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Screenshot of a tumblr post by hbmmaster:
the framing of generative ai as “theft” in popular discourse has really set us back so far like not only should we not consider copyright infringement theft we shouldn’t even consider generative ai copyright infringement
who do you think benefits from redefining “theft” to include “making something indirectly derivative of something created by someone else”? because I can assure you it’s not artists
okay I’m going to mute this post, I’ll just say,
if your gut reaction to this is that you think this is a pro-ai post, that you think “not theft” means “not bad”, I want you to think very carefully about what exactly “theft” is to you and what it is about ai that you consider “stealing”.
do you also consider other derivative works to be “stealing”? (fanfiction, youtube poops, gifsets) if not, why not? what’s the difference? because if the difference is actually just “well it’s fine when a person does it” then you really should try to find a better way to articulate the problems you have with ai than just saying it’s “stealing from artists”.
I dislike ai too, I’m probably on your side. I just want people to stop shooting themselves in the foot by making anti-ai arguments that have broader anti-art implications. I believe in you. you can come up with a better argument than just calling it “theft”.
I’d argue it’s much closer to piracy or freebooting. Generally, its use doesn’t hurt artists, seeing as a random user isn’t going to spend hundreds or thousands to hire a talented artist to create shitposts for them. Doesn’t necessary make it okay, but it also doesn’t directly hurt anyone. In cases of significant commercial use, or copyright infringement, I’d argue its closer to freebooting: copying another’s work, and using it for revenue without technically directly damaging the original. Both of these are crimes, but both are more directly comparable and less severe than actual theft, seeing as the artist loses nothing.
Copyrighted material is fed into an AI as part of how it works. This doesn’t mean than anything that comes out of it is or is not copyrighted. Copyrighted matterial is also used in Photoshop, for example, but as long as you don’t use Photoshop to infringe on somsone else’s copyright, there isn’t anything intrinsically wrong with Photoshop’s output.
Now, if your compaint is that much of the training data is pirated or infringes on the licensing its released under, thats another matter. Endgame isn’t a great example, given that it can likely be bought with standard copyright limitations, and ignoring that, its entirely possible Disney has been paid for their data. We do know huge amounts of smaller artists have had their work pirated to train AI, though, and because of the broken nature of our copyright system, they have no recourse - not through the fault of AI, but corrupt, protectionist governments.
All that said, theres still plenty of reasons to hate AI (and esspecially AI companies) but I don’t think the derivative nature of the work is the primary issue. Not when they’re burning down the planet, flooding our media with propaganda, and bribing goverments, just to create derivative, acceptable-at-best “”“art”“”. Saying AI is the problem is an oversimplification - we can’t just ban AI to solve this. Instead, we need to address the problematic nature of our copyright laws, legal system, and governments.
No, it is theft. They use an artist’s work to make an image they would otherwise pay the artist to make (a worse version, but still). And given how I’ve seen an image with a deformed patreon logo in the corner, they didn’t pay what they should have for the images. They stole a commission.
And it is copyright violation. There have been successful lawsuits over much less than a direct image of RDJ in the iron man suit with the infinity stones on his hand. And if they won’t pay an artist’s rates, there’s no way they’d pay whatever Disney would charge them
Yes, there’s a lot of problems with AI. And yes, AI is a part of larger issues. That doesn’t mean theft isn’t also an issue with AI.
AI is a nazi-built, kitten blood-powered puppy kicking machine built from stolen ambulance parts. Even if stealing those ambulance parts is a lesser sin than killing those kittens, it’s still a problem that needs to be fixed. Of course, AI will never be good, so we need to get rid of the whole damn thing.
But were they (the AI users) going to pay for the content? I have never paid for a Patreon, given that I don’t really have any disposable income. Why would I start, just because AI exists? Just because a sale may be made in some contexts, doesn’t mean it has been made.
Its a copyright violation when material is made that violates existing copyright. It isn’t copyright infringement to take data from media, or to create derivative works.
Disney has lawers. Small artists don’t.
Banning AI doesn’t stop the Nazis from running the government or influencing the populus, it doesn’t stop them burning the planet, it doesn’t stop them from pirating work and otherwise exploiting artists. Hell, politicians have been doing all of these things without repercussions for a century. If you want the rich and powerful to stop pirating and freebooting artist’s work, maybe the first step is to ban that (or rather, enforce it) rather than a technology two steps removed?
In your head is AI being used solely by common people for fun little prompts? If you build this machine that replaces the artist, corporations can and will use it that way.
Big movie studios will use it to generate parts (and eventually all) of a movie. They can use this as leverage to pay the artists less and hire fewer of them. Animators, actors, voice actors.
If a movie studio pirated work and used it in a film, that’s against copyright and we could sue them under current law.
But if they are paying openAI for a service, and it uses copyrighted material, since openAI did the stealing and not the studio then it’s not clear if we can sue the studio.
Logically we would pursue openAI then, but you’re arguing that we shouldn’t because it’s “two steps removed”.
Seems like it’s being argued that because of the layer of abstraction that is created when large quantities of media is used, rather than an individual’s work, that it’s suddenly a victimless crime. That because what’s being done is not currently illegal it must not be immoral either.
Only if its profitable, and given that AI output is inherently very limited, it won’t be. AI can only produce lower quality, derivative works. In isolation, some works might not be easy to distinguish, but thats only on a small scale and in isolation.
You can sue the studio. In the same way, you would sue the studio if an artist working there (or even someone directing artists) creates something the violates copyright, even by accedent. If they publish a work that infringes on copyright, you can sue them.
By that logic, anything that takes inspiration, no matter now broad, or uses anothers work in any way, no matter how transformative, should be prevented from making their own work. That is my point. AI is just an algorithm to take thousands of images and blends them together. It isn’t evil, any more than a paint brush is. What is, is piracy for commercial use, and non-transformative copyright infringement. Both of these are already illegal, but artists can’t do anything about it, not because companies haven’t broken the law, but rather because an independent author trying to take, for example, Meta to court is going to bankrupt themselves.
Edit: Also notable in companies using/not using AI, is the fact that even transformative and “”“original”“” AI work cannot be copyrighted. If Disney makes a movie thats largely AI, we can just share it freely without paying them.
This is literally already happening. The SAGAFTRA screen actors guild had to negotiate new contracts against studios that were using AI as a bargaining chip to lower their wages
It isn’t current AI voice tech that was an issue. It was the potential for future AI they were worried about. AI voices as they are now, are of similar quality to pulling someone off the street and putting them in front of a mid-range mic. If you care about quality at all, (without massive changes to how AI tech functions) you’ll always need a human.
And to be clear, what about AI makes it the problem, rather than copyright? If I can use a voice synthesizer to replicate an actors voice, why is that fine and AI not? Should it not be that reproduction of an actor’s voice is right or wrong based on why its done and its implications rather than because of the technology used to replicate it?
Edit: And to be clear, just because a company can use it as an excuse to lower wages, doesn’t mean its a viable alternative to hiring workers. Claims that they could replace their workers with AI is just the usual capitalist bullshit excuses to exploit their workers.
If your argument is that “AI is just a tool and Capitalism is the real boogeyman, again” then I absolutely agree with you.
My gripe is that openAI and Meta are clearly scraping from copyrighted media but because of the scale of the scraping it’s not ‘stealing’ in the traditional sense. While we’re bickering about the semantics of legality, this tool is being weaponised to further wealth inequality.
And to be clear, I’ve been referencing the AI companies and movie studios, not the technology itself.
My point of contention is that the arguments you’re using are flawed, not your intentions. OpenAI, Meta, Disney, ect. are in the wrong because they pirate/freeboot and infringement on independent artist’s licenses. It’s not their use of technology or the derivative nature of the works it produces that are the problem: making AI the face of the issues moves the blame away from the companies, and allows them to continue to pirate/freeboot/plagiarize (or steal, as you define it) from artists.
Yes, part of my point is that capitalism is bad, but thats further up the chain than what I was arguing. My point is that copyright law and more importantly, its implementation and enforcement is broken. Basically all your issues originate not with AI but with the fact that independent artists have no recourse when their copyrights are violated. AI wouldn’t be an issue if AI compananies actually paid artists for their work, and artists could sue companies who infringe on their rights. The problem is that artists are being exploited and have no recourse.
Using allegory to hopefully make my point a bit more clear: Imagine you have a shop of weavers (artists). The comapny running the shop brings in a loom (AI), and starts chaining their workers to it and claiming its an Automatic Weaver™ (pirating and violating artists rights). The problem isn’t the loom, and blaming it shifts blame away from whoever it was that decided to enslave their workers. Trying to ban the loom doesn’t prevent the shop from just chaining the workers to their desks, as was often done in the past, nor does it prevent them from bringing in Automatic Potters™. If you want to stop this, even ignoring the larger spectre of capitalism, it should be slavery that is outlawed (already done) and punished (not done), not the use of looms.
If you are trying to fix/stop the current state of AI and prevent artists from being exploited by massive companies in this way, banning AI will only slow it and will limit potentially useful technology (that artists should be paid for). Rather than tackle one of the end results of rhe problem, you need to target it closer to its root - the fact that large companies can freely pirate, freeboot, and plagiarize smaller artists.