group’s health ministry in Gaza says.
But Hamas officials say the mounting death toll, believed to include thousands of children, has not caused the group to regret its actions in southern Israel, which Israeli officials said killed 1,400 people.
In fact, Hamas leaders say that their goal was to trigger this very response and that they’re still hoping for a bigger war. It’s all part of a strategy, they say, to derail talks over Israel normalizing relations with regional powers — namely, Saudi Arabia — and draw the world’s attention to the Palestinian cause.
Hamas, these officials say, is more interested in the destruction of Israel than what it sees as the temporary hardships faced by Palestinians under Israeli bombardment.
“What could change the equation was a great act, and without a doubt, it was known that the reaction to this great act would be big,” Khalil al-Hayya, a member of the group’s governing politburo, told The New York Times in an interview.
In fact, Hamas leaders say that their goal was to trigger this very response and that they’re still hoping for a bigger war. It’s all part of a strategy, they say, to derail talks over Israel normalizing relations with regional powers — namely, Saudi Arabia — and draw the world’s attention to the Palestinian cause.
“This was our plan all along!” Lol? At this rate there won’t even be a Palestine to pay attention to…
“This was our plan all along!” Lol? At this rate there won’t even be a Palestine to pay attention to…
Try and remember where things were prior to the attack. There was a legitimate movement happening where people were starting to recognize the apartheid state that Israel had set up. The conversation was materially shifting to focus on the abuses of the Israeli government. Things were happening that seemed like the whole thing could come to resolution without Hamas being involved. The terrorist attack was as much about maintaining the status quo of conflict as anything else. Hamas and Netanyahu both had their power waning as a function of the failed strategies both have been employing for decades. The attack reset the clock for both of them. It justifies Israels decades of shitty policies that have objectively compounded the situation and made it much worse, along with justifying Hamas position about this being a war for survival. Both hawk factions benefit from this, no people benefit from this.
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I never thought about it like this. I never realized that this was Hamas’ motivation. But yeah, it makes perfect sense when you look at it from this point of view.
I guess I thought that Hamas…cared(?)…more about the Palestinians, so when people would say that this is the reaction they wanted from Israel, I was confused. But yeah, okay. Thanks for that.
If it’s not a democracy, the leaders don’t have to care about what the normal people think. They will never have to risk getting voted out. All that matters is power and terror. Keeping people scared. Using violence to keep people’s heads down. Execute your enemies and allies perceived as weak. Imprison them if killing them would make them a martyr, such as Navalny.
China uses a much more refined version of this to keep people in legitimate concentration camps with forced sterilization. But they have such a grip on who gets in/out, and control so much trade, that even for people who do know of the Uyghurs can’t do anything aside from toothless statements about them. But most people don’t know. Or simply don’t care what happens in an authoritarian country half a world away.
Ideology is one hell of a drug.
They care more about the idea of destroying the state of Israel than about the liberation Palestinian people. Hamas was born out burning anger and vengeance, not a desire to rebuild. That would the PLO or PFLP.
The fact is a one state of Israel-Palestine with equal rights for all, reparations and right-of-return to displaced Palestinians, is the only real solution to end this cycle of violence once and for all.
But Hamas doesn’t want that. Neither does Bibi or the Israeli majority. Each are so filled with hatred, one side from revenge, the other from supremacy, that they can’t see a future where they live in peace with each other.
The best people who really want peace can do is support the PLO and the PFLP, imo. If they get strong enough to overtake Hamas in Gaza, that would be a very big step towards actual solutions. At least from the Palestinian side. And Israel wouldn’t have much of a leg to stand on, “self-defence” wise.
This is an excellent overview. Thank you.
When someone gives you knowledge— Listen. Thank You.
things were happening that seemed like the whole thing could come to a resolution without hamas being involved.
This is utter fantasy. There was/is a growing movement on the left in the west recognizing the abuses of the Israeli regime but that movement was very marginal and would probably remain so in the near future. The governments and ruling elites in the west still overwhelmingly supported Israel and were willing to turn a blind eye to the abuses, even as they have increased under the new far right government that came to power recently. Even the Arab countries that previously championed the Palestinian cause were defecting.
The trajectory of this conflict before Oct 7th was a slow legalistic ethnic cleansing in the west bank backed unquestioningly by the United States. A few more leftists might protest it in the U.S. but they are fundamentally impotent against the inertia of the current system as a majority of the people don’t know or care about Palestine. Doesn’t matter if a tweet calling Israel an apartheid state gets millions of likes if the U.S. Congress still votes 430 to 5 for aid to Israel every time it comes up.
The Palestinian cause needed something to keep it relevant and shake up the status quo that was slowly killing it. Oct 7th was probably one of the worst ways to do it, but at least more people know about how horrible the system is.
Palestine isn’t the point. Destroying Israel was the point. And the more this goes on, the more likely other countries (such as Saudi Arabia) are likely to step in and go after Israel. Which could result in the destruction of Israel.
That’s my understanding of what this article was about anyway.
As long as Israel has Uncle Sam parked off the coast there is no destruction of Israel happening anytime soon. The us could decimate every nation surrounding Israel and then some, probably with just the assets we have in the region alone. They know that so there won’t be any mass attack on Israel. Hamas planned to trigger Israel into a genocide and then have all of the terrorist groups/ Muslim nations launch an attack on Israel. They want a massive world war. But that’s just not happening with where global politics are at. The us is going to provide the protection for Israel to do essentially what they want. We are too chicken shit to pressure Israel into stopping this genocide so we are stuck.
I expect to see terrorist groups in all of the surrounding nations continue to try to trigger a global conflict by attacking Israel and US assets in the region, but its just unlikely to go anywhere.
So Hamas poked the hornets nest, gets nothing but thousands of their people dead. Israel is revealed to be the hard right genocidal dictatorship we have all known it to be. The US continues to sink millions into foreign wars. Round and round we go.
And the more this goes on, the more likely other countries (such as Saudi Arabia) are likely to step in and go after Israel.
No way would SA sacrifice their sweetheart deal with the US to do this. They are dependent on the US for security. This is about proxy sectarian politics between moral enemies Saudi Arabia (Sunni, ally of the US who is Israel’s pal,) and Iran (Shia, backers of Hamas and Hezbollah.)
Not to mention, SA probably isn’t stupid enough to attack with intent to destroy (relevant because a state being under credible threat to survival is the kind of scenario usually given for that state actually using weapons of mass destruction) an almost certainly nuclear armed state, especially one that is close enough by to have no time for warnings or interception, and especially when they have no equivalent weapons of their own as deterrent.
SA has already shelved normalization plans with Israel that took years for the US to broker.
They called the white house in the last few days and said normalization was a go to continue.
The stuff they say publically to win PR points with the common folk is not what the monarchy actually thinks is the best idea.
Oh, I hadn’t heard that. Do you happen to have a link handy? If not no worries, I’m sure I can find it later when I’m off work.
It was in the littany of things coming out of the white house the last few weeks.
https://www.axios.com/2023/10/31/saudi-megadeal-normalization-israel-biden
Here’s one report. Overall seems like SA is somewhat pissed too because the Yemeni rebels it’s been bombing the shit outta started launching missiles and UAVs over their territory, and attacking Sunni hospitals in Egypt.
The state Media has been noticeably critical of Hamas, including during interviews with their spokesman.
Thanks for the in depth response! I really appreciate it.
So it sounds like while normalization is still on the agenda, it is not really possible to proceed until things change regarding the Israel/Palestine situation. But that’s more than I had last heard, where they were saying they were scuttling the whole deal.
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Unfortunately it seems that they will get what they want.
Israel has been bombarded with nearly 10,000 rockets, ballistic missiles and bomb carrying drones over the last month - from Gaza to the centre, Lebanon to the north and Yemen and Iran to the south. In addition there are almost daily terror attacks coming from the west bank.
There are civilian fatalities every day there. A school was recently hit and destroyed from a ballistic missile hit. Thankfully the city that was hit moved to online studies due to the threats so it was empty.
The only reason we don’t see a death toll of thousands of Israelis is due to extreme defence measurements including the evacuation of more than 250,000 Israelis from the north and centre.
The whole situation is just escalating by the day and the massive attacks are fuelling Israelis rage.
Both the Houthis and Hezbollah hinted a massive attack tomorrow. Another serious hit to Israeli civilians will send this whole thing over a cliff.
The IDF rarely shows mercy. I don’t really understand what the surrounding countries are thinking. If they want to escalate things to remove the status quo they certainly are. But at what cost?
Both sides are religious fanatics. You can’t reason with a fanatic
This isn’t about religion, at least not anymore. Palestinians have been oppressed by Israelis because they want the land. Palestinians want Israel dead because they’ve been oppressed and marginalized.
It is also about religion. Radical Jewish think they are chosen by the God over others. Radical Islamist think killling infidels or in name of the God is best outcome, if kids die they died for God and will be rewarded . Take away religion, radicals will have much harder time find people to die in their cause.
This is a very simplistic take on a very complex situation. I have friends in Tel Aviv, I’ve visited their homes. Some were raised very orthodox jew in Jerusalem, didn’t even have internet most of their lives. I’ve been to the Western Wall and seen the Jewish people praying, while the Muslims watch outside the gate (they each have their own time they can go in).
Talking with all my friends, the answer is always “it’s complicated”. It’s only religion so far as “we want to occupy the same space”. It kickstarted it, but that could have been anything – oil, water, ports, whatever. But since it turned to land, it became very politically motivated. Who can powerful countries ally with for key tactical military presence? For the people living there, how can I feel more safe?
I’m kind of rambling, but there’s way too much to talk about in just a comment. But yea, the answer is that it’s very complicated.
My post was specifically about radicals. Radicalized people will die willingly or / and will break all possible boundaries you can imagine. They are near impossible to reason with.
True dat
There have been religiously motivated attacks against Israelis since the creation of Israel.
This take requires complete ignorance over the last 2000 years of history.
I think they’re trying to get Israel to act in such a way that they finally lose the American support. Israel currently gets to do whatever it wants without consequence because the US will seemingly back them unconditionally. Also, many countries, people, and organizations are afraid to criticize Israel because they get called anti-Semitic. But I think that only works while Israel can manage to convince people it’s the “good one”.
The whole world condems Israel, it is only America’s issue.
Germany and the UK??
Oh those invaders country. No expectation from me.
“The whole world…”
“Oh, but not those parts!”
A lot of the world has issues criticizing Israel, and anything they’re told to support in general really.
You can’t underestimate the USs support of anything. It’s still a juggernaut.
Meh, it cant even beat China.
Those radicalized will be happy to die in name of their God. If civilian dies depending on their religion they will be rewarded by their God or infidels will be punished. So in their mind as long as many people die its a win.
It’s like asking what the allies were thinking invading Normandy. Like, yes it’s a bad idea, but it needed to happen, and trying it once gets you one try closer to the 1000th try that actually works. Somebody’s gotta do it, so why not us?
That is one of the worst comparisons I have ever seen.
Normandy was an strategic attack at a high cost.
This conflict is so one sided that people here like to call it genocide.
No, it literally is a genocide. Which is why something as bold as Normandy is required.
You mention the ordinance going one way but not the other and claim Gaza is a crater because they don’t have as much defenses. This is simply not true, Israel has saturated Gaza 2000lbs at a time in such quantity only a nation backed by a world power could. Give Palestine the same iron dome system and Gaza would still be a crater because Israel will always have more. Similarly Israel claims 12000 successful strikes, meaning more than 12000 were attempted and I can guarantee they aren’t surplus ussr unguided bullshit.
There hasn’t been a major attack on Israel since the “war” began.
Duh, there’s probably going to be one more or less every month indefinitely. Knowingly bombing civilians doesn’t exactly engender good feelings.
I’m not sure I understand what you tried to say here. I was referring to Hamas’s leaders motivations and the current climate in Israel, not to Israel’s actions in Gaza.
There hasn’t been a major attack on Israel since the “war” began
That’s just incorrect.
Yes my point is you can’t analyze one without the other, it’s a two way street with an extremely steep power disparity. It’s a middle aged man repeatedly punching a child in the face because the child slapped at them.
It’s not, there have been attacks but not one single one that is on the same scale but you have hundreds dead in strikes literally every day or every other day in Gaza.
Ed: ie 1400 dead vr 14000.
That’s a hugely inaccurate analogy. This is an armed conflict. People are dying and this child rampaged through the aged man’s internationally recognised property lines and committed the most horrendous atrocities the world has seen in 60 years.
But, again, I’m not sure I understand what this has to do with what I originally said.
Not at all, it examples a disparity of force and that disparity is just as disparit regardless of the fact it’s an armed conflict. Correct, people are dying, 100x more Palestinians than isrealis the vast majority of which are under 18 and no that’s not a made up number either. Property lines the same international community admits and admonishes Israel for violating and the very same that have says time and time again gazan occupation is a crime by international law.
I’ve already said why, you’re ignoring context. You simply can’t address solely one side in this conflict as both are aggressors both routinely off civilians but Israel at the moment is up by literally 100x more.
It almost sounds like you’re justifying Hamas’s actions.
I fully understand the context, I’m just not sure I understand what it has to do with a post I wrote about the potential escalation to a regional war.
As tragic as it is, not everything is about the suffering of the Palestinians.
How, I’ve made comparisons and pointed out disparity, stop projecting because you’re certainly trying to absolve Israel if I’m " justifying Hamas".
How doesn’t it? The escalation is 100% Israel at this point, even other nations that did back action are now backing out because hospital and school strikes leaving piles of noncombatants doesn’t look good.
Nor is it in fact all about the suffering of isrealis, I do love a pot calling a kettle black though.
Hamas spokesperson Taher El-Nounou told the Times that, rather than end with a cease-fire now, his group would prefer for the conflict to expand.
“I hope that the state of war with Israel will become permanent on all the borders and that the Arab world will stand with us,” he told the Times.I suspect Hamas’s attack will cost Palestine many lives and more land but will not lead to a greater war. Every other time their Arab neighbors went to war for the Palestinians it did not work out well for them; Iran is likely to continue to put pressure on Israel via Hezbollah rather than blow their load with an all-out attack and lose their regional bargaining chip.
It’s all part of a strategy, they say, to derail talks over Israel normalizing relations with regional powers — namely, Saudi Arabia — and draw the world’s attention to the Palestinian cause.
This may have stalled recognition by Saudi Arabia but things will normalize again once Gaza is pacified. Israel and the US are better international allies to have than Palestine.
Every other time their Arab neighbors went to war for the Palestinians it did not work out well for them
Not just didn’t work out for them. The PLO turned around and tried to overthrow two of the neighboring countries: Jordan in 1970 and Lebanon in the 80s.
Turns out a mass terror attack on a nation rarely benefits the attacker or the nation that was attacked, normally with the attacker coming away worse than their better armed opponent.
It’s basically 9/11 all over again. But on a smaller scale and with a Middle Eastern nation far happier to be brutal on the targeted side.
Saudi is probably more annoyed at Hamas for getting in the way of their plans than they are considering cutting off their deals.
I wouldn’t use 9/11 as an example, considering that Saudi Arabia, whose nationals formed the majority of 9/11 attackers and who heavilly promoted and promotes the radical Sunni Islam sect (Wahabism) that inspired said attackers, was just fine, whilst Iraq which has nothing to do with it was invaded.
At this point it is possible that Iran actually plays a role of pacifier with Hezbollah. If conflict is to expand, Iran might get its weapon and centrifuge factories destroyed. It does not need that. It gets no any advantage out of this and with possibility of US being involved it risks additional sanctions.
yeah Hamas bad. always
Curious to see how their apologists will spin that.
Every dead Palestinian Muslim is a martyr to Hamas, no? Every life just another tool to accomplish their religious-political objective, which afaik is solely the destruction of Israel. Or ask yourself why they intentionally link their paramilitary network to schools, hospitals, private residences and such.
Say whatever you want about Israel and Zionism, Hamas are NOT “the good guys” here and never have been. Their actions are indefensible. No amount of whataboutism changes that…
I’ve yet to see anyone defend Hamas’s actions, even from comments that have been reported by others. What people do say is that Hamas’s actions does not excuse Israel’s military committing the atrocities that they are doing. Sounds like you are making up an antagonistic group that aren’t really seen on Lemmy.
They refuse to admit that Hamas committed a crime, or has a long history of deliberate terrorist behavior. Rather than saying that, they pivot to Israel/”Zionism" as the ultimate root of evil. I have no problem admitting both sides are at fault, and in fact the IDF response is well out of proportion at this point. But, poke a hornet’s nest, what do you expect.
How often do you interact with tankies…?
How often do you interact with tankies…?
Outside of dealing with the odd report on our instance, I don’t. I’m not sure what people get out of seeking communities they dislike/don’t care for.
I’ve muted hexbear and blocked some political leaning “world news” communities, programming.dev also hides political communities unless you specifically subscribe to them so that doesn’t show up for our users in all either.
Granted, I don’t see every report made on our instance, but from all the reports I’ve seen since Hamas’ terror attack, the worst one was someone wanting Israelis to leave the land and for the colonisers that are actively taking more land to repay the people they took the homes from with forced labour. Other than that one, even simple things like “Free Palestine” has been reported as hate speech. So you really can’t tell what a single person mean when they talk about hate speech or “supporting Hamas” without them elaborating on where they draw the line.
Of course there are places where people will defend Hamas’ terror attacks. You can also find people who claims Ukraine is ruled by nazis, that 9/11 was justified, covid is a hoax, Holocaust never happened, etc… The question is if you see those opinions popping up on “normal” communities and supported by upvotes.
There are many people across Lemmy defending Hamas. There’s a few documented at the meanwhileongrad community.
If you go looking for them I’m sure you’ll find degenerates (why are looking for them though?), but they are absolutely not common in the all section from what I’ve seen.
really depends on the instance!
there are literally comments in this thread and every thread like it defending their actions. anyone who refers to both sides being bad is bombarded with accusations of being pro Israel.
yes, there are LOTs of people here defending and justifying hamas actions specifically, and there’s always someone saying “noone is justifying hamas” too
I scrolled for a bit and didn’t see anyone supporting the terror attacks on this post. Could you link to some examples?
The closest I found was someone saying what boiled down “what do you expect will happen when people get desperate”
There is a *big *difference between understanding why people get desperate and radicalised to commit terror attacks, and actually condoning it.
Unfortunately it is entirely possible for there to be no good guys at all. Take a step back and realize that you can choose not to take a side in every issue.
Yep that is international relations in a nutshell. The worst expression of which is war, or violent conflict, subjugation, etc.
IMO as long as we divide the world by race, ethnic groups, tribes, religions - this is what we can expect. I’m a realist, but I would prefer something better…
If you hear run-of-the-mill Gazans when interviewed on TV (well, maybe not in the US because the propaganda over there is insane so I suspect there’s no showing of normal Palestinians up close and personal, as just people, on TV) they’re often saying of those run of the mill people who died (so children, family and acquaintances, not “fighters”) as being “martyrs” and of possibly dying, including themselves, as “becoming martyrs”.
So yeah, that’s probably a general coping strategy over there for the situation they’re in, which would mean that the occupying power increasing the indiscriminated killing of Palestinian civilians is bound to push them in even greater numbers towards Hamas’ ultra-radical take on how to resist the Occupier.
Hamas is an Insurrection Movement: whilst the means they used on the 7th are abhorrent, that does not change the fact that their reason to be, structure and purpose are those of an Insurrection Movement in a Territory controlled by an Occupying Power, same as the people fighing with guerrilla warfare tactics the US troops in Iraq and Cohalition troops in Afghanistan.
lolwat?! they had no chance to do that. what’s going on now is basically directly their fault. wow.
The status quo of actually having people in Gaza? Because at this rate, there won’t be anyone left.
Not true, after Netanyahu and Bennett finish moving all 2 Million of the Palestinians out the place will be filled with Israelites.
When that happens, we owe it to the millions of dead Palestinians to ensure Gaza remains the endless series of explosions it is right now
I don’t think they have much say in the matter tbh. Hamas doesn’t even win by popular votes to begin with, and they probably aren’t very popular at the moment.
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What choice did they realistically have? Be strangled out slowly by Israel while watching settlers pushing borders slowly but surely? No one has given a shit about Palestine since before ISIS / Syria, by my recollection.
That said it’s also, of course, completely inexcusable to kill and take hostage civilians no matter the underlying justifications they might have.
This is just a shit storm about 80 years in the making. And there just isn’t a solution in sight.
What choice did they realistically have?
Victim blaming as it is. The choice was not to murder people.
The choices were: 1. die slowly while no one is looking 2. make it quicker and put it on full display, hoping that something might happen
What would you choose? The West bank shows that peace isn’t and was never an option.
As I said in an earlier comment:
"Hamas is not Palestinians. Hamas steals aid meant for Palestinians. They embed themselves in civilian areas. They take investments that other groups make to improve Palestinian lives, and dismantle them to use for weaponry. They stockpile food, medicine, and water and don’t share it with civilians when Israel cuts off those crucial resources.
The leaders of Hamas are rich fucks living cushy lives in the UAE and could not care less about Palestinians. This isn’t some freedom fighter group that’s out of options. It’s terrorists who purposely co-opt language from peaceful protestors to make them sound like extremists."
Don’t confuse Palestinians with Hamas, they deserve so much better than that.
WOW, Hamas sure don’t sound like lovely folk. It’s very sad that they’re the only choice Palestinians have. of course, ignoring the option to make peace with the bulldozer currently wrecking your home, and the soldiers about to burn your field and abduct members of your family to be tortured in their prisons.
I don’t think I’d word it that way. Hamas is hardly looking out for them, and we both know Israel isn’t at all. There are no good guys in this war. They’re all using the Palestinians in some way or another – or bombing them. The only good people are the civilians caught between all the warring parties.
I understand what you’re saying though. Hamas is no freedom fighter group and doesn’t deserve any defense you’d give one – but I can understand why a Palestinian would throw in their lot with them. Like you said, they don’t have much of a choice. The other alternative is just not picking any side at all, and trying to just survive.
I suspect however that Hamas doesn’t enjoy as much Palestinian support as they’d like. They’ve had to crack down on people protesting against them in the somewhat recent past. I think if Hamas were eliminated, we’d see a lot of them quite happy, and hopeful about the future.
We can hope, at least. The Palestinians need to be free to govern themselves, without being under Hamas’ rule nor being bombed constantly by Israel.
Hamas is hardly looking out for them, and we both know Israel isn’t at all. There are no good guys in this war. They’re all using the Palestinians in some way or another – or bombing them. The only good people are the civilians caught between all the warring parties.
Yes, we do agree on all of that, but knowing that there are no good guys solves nothing. As you’ve said Hamas is at least not trying to kill and displace Palestinians, out of the two choices Palestinians would absolutely not prefer to be at the mercy of the occupation government.
I suspect however that Hamas doesn’t enjoy as much Palestinian support as they’d like. They’ve had to crack down on people protesting against them in the somewhat recent past. I think if Hamas were eliminated, we’d see a lot of them quite happy, and hopeful about the future.
Palestinians are powerless, and at this point are just cycling through everything around them and blaming it. First blaming the occupation, then the Fatah government for not taking action, and now Hamas for taking action. Everything around them is using them at best, or trying to get rid of them.
No matter what they change their situation will stay the same, because while they are (or were) able to change who governs them, the occupation is a constant thing. If it’s not wrecking their houses and murdering them, it’s blockading them and making any development impossible.
Now what you’re suggesting is for the occupation government to take Hamas’ place, which will make the situation better somehow. This only makes sense if you think that the situation in the West bank is better than the situation in Gaza.
We can hope, at least. The Palestinians need to be free to govern themselves, without being under Hamas’ rule nor being bombed constantly by Israel.
That’s not likely, but yeah, we can at least hope.
the occupation government to take Hamas’ place
Not at all. I want the UN to govern the area as a protectorate while the pillars of government are built, and a global coalition serving as the military. Discourage Israel from bombing unless they want to kill soldiers from all nations, and build up the functions necessary for a healthy democracy.
Ok so violence IS justified after all
No, of course. That’s why the IDF is currently having a tea party, even after Hamas attacked them, they knew that violence is never the answer, and everyone lived happily ever after. Now close those sleepy eyes and wander to the land of dreams.
I hope you enjoy whatever time you have left
I hope that you don’t turn the other cheek when punched, so you can enjoy yours too :)
Do you tell the Ukrainians this too when they resist the Russians occupying their land?
Oh no only white people are allowed to fight colonists, brown people should just lay down in a ditch and die right?
Did you really just label the Israeli Jewish population as ‘white people’?
Over half of them are of mizrahi ancestry you fuckwit.
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Hamas isn’t the Palestinian people, their leaders are wealthy and living abroad. Stop muddying the waters and acting as if Hamas is an oppressed group, they’re not, they’re terrorists. They are NOT representative of the Palestinian people.
Is there a reason why we make this distinction for Gaza? Not every country gives its people the ability to elect its leadership, and my understanding is that the ruling party in Gaza is Hamas.
Why is this conflict not portrayed as state on state violence when it’s two state actors?
Because neither Gaza nor the whole of Palestine are a state. That’s been the end-goal of the peace process for a few decades now, but it isn’t the current reality.
It’s the Palestinians in Gaza paying the price regardless. Right or wrong they haven’t ousted Hamas and thus, right or wrong, Israel sees them as one and the same as proven by their indiscriminate bombings.
I didn’t state Hamas represents all Palestinians.
Likewise I didn’t state Hamas is oppressed, a terror organization can’t by definition be “oppressed” in the sense that we should pity them.
What I did state was that driving someone into a corner like Israel has been doing with Palestinians for decades leads to attacks. And it’s not like 100% of Hamas members are non-Palestinians.
Hamas is not Palestinians. Hamas steals aid meant for Palestinians. They embed themselves in civilian areas. They take investments that other groups make to improve Palestinian lives, and dismantle them to use for weaponry. They stockpile food, medicine, and water and don’t share it with civilians when Israel cuts off those crucial resources.
The leaders of Hamas are rich fucks living cushy lives in the UAE and could not care less about Palestinians. This isn’t some freedom fighter group that’s out of options. It’s terrorists who purposely co-opt language from peaceful protestors to make them sound like extremists.
I agree in general, but let’s not pretend they have 0 support from Palestinians, or that there are no Palestinians active in Hamas. Israel sees them as one and the same as evidenced by their indiscriminate bombings. Just as Hamas sees all Israelis as violent settlers and directly responsible for massacres like Deir Yassin and the Nakba in general. Neither which is true, of course. All military, paramilitary and terrorist organizations work hard to dehumanize and generalize their opposition to ruthless brutes when that in reality is only a small part of the actual people involved and impacted by the conflict. For every ruthless murderer killed on either side hundreds or thousands of innocent die.
To me it’s immaterial that some Palestinians support and are part of them. You would need a significant level of support for it to be significant. Israel tries to paint everyone the same to justify their acts, but it’s absolutely incorrect.
What I mean in general though is Hamas is a terrorist organization, not a liberation front. They aren’t freedom fighters with their backs against the wall and out of options. They’re just craven butchers.
Sure. I agree on your description of Hamas.
Glad to hear it!
You’re talking about israel not Hamas.
Even if one believes that violence was the only option that the Palestinians had left, how can anyone justify their indiscriminate targeting of civilians instead of going after military and political targets? (I don’t mean you btw, I mean in general.)
Nobody ever won a revolution by killing their oppressor’s grandma and taking children hostage, so it’s clear that Hamas are less freedom fighters and moreso simple terrorists.
I agree
I don’t think it takes a military tactician to figure out that going after a concert was one of the dumbest moves Hamas could’ve made. They could have gone after any number of Israeli Military or government targets and still had understanding and maybe even support from some Western powers. By going after a bunch of innocent civilians, they made it so they will have far fewer allies, and made it so countries like the US can easily justify sending weapons to Israel.
The choice was really simple. Not opposing a two state solution would have been a great start. All their actions have been to subvert peace or compromise using violence at every turn.
Now you can twist that however you like, but will you really deny that having an independent internationally-recognized Palestinin state is better than endless war, thousands of civilians dead, etc? Albeit perhaps less than they want or think they deserve? It would be a start.
Face it, their “all or nothing” approach is exactly responsible for the current state of affairs. They don’t deny that, they are proud of it. Read their own words.
Hamas or Israel? Hamas actually announced support for a two state solution back in like 2006, and also in 2017:
The 2017 Hamas charter presented the Palestinian state being based on the 1967 borders. The text says “Hamas considers the establishment of a Palestinian state, sovereign and complete, on the basis of the June 4, 1967, with Jerusalem as its capital and the provision for all the refugees to return to their homeland.” This is in contrast to Hamas’ 1988 charter, which previously called for a Palestinian state on all of Mandatory Palestine. Nevertheless, even in the 2017 charter, Hamas did not recognize Israel.[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution
Israel, on the other hand, has never granted Palestinian statehood on terms they could possibly accept. Look at the Oslo Accords - all kinds of concessions for Palestine, this insane military framework going through the West Bank - but no statehood. Basically every time there’s a “peace process” they pose these decreasingly compelling terms.
One state solution is making more and more sense to me these days. It sounds like a radical solution given the polarization and history, but there’s a lot more opportunity for a workable solution that way that actually allows reparations.
that’s advocating for a single state (theirs) and Israel to cease to exist. how very reasonable of them
The concern is exactly the opposite. Israel has been procedurally annexing Palestinian land for decades - the concern, if anything, is that a one state solution would abrogate the rights of Palestinians, because that’s precisely what Israel has done with annexations repeatedly in the past. It’s in fact a requirement to abolish the religious/ethnic supremacism inherent in the Israeli state, in which political parties are even banned from even opposing a Jewish nationalist identity (the 2018 “nation-state” law), and start from scratch with a constitution that actually guarantees equal rights across ethnic groups, in order to achieve equal rights in the region, barring something like the bottom half of Israel being given up to allow a contiguous, fully independent state between Gaza and the West Bank.
The problem most of you aren’t dealing with is that Israel was founded fairly recently (75 years) on the ethnic cleansing/expulsion of the Palestinian population. These endless repeated claims about “Israel’s right to exist”, “Israel’s right to defense”, “Israel’s right to sovereignty” - many of them aren’t even true under international law in the first place, and they ignore the problem that the land they currently claim was unlawfully obtained, and that the people it was stolen who still live under Israeli rule have been oppressed, starved, murdered, poisoned, etc. for decades, under a dehumanizing system of apartheid. There is no just solution attainable in this conflict without concessions from Israel.
so you are saying the only solution is for Israel to not exist. sounds like you want peace as much as hamas does
Differentiate the state of Israel - a religious and ethnic supremacist state from its beginning, by definition - and the inhabitants of the state. Getting tired of that little rhetorical trick where disagreeing with a state actively committing a genocide is supposed to make you sound “antisemitic”.
Settlers weren’t in Gaza
The solution: Change the material conditions of the people in Gaza with an influx of Capital. But alas, there’s a reason the Tulsa Race Massacre happened.
What choice did they realistically have? Be strangled out slowly by Israel while watching settlers pushing borders slowly but surely?
there just isn’t a solution in sight.There are non-violent solutions. They could come to terms with the fact they lost this conflict a long time ago, pacify themselves, and sue for a viable peace; that’s the best path out of this long conflict I can see. Constant attacks against an enemy they cannot defeat is what led to their current miserable situation.
There aren’t any non-violent solutions that would make any impact, Israel has made sure of that. Protests in Israel and Palestine are suppressed and ignored by the increasingly far right Israeli state. Protests in the west are dismissed as anti-semitism and both parties continue to send aid. Boycott divestment and sanctions have been made illegal. Every vote in the u.n. or attempt to try the Israeli government on human rights abuses is vetoed by the u.s.
If you want to see what happens when they give up on violence look at the west bank. Fatah has long ceded military control to Israel and have they been rewarded with any degree of autonomy or rights for Palestinians? No just continual encroachment and violence from settlers and the IDF.
So your solution is for the palestinians to just give up? Constant guerrilla attacks are what drove the US out of afghanistan and iraq and vietnam. So how is that not going to work for Hamas? Hamas has a network of tunnels below Gaza so that entire region will become a kill zone and Israel won’t be able to hold it. History doesn’t repeat itself but it sure does rhyme.
Hamas is not in any way representative of Palestinians. They steal aid meant for Palestinians, dismantle humanitarian projects meant to help Palestinians, and hoard food and water and medicine from Palestinians.
This isn’t about “Palestinians giving up”. This is about a terrorist group leeching off of an already oppressed people to commit wanton violence, and then hide behind the civilians to defend themselves.
The solution is to eliminate Hamas, including its leaders who are rich and live it up in the UAE, and liberate both Palestinians and Israelis from their tyranny – and then have the UN provide civil government for Palestine and stop Israel from constantly bombing Palestine.
The people targeting innocent people at a music festival are not fighting for Palestinian freedom. Their cause, as this article shows, is violence and destruction. Don’t confuse them with actual Palestinians.
There was no Gaza occupation. The conflict happens because Hamas goal is to drive Jews to the sea, to completely destroy Israel. Which it shows again and again that it is willing to do with maximum cruelty.
True, there was no direct occupation anymore with Israeli soldiers patrolling the streets. But the whole of Gaza was walled off, blockaded by sea, air, etc. The flow of goods (even from Egypt) was subject to Israeli control. The flow of people was tightly controlled as well. The IDF conducted military operations in Gaza at will. The IDF has killed children, journalists, etc with impunity, even before this operation.
Hamas is terrible, their actions are terrible, and their stated goals are terrible. But the conflict is not solely because of them. The government of Israel is far from blameless in perpetuating the conflict. Especially as some Israeli politicians are on the record as supporting Hamas’ rise to power in order to delegitimize Fatah and the Palestinian Authority, and specifically to derail the two state solution and any chance at a lasting peace.
What particular politician say have no importance, since it is not one or two politician that defines direction of the country. I seriously doubt that there would be blockade if it were not for Hamas. If you do not trust Israel on that, then at least trust Egypt.
As for IDF incursions into Gaza in the past, need I remind what triggered them?
Yeah, this guy has had zero influence on Israeli policy.
As for IDF incursions into Gaza in the past, need I remind what triggered them?
And I’m sure the other side would list grievances that necessitated their actions as well. The larger point I was making is that this conflict is not just one side’s fault.
Oh! You are suggesting that attempts to normalize relationships with Gaza such as giving more permits for work in Israel is actually a devious anti-Palestinian plan? The reality you live in… how can you complain about blockade and reduction of blockade at the same time??!
So your solution is for the palestinians to just give up?
My solution is for Palestinians to surrender and try to achieve their goals diplomatically rather than through violence, that is not the same as giving up on achieving their goals. It’s possible for them to negotiate for right of return, freedom of travel, national recognition, removal of the blockade, autonomy, peace, safety, freedom, economic prosperity, etc., Although it will be a bitter pill for the uncompromising to swallow, the only thing I think they will have to give up on is the annexed lands. Those were lost to them after they declared war multiple times and were defeated, they are unlikely to get them back. Further violence will not change this and would likely leave them with even less.
Constant guerrilla attacks are what drove the US out of afghanistan and iraq and vietnam.
The US sent military into these places for political ends. When these engagements became expensive and unpopular, the politics shifted and the US withdrew. Israel has no where to withdraw to and their goals are not political, they are existential. Giving up for Israel means being genocided and driven into the sea. Israeli political distaste for this ongoing conflict will not end it.
Hamas has a network of tunnels below Gaza so that entire region will become a kill zone and Israel won’t be able to hold it.
That’s quite an imagination. At best they will take out some IDF soldiers but still lose this vastly asymmetrical conflict. It seems to me that Israel is just bombing the tunnels and causing them to collapse, because building them under civilians using them as human shields wasn’t the deterrent Hamas thought it was. Furthermore, I expect Israel to annex more lands if that’s what it takes to keep themselves safe.
The sticking point for diplomacy is not the annexed lands but the right to return. Arafat would’ve accepted most of the border changes, except the ones in east Jerusalem, and maybe even Hamas would. But Israel will not accept a deal with the right to return, as it would change the demographics so much as to make Jewish democracy nearly impossible. Palestinians won’t accept a deal without it as so many are still cramped in refugee camps looking to return. Combine that with the fact that Israel has almost all the power and therefore no reason to negotiate and the idea of a diplomatic solution without heavy outside pressure is impossible
Israel will not accept a deal with the right to return, as it would change the demographics so much as to make Jewish democracy nearly impossible.
A one-state solution is not viable at this point. I meant right of return to Palestinian lands, not Israeli lands. My understanding is that if Gazans leave through Egypt, for example, they cannot return unless they get both Egyptian and Israeli permission at present.
Palestinians won’t accept a deal without it
It is this obstinance that brought them to here, fighting an unwinnable guerilla war as ever more freedoms and lands ebb away. It’s a bitter pill to swallow, but if they don’t they risk losing more lives and potentially all their lands.
Israel has almost all the power and therefore no reason to negotiate
Safety is a reason, it is Israel’s stated purpose for this war and historical actions against Palestinians. But you’re right, Israel has most of the leverage and any viable treaty would need to be written accordingly.
They could have abandoned their goal and seek coexistence. But using your logic ask yourself what choice does israel have as a response to an enemy like hamas?
Not bombing the shit out of innocent civilians and not committing war crimes is a great start for coexistence. To late for that now though… the only course from here is either a complete cease fire and the releasing of Palestine back to the plaistinians or complete brutal genocide of an entire group of people. It seems the governments of the world are attempting to choose the later…
This has been developing for longer than recent history. I sort of agree that israel should have continued one of the last 2-3 wars until the fundamentalist extremists surrendered or were killed. Instead of giving land back and attempting to serk peace. I think it was a mistake to try 5-6 times. after 2 or 3 it’s clear the enemy doesn’t want anything less than a war of extermination so they should give them that.
What is happening in the West Bank right now where there is no Hamas? Are you purposely ignoring that israel is giving paramilitary terrorists weapons to shoot innocent Palestinians AND protects those Israeli terrorists with their army?
ISRAEL is the party that does not want peace. They have openly stated they want to ethnically cleanse Palestine. Their government has stated wanting to nuke Gaza.
I am sure that they have all sorts of people and some of them were always this way but I suspect they were radicalized with the terrorist attacks. I mean at a personal level if someone kills your family you’d probably don’t care about nuances or context. It just happens that they have more means to carry out their “vengeance”.
My man these terror Zionists have been shooting innocent Palestinians in the west bank wayyy before Oct 7.
Oct 7 was done as a response to these terror Zionists. Hamas cited it as a direct reason for their counter offensive.
You can use your comment to justify the Hamas members, but not the israeli colonists purposely seeking conflict and killing Palestinians.
I know the world didn’t start on October 7. The pogroms have been going on for millenniums.
Don’t blame the Palestinians for the Europeans and Americans which love throwing religious minorities under the bus. If the Zionists want revenge on Germany they seen to have taken a wrong exit on the highway.
Also this.
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WW2 is recent history in the context of anti semitism. to give you an idea here is a selected list of pogroms of the last 2000 years:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogrom#Selected_list
EDIT: I guess you don’t want to accept that you lack basic knowledge on the issue.
The same as Hamas, not kill civilians indiscriminately. But both sides are horrible and I’m not the least bit interested in a breakdown of who’s the worst. They both suck, and have for more than half a century.
That’s why I say this is a shit storm loooong in the making.
So you implied that hamas didn’t have a choice but now you say they did have a choice? Which one is it?
I meant war and conflict in general as what choice do they have. Didn’t you read all of the first post? Killing civilians is always inexcusable.
Palestinians didn’t have a choice on who “leads” them either. Hamas hasn’t held a vote for 20 years.
January 6, Russia invading Ukraine, BRICS, Hamas. There’s a pattern here if we choose to see it.
I can name literally any set of world events and say “there’s a pattern if we choose to see it”. Humans are wired to find patterns in things, thinking you’ve found one doesn’t always mean a meaningful one is there.
All results of Neoliberal Capitalism. Glad to help.
Considering most of the world runs on that system to some extent or another, especially those parts of the world that get the most coverage in western media, just about any major world event in the news can be called such
Curious 🧐 how that works out.
The peaceful march to return in 2018 lead to israel mowing down Palestinian civilians and doctors in Gaza and the world ignored it.
Violent resistance against Israeli occupation was quite literally the only tool they had left. Especially when the Saudi doggos started wagging their tail and barking for israel recently
Looks like the Israelis have infiltrated Lemmy.
Ahh well, it was nice while we had it!
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Heard this floating around in the webs: Hamas wanted a last standoff sort of fight, which would result in a higher death count vs. what was happening for decades, death of Palestine by smaller conflicts.
Crips/bloods and Independent (RFK Jr.) seem to be pushing for more war at the end of the day, so looks like Iran/Yemen and others will join in on the fight. Biden sent US troops closer to the conflict, so once US deaths are seen conflict on the US side will increase.
Heard somewhere that the people in charge of Israel were also helping fund Hamas so as to increase conflict… -Tangent thought: reminded me of Clinton proping up Trump, so as to have an easier win in 2016
For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
edit: fixed word salad a bit
What is this word salad trying to say?
This guys has 0 clues. Just read his user name.
Not sure how usernames determine everthing about someone.
Viewpoints will not always align with your prefered way of thinking.
It is good to learn to talk with people that are different from what you think, so as to help when talking with others.
Hope you have a great day!
Not sure how usernames determine everthing about someone.
Bro we’ve spent a b u n c h of time having this discussion. You are very confused. Its kind-of sad.
I don’t see it as sad.
Just social media/forum talks with some peeps.
All is good, have a great day!
The part that is sad is that you don’t seem to understand where you are at with this. Its a bummer, because thats the job misinformation, like Jimmy Dore puts out, its what it is supposed to do. And its obviously working. I believe your intentions are good, but you are misinformed.
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Troll account at best, absolutely smoothbrain at worst
Translation: War. War never changes
At the end of the day, yes.
Random thoughts on the subject, while trying to connect it to other problems…
Thanks for letting me know, I made an edit.
Dont share them next time.
That is not how the world works.
Have a great day!
