There’s this rising narrative going around that if you ask specifically for a CIS partner, you’re a transphobe. That could be true for some people but it’s not fundamentally related to bigotry. Moreover, this narrative, the “if you only want a CIS mate then that is prejudice” is trampling on one of the most important rights a person can have: the right to choose who they want to get intimate with.
First of all, transmen are in fact men and transwomen are in fact women. Let’s get that out of the way. This isn’t a foot in the door for “trans this really isn’t that” narratives. What this is about it is the freedom to choose who you want to be intimate with. That right is sancrosanct, it is absolutely inviolable.
And yes, there’s plenty of issues that make transgender dating a special issue. If someone reveals their TG status they can be open to hate crimes and even deadly violence. However all marginalized groups are special in their own way. As a black man I don’t think it’s racist if a woman says she doesn’t want to date a black man. I face oppression, too. My class is special in its own way. One group isn’t more special than the other. None of us have the right to force ourselves upon those who don’t want to be intimate with us, even by omitting who we really are.
Really, if you have to deceive or hide who you are in order to date someone, do you really want to date them? I wouldn’t. That’s not fair to you and you’re denying them their right to choose who they want. What do you think will happen when the person wants a CIS mate and they discover the truth? They’re going to get pissed and dump you. Now you have to shame them into staying with you: “If you loved me for real this wouldn’t bother you”… that’s not going to convince anyone. They’re either going to leave, or they’ll resent you forever. That’s just how it is. You can be mad at that but that’s about as effective as protesting the rising of the sun. There’s just no way to win once you’ve gone down that road.
“I want a CIS mate” is not the same as “trans women are not women” - one is a preference, the other is harmful prejudice. On the flip side CIS people who do date trans people shouldn’t be shamed for their choices either. A man should be free to date a trans woman and not catch flak about it. Trans people should be able to be openly trans and not face hate speech or threats to their well-being. This, without any exception whatsoever.
The fundamental fact is when you shame or worse abrogate people’s right to choose who they want to get intimate with, it’s not going to end well for you. All you’re going to get is people who resent being coerced or bullied to date people they don’t want to. And that’s not something the country, or the world, will ever put up with. Except that right now, most people don’t imagine they can be labeled a transphobe just for wanting a CIS mate. And unpopular opinion: that should be nipped in the bud.
I’m a transwoman and I agree with you on this. When I was dating, I was upfront and when a guy said it was a deal breaker, it saved both of us a lot of time.
Most guys I talked to said it was a dealbreaker, and yeah it sucks. It makes you feel “othered.” But I can’t expect anyone to go outside their sexual comfort zone for a rando on Tinder.
Most of the guys were very polite about it all, too. And that’s all you should need to do.
If someone’s shaming you about it, that’s a good sign they have something going on in their own life. Essentially it’s their problem, not yours.
Hope this helps~
Thank you for your response. I feel I must repeat in case it is ambiguous: I am absolutely against any form of trans shaming whatsoever. If you want to date a trans person, you should be 100% free to do so without negative social consequence.
Not ambiguous. You’re good 😜
Oh boy do I have a load of dumb questions, if you’ll humor me? For context, I’m a middle-aged, cis, white guy. Dated a lot the last few years, settled down and just married the finest woman I’ve ever known.
What does “transwoman” mean? LOL, I don’t even know how to approach this. For me, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it’s a duck, good enough. I’d date a transwoman that was, uh, “completely” a woman. Gods I hope you know what I mean.
OK, I’ll go with my wife, maybe clear it up. She’s a Filipina, unapologetically feminine. All else being the same, if she had been born with a penis, wouldn’t care. Among 100 other things, I so love her femininity.
Am I embarrassing myself? Sure feels like it. Never had any trans friends, or even known any trans folks. Anyhow, I hope you understand I’m on your side, all the way. (That’s not a cutesy slogan. I train, I carry, I mean it with all my heart. If it comes to it, no one is going on a train if I can help it.)
No shame, my friend. People are still deciding/learning what accurate yet inoffensive terms are okay to use in a given situation. You care enough to be aware of the issue, and to me, that’s the most important thing.
Congratulations on your wedding!
I think that you likely have met trans folks but were not aware. Hell, they may not have been aware. Relative to us cis people, they are a minority of human population, but trans people are everywhere. Keep rocking your allyship and make your acceptance of everyone for who they are clear, and you might find you have people around you that feel comfortable sharing. Also keep in mind that it can be physically very dangerous for them to share who they are.
Congratulations on being married!
A transwoman (my best interpretation) means someone born male who took hormones to become female, and maybe an operation to exchange a penis for a vagina. A transwoman is completely a woman, they were just not assigned female at birth.
All else being the same, if she had been born with a penis, wouldn’t care. Among 100 other things, I so love her femininity.
See, I support this freedom to choose who you want to be with.
Am I embarrassing myself? Sure feels like it. Never had any trans friends, or even known any trans folks. Anyhow, I hope you understand I’m on your side, all the way. (That’s not a cutesy slogan. I train, I carry, I mean it with all my heart. If it comes to it, no one is going on a train if I can help it.)
Well it’s not like half the populace is trans. They make up at most 3% of the overall population. There are whole regions of America where they don’t exist or are very much hiding who they are. You may have a trans friend and not even know it.
BTW do you have any connection to the John Brown gun club? I’m not close friends with their members but just wondering.
Man I guess I’m a bigot, and I’m frustrated about it.
I get the phrase “transwomen are women” and respect that perspective.
But if I were seeking a cis woman partner who is seeking a cis man, it would be a dealbreaker if they were trans.
So I’m confronted with the reality that if I want to believe trans women are women, I shouldn’t be able to hold my second opinion, but it feels like one that can’t budge.
How to reconcile?
Are you attracted to every single woman that exists?
If not, then it is fine to not find certain groups of women not to your preferences without needing to define them as not women.
No, it’s not that I need to label anyone, but in the decision tree of selection, biological, born sexual features is right at the beginning. The character of those features is lower, obviously below personality and mental characteristics. But for example I’d like to have a child, so I need to seek out partners with whom that can possibly happen.
So it isn’t that I’m just like, grading people, it’s that some things are impossible or immoveable
Again this is just me, not attempting to impact anyone else’s path
As many of the other comments have pointed out, that’s not bigotry, as long as you respect their right to exist and aren’t looking down on them
Will naturally. Of course. The topic is successful coupling and how to signal desire without being bigoted
It’s because you can’t change your sexuality. Being attracted only to CIS women is your sexuality.
That’s not how sexuality works.
Yes it is?
How to reconcile?
LOL you don’t. “Transwomen are women (except when I am choosing a mate, then I can be selective)”
Clarification: are you calling me out for inconsistency?
So I’m confronted with the reality that if I want to believe trans women are women, I shouldn’t be able to hold my second opinion, but it feels like one that can’t budge.
You called yourself out.
I’m not calling myself out, I’m exploring a personal facet.
I believe picking a mate is a 100% choice environment. I personally (as the subject of the example) am seeking a bio, cis woman.
The point of the thread is how to indicate your mate preference without being hurtful.
I dont think it’s bigoted to not seek a transgender mate, but am open to conversation on that. I can understand putting a “no trans” label on a profile can seem hurtful, even when the intention is anything but.
Your second statement (except for when I’m choosing a mate) seems reasonable. Is it not?
I’m not degrading trans women, I’m simply specifying the particulars of my search, which goes beyond “trans women are women”
I personally (as the subject of the example) am seeking a bio, cis woman.
Ah, so you’re saying “no trans”
I can understand putting a “no trans” label on a profile can seem hurtful
Yes, people will feel excluded by this
I’m not degrading trans women
Correct, you are just saying that they aren’t sexually attractive to you and you assign higher sexual market value to cis women and that you see trans women and cis women as different
And shouldn’t everyone individually assess their own "sexual market value"s, and be free to do so?
This is an “own” valuation, you aren’t valuing a whole group of people as “less than” you’re just valuing your own matches.
It’s not that I’m too good for any one in particular, just looking for certain varieties of humans to date
on the flip side, people should be able to say they want a trans partner.
real talk though, no one should be deceiving anyone if they plan to start a healthy relationship with someone, period.
I’m stealth trans in public and don’t feel it’s necessary to come out to every one i meet or even work with. But if I’m flirting with someone or know someone has an interest in me, I respect them enough to let them know.
it all comes back to the idea that you don’t need to know what someone’s genitals look like unless you plan on fucking them.
I think I that’s a concept that cis straight people don’t get. You don’t come out once. You have a big coming out, once, to friends and family. Then every new person you meet, you decide whether to tell them outright, whether to subtly tell them, or whether you don’t tell them. Each time, you’re considering if you’ll meet them again, if it serves a purposes of it feels like hiding, your safety, whether it will affect their opinion of you and so be to your disadvantage etc. It’s tiring.
I have a pretty small sample size, but it feels like the next generation doesn’t feel that way. My 13-year-old daughter is queer and so are some of her friends and it doesn’t occur to them most of the time that her peers might judge them for it. We did have to take my daughter out of school for severe bullying- because they were calling her a furry (she committed the sin of wearing spiked collars) and spreading rumors that she was racist. She got nothing for being queer.
She’s doing an English project right now and she had to pick an event from history and talk about how it impacted today and I suggested Stonewall. She was pretty baffled about the whole thing. She understood conceptually that being queer was so hated and so dangerous in the 1960s, but she really had no idea.
I told her yesterday about how, even when I was in middle school in 1989-1991, there were no kids out of the closet. When I got to high school, there were a handful of very brave kids who were out and they got beaten up a lot. There was one trans girl and that was because she could pass and didn’t let most people know. Same-gendered couples were not allowed at prom. Even kids (and teachers who could get fired for it) who were undeniably queer hid it from everyone. Two people in my friend circle who were so gay they were on fire didn’t admit it until college. Both times, it was a “well, duh” moment when they came out, but that’s how scared they were to come out.
And, of course, if they did come out, they couldn’t get married if they found someone they loved.
She doesn’t know how bad it all was even when I was a kid and I’m so glad of that. I just hope Trump doesn’t turn it all around.
Is it not more tiring to come out to someone you’re more emotionally invested in, though?
There’s obviously the safety issues that the OP mentioned, but wouldn’t it be easier to not have to deal with an eventual reveal?
Why invest the time and energy into someone who has that much higher a chance that they’ll deny you when you come out?
Yes, but then you would have to come out to everyone first time.
Hi, here’s your coffee. Thanks, I’m trans.
Hi X, meet my friend Y. Hi Y, I’m gay, my name is X, nice to meet you. Umm, I’m not sure I needed to know that.
What about a work colleague that you can’t avoid but they are new and you don’t know how they will react.
That’s the point. The big coming out is for people you are emotionally invested in at that point in time. Then you have to make snap decisions and considered decisions for every new person forever.
Hi, here’s your coffee. Thanks, I’m trans.
IMHO a work colleague, etc. has no business knowing if you’re LGBTQ. Only ever a potential dating partner.
If telling a potential dating partner about your LGBTQ status is tiring and awkward then IMHO it is fully our bleeping fault as a society, not the LGBTQ’s person’s fault. Society needs to work hard to correct that and I am 100% here for that. Though to be honest IMO the only time you ever (the word ‘ever’ in this case should be on a Times Square billboard in glowing lights) need to come out as LGBTQ is in a dating situation.
But now everyone should be free to live openly as LGBTQ anyway. They shouldn’t have to “come out”. I don’t have to come out as cishetero in life. If I were single I’d identify as cishetero just so a LGBTQ person who doesn’t want to date cishetero can swipe right by me on their way to someone they want, and I’m okay with that. I’d also identify as black and 5’11 so people who don’t want to date black men or men under 6’2 can swipe by. Fine by me. If LGBTQ can’t identify openly that’s our fault, not theirs.
Why can’t a work colleague be a potential dating partner? That’s the point the person you were replying to was making. You don’t know who is going to be a common part of your life.
Because the Internet collectively decided that you shouldn’t dip your pen in company ink, so to speak. People are bad at communicating and breakups and some would rather quit their job than work alongside an ex every day, so they won’t risk dating a co-worker.
So, how do you talk about your life at work. Do you keep quiet about your husband, as a wife is expected? If there is a social function, do you decline to go? Life is messier than that. Sometime work colleagues become friends. Knowing of someone is lgbtqi+ isn’t just about their sexuality, it’s about their lived experience.
I completely agree, it is society that is not fully mature about these issues yet, which for someone who’s been dealing with them all their life, for 20, 40, 60 years is tiring. It’s not that your boss is homophobic. It’s that you don’t know and they might be. So you edit yourself. Constantly. Some choose not to but it can be risky, or others can’t as it’s more obvious.
Saying it is society at fault, or the other person doesn’t make that an easier experience for lgbtqi people. Certainly, in dating, people should know anything that they may be averse to. That may include someone’s trans status. Does it include their sexuality? Does a bisexual person have to disclose that before intimacy with a person of the opposite sex?
It’s a murky subject. If society was accepting, I don’t think it would be fair to not disclose, but if society was accepting, there would be no need to disclose. It’s a catch 22.
on the flip side, people should be able to say they want a trans partner.
Yes, absolutely, I mentioned that part already. Freedom goes both ways. No one should be shamed for choosing to date a trans partner.
Chasers suck for trans people big time. This is a logical fallacy. It’s different if a trans person says they’re only doing T4T to a cis person.
Can you elaborate on this? Is it the usual fetishism (similar to what Asian women often experience) or is it different?
what Asian women often experience
You got me laughing and thinking at once.
Just married my Filipina. First Asian I ever dated. Didn’t seek Asian women, had zero expectations.
I know a lot of guys want a tiny, submissive, tradwife (fuck me I loathe that word). “Ew, gross! Not me, not EVER!”, I thought. Well… here we are.
She had me watching Filipina videos last month, to help me understand what Filipina women want, help me understand her culture. “Old white guys?! Hell fucking yes all day long!”, is what I got out of it.
“So what I gather is that I can go to the Philippines and trade you in on a hot 19-yo that will worship the ground I walk on?” 🤣
She’s said, straight up, that she always wanted a white American. She was also so she was afraid I was fetishizing her as an “exotic” Asian. Go figure. 🤷🏻♂️
It’s been a very strange, and lovely, experience. I’m trying to help her be more independent, show her that we’re equals, financially and emotionally. Sometimes it’s a challenge.
Yes, I can feed myself and wash my own clothes, back off a bit. But she feels like it’s her role to provide, and I’m taking from her by not taking from her. Fuck me, I’ve dated Mississippi girls that could strap on a ball gown, get their makeup game on, change their oil and shoot like Annie Oakly. This is all new to me.
Sorry. I don’t have anyone else to talk about this with and your comment got me thinking. And laughing at how strange life sometimes turns out.
I think your gut feeling is correct, you were in fact being fetishized by the videos that she showed you. I have known Asian women who get red in the face at the whole “I love white guys” thing. I know white men who cringe at other white men and their obsession with Asian women. Fetishization is coming from both sides.
Glad that you feel able to open up here. I hope you and anyone else who stays open and tolerant to new ideas will have a safe space here.
Is it always cringe/disrespectful when someone has something about them that I love more than other people love and I tell them that?
I would say the same, more wanting us for sexual reasons then as a partner.
I don’t really know, but those people aren’t interested in the person happen to be trans. Trans people are not responsible for cross dressing fetishes. Those people might also try to form trans people in their preferred image, I think this is called bimbofication for trans women/trans feminine people.
That last sentence really hit the nail on the head.
on the flip side, people should be able to say they want a trans partner.
Eh, either or. Depends on user experience and if “What do you want” is going to take less time to fill than “What don’t you want”. But there should definitely be something ensuring people’s time isn’t wasted or feelings hurt because sexual preferences aren’t equally considered.
You should, of course, have your preferences, and your deal-breakers, and whatever else. So if you find someone you are interested in is trans, and that’s a deal-breaker for you, that’s fine.
But there is a difference between that and putting in your bio “No Trans People.” Is being trans your only deal-breaker? What makes that a deal-breaker worth calling out, but not others? Before you put “No Trans” in your profile, I would ask you to consider that, if you are an athletic person and want an athletic person, would “No fat women” be something you would feel comfortable putting in your bio (even if that was a deal-breaker for you)? What would you think of someone who puts “No black people” in their bio?
If they have any sense, they will let you know either in their profile, in conversation before-hand, or during the first date or so (before things get intimate), and you can politely end things, just like if you found out they were Scientologists or several levels up in an MLM (or both). Hell, it may take until a third date, like finding out they don’t just like, but can relate to Olivia Rodrigo’s music. (In fairness, those three were objectively bad, but I don’t know any of your non-trans related preferences, so I had to go with some things most people should consider deal-breakers).
The point is, people look for and look out for a lot of things, but I only ever hear people complain about it being rude to put “No trans.” It kind of makes it clear that the person saying it has a particular issue beyond just dating preferences.
Tact does matter. That is why I say “seeking cis man/woman” is better than “no trans man/woman”. “No black people” is bad, “prefer SWM/SWF” is better and acceptable IMO (disclaimer: I’m black), “looking for athletic man/woman” is better than “no fat people”, etc., just my opinion.
I take your point, and agree. The positive (as opposed to the “No xxxx”) seems generally to be more polite.
You can change your weight. You can’t change who you are. Lesbians don’t want men. People not attracted to trans people cannot just chose to be attracted to them. And I have no oreferencws but do understand that sexuality is not something you chose.
Before you put “No Trans” in your profile, I would ask you to consider that, if you are an athletic person and want an athletic person, would “No fat women” be something you would feel comfortable putting in your bio (even if that was a deal-breaker for you)?
I can see if someone is overweight, of a certain skin color or whatever other visible indicators you mention, and simply not like their profile, so a match would not occur.
I cannot (necessarily) see if someone is trans, so a match would potentially still happen.
So mentioning the “obvious” can be seen as harmful since you are effectively calling people out, while mentioning the “invisible” is merely stating a preference to reduce false positives.
It would be the same as sexuality? If you’re a straight bloke you’d want a cis woman, it’s not comparable to race or fitness. It’s about sexual compatibility.
This was the best explanation of how this is hurtful that I think you could possibly put together. I came into this thread skeptical of this being a real concern. This changed my mind. Thank you.
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You may be right, but if someone writes “no trans people” or “no d*cks smaller than 25cm” or “no crybabies” or “no n*ggers”, then if you are some of the mentioned, you wouldn’t want to communicate to that person anyway. If you are not, then you still likely wouldn’t.
It’s a natural flow of communication in my opinion. Let people write what they want.
This isn’t a first amendment issue, or an issue of what people should be allowed to say. It’s a question of etiquette, and not being rude. The thing is, saying each of those things would drive away more than just those specifically excluded.
To give a better example, if I were on a dating site and saw a woman who said “No guys under 6 ft,” and I were taller than 6 ft, I still wouldn’t want anything to do with that woman. It give a completely different vibe, however, to say “I really like tall guys.” I get, though, that there’s not a positive equivalent for the original question.
Isn’t it better that people get to show their inner asshole in their profiles so that you can just ignore them and move on instead of them having to hide it because of “etiquette” and then you’re only going to find out later after you’ve already invested time and effort into them?
If someone not wanting to date a person under 6ft is a red flag to you, then isn’t it good that you found out right away? Imagine if they didn’t say this and you only found out when she calls the waiter a manlet on your 3rd date.
It’s as if you haven’t really read what I wrote, repeating what I said with that disagreeing tone.
I’m having trouble understanding what you mean by this, but to be clear, somebody putting the things you mentioned in their profiles would make them seem rude or generally unappealing. I think that is precisely what the OP was trying to avoid.
The OP repeated what I said in my comment, phrasing it as if there’s an argument, so now there is one over the OP deciding what others mean before reading their comments.
Every single thing you’ve said demands specific rebuttal. But I think it would be exhausting and you’re not worth it.
Nearly everything you compare is actually a visible trait, where being trans isn’t. Nobody’s going to be tricked into dating anybody they don’t want when all the attributes are visible up-front. I can SEE if somebody is athletic. I can SEE if somebody is black. I can SEE if somebody is obese.
Quit pretending there’s something wrong with having preferences. You’re delusional and you have no right to pretend that anybody owes anybody anything except honesty up-front in a dating context.
You actually think somebody who is not interested in a trans person OWES a trans person a date “just in case”. Frankly, get your head out of your ass.
Hey can we please be civil here?
Lol, they’re a transphobe. Being civil isn’t a strong suit for that kind of person.
Not sure if you stopped reading halfway through, but I mentioned 2 clearly visible things and 3 not visible things, specifically because I recognize it’s not immediately obvious from pictures.
Or maybe you started reading on the second paragraph, because I clearly said it’s fine having preferences (including trans or not). I also never said anything about “owing” a trans person a date, just in case or otherwise. There’s no problem with it being a deal breaker. You’re reading things I didn’t say.
I think it’s telling, though, that you use the word “tricked.” It shows, like my whole comment was saying, that you view being trans as different from other deal breakers, if you think somebody going on a date with a person they didn’t realize was trans was the trans person “tricking” them.
Many women already put “over 6 foot only” or “only swipe if you have abs” so why not let people filter out what they don’t want before wasting time and money and emotion on a date and talking
And they are wrong for that as well. That sounds like someone I wouldn’t want to be friends with or date bc they reduced someone down to their body parts and not who they are as a person.
Abs do not define someone, abs don’t make someone a better person or have a better personality.
would “No fat women” be something you would feel comfortable putting in your bio (even if that was a deal-breaker for you)?
Why not? Women can put “no short people/manlets” why can’t I put “no fatties/giantesses?” I fail to see how they differ.
Neither are acceptable, especially when it’s propagating ugly labels. All of it is really unnecessary. Swipe left on people you aren’t attracted to, and if you talk to someone and find a dealbreaker, politely disengage without making them feel shitty or othered. It really isn’t that difficult.
Neither are acceptable
One is a lot more acceptable than the other by society’s standards and that is exactly the problem actually.
And that makes them bigots as well. This is not a this or that. If someone says attracted to men but no short people, they are also a cunt of a person and probably not someone you want to date.
If I am attracted to you, then it does not matter height, weight, etc…
If someone says attracted to men but no short people, they are also a cunt of a person and probably not someone you want to date.
Well facts, that’s actually what I always say. But let’s be honest women body shaming men is still a lot more culturally acceptable than the reverse and often people are hypocritical when it comes to this topic. You sound cool, but it is a topic that deserves to have attention brought to it, as not everyone is as cool.
What makes that a deal-breaker worth calling out, but not others?
Being trans doesn’t necessarily show outwards unlike being fat would. If I’m looking for a guy that doesn’t automatically mean this includes FTM.
Neither does a micro penis (or serious erectile dysfunction) and that might be a deal breaker for you. But it would still be rude to say “No small dicks, and don’t message me if you can’t get it up.” But is it worth addressing, prior to being intimate? Absolutely.
Maybe people should be direct and stop being afraid to list their preferences because they’re afraid of insulting someone.
Whataboutism much?
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It’s stuff I encounter online. But stuff online festers for years, and then erupts in real life. MAGA and QANON, for instance, was festering from USENET in the 1990s and forums thereafter. I watched it happen. Everyone ignored it, and now look where we are. MAGA of course is a whole different scale of true horror but still. This mentality I’m mentioning is festering. All cancers begin this way.
I dunno man, now days more than ever I consider online discourse to be an alternate reality. Sure a lot of what you said is valid in terms of it giving fringe politics an echo chamber and cohesion. That aside I rarely see even common stuff like what you mentioned in the OP manifest meaningfully irl. I’ve seen the “only wanting to date Cis is bigotry” online too and not once irl and thats including discussing similar with trans people.
Just my 2c, I see a lot of frustration from online discourse bleed into irl when it should be left there for the most part.
Yes, a lot of what you’re saying is true. Most trans people I know online and IRL aren’t like that. But I just wanted to speak up in case another looney fringe idea catches on. Everyone knew the politics of Trump or DeSantis politics was even loonier by an order of magnitude - and look what’s going on now. I’ll give you this - I hope my fears are overblown. I am not invested in “I told you so” yet again.
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Who, exactly, is saying that having a sexual preference is bigoted? I’ve heard rumors about this argument, but never encountered it in the wild.
Admittedly it’s been a few years but I had this argument on Reddit and caught a ban from a handful of subs for hate speech for arguing that not wanting a trans partner was not the same thing as being anti trans.
I don’t remember my exact phrasing, I did then and still do believe that trans rights are human rights, that trans people are in real danger at no fault of their own, and that their healthcare is important and should start early. But that doesn’t mean I can be attracted to someone I know is trans, and I think that being trans should be divulged in a relationship, and divulged early.
That’s a viewpoint that some, and I use the term lightly, radical activists don’t want to hear, and will absolutely accuse you of transphobia. That doesn’t mean it’s common, or that the community at large agrees with it. But there are individuals who espouse that nonsense.
Reddit is full of two things. Bigots of every variety and bots. Don’t take social media of any sort as a reflection of reality, it’s not. So much of it is bots designed to create social division now. Then the bigots come out to reply to the bots.
Serious question - you said “But that doesn’t mean I can be attracted to someone I know is trans”
Why is this? Based on what you said wrote here you seemed to be able to be attracted to them before you know they are trans but the moment you find out that they are trans, you no longer are attracted to them.
If you reduce someone down to their features and say I can’t date you bc you have XYZ features, but you are perfect in every other way and just what I am looking for in a woman, but I can’t date you bc of that. How is reducing someone to something that is out of their control not phobic?
My other question is this - post op transwoman, would you still be attracted to her if you knew she had bottom surgery and no longer had a penis?
You are your features, my guy. If you weren’t no one could feel dysphoria.
The who in question is a man made of straw
Personally, I have encountered in an odd situation. Gay dating app, trans woman being friendly, so I was friendly back, but told her I wasn’t interested. She went ballistic, saying how I could live the dream, have a straight looking relationship, that surely a masc guy like me wanted that, and that I could still get dick with her, and when I told her that was not what I was looking for, at all, she went into the rant, calling me transphobic and saying that I was discriminating her.
I just blocked her and I will never be entirely sure if it was a troll or not.
That’s the reverse situation though, isn’t it? You treated her as a woman and said “no thanks, I’m gay” and she responded with “it’s ok, because I have a dick and am basically a man”. Didn’t she just transphobia herself?
Exactly why I said that was an odd situation and will never be really sure if it was just a troll.
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I keep catching this opinion on “unpopular opinion” groups, and that’s it.
Look at the apps, most these days will not permit you to exclude trans from your criteria
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Literally nobody is saying this. OP is just doing a transpanic.
Am I weird in that I think it’s weird to announce that kind of thing on a dating profile? Like, I’m on all the dating apps and people generally don’t get access to me until there’s a mutual agreement to match, right? Unless you’re swiping on everyone or they’re actively trying to hide it, are you matching with a lot of trans folk? Are you so inundated by these matches that you feel the need to announce these preferences up front? I can’t imagine it’s so many that you can’t just have a polite conversation when it comes up and explain the preference? It’s the whole need to announce it, knowing how it could come off, that makes people question the intent. If you were at the bar and someone you’re attracted to comes up to talk, do you stop them and say “before you go any further, know that I only date cis people.”?
Many of your points here are spot on. There’s not a lot of trans people as a percentage of the populace. Maybe like 2-3% tops, so you’re right, you’re not going to run into hordes of trans people while swiping. And many of those do NOT want to hide who they are short term and are loathe to just up and hide it from a date long term. Let’s make it clear there’s no movement to trick people into dating trans people, to *further *derail any right wingers reading this to get their rageohol fix.
You are also right about the etiquette of it all. Tact and timing are important. “Before you go any further I only date cis people” is idiocy. But the fact is a lot of people do not want to date trans people and that’s their right. We have to come to a happy medium where we respect that but (to address your legit and underlying concern) don’t also let this “trans people are everywhere looking to trick us into dating them OMFG RUNNNNN!!” hysteria genie out of the bottle. I am definitely NOT here to foment that.
I’m here reading comments just to get a better understanding of a topic I’ve never really thought much about (haven’t been in the dating world for a long while) but I just had to stop and comment, I’m loving the positive and constructive discussion there is here.
I’m genderfluid and I agree with you. Cis people shouldn’t be tricked, manipulated or emotionally blackmailed into copulating with us just because we want a partner. Partners do have the right to know whether we’re cis, trans or nonbinary.
one is a preference
Maybe for some. But for most it’s not even a preference it is a sexual orientation. A preference can be negotiated. A sexual orientation is just the way that you are.
Honest question, why is there a difference between preference and orientation? If I’m ordering pizza and ask you for your topping preference, you’d tell me pepperoni, for instance. You don’t get to choose what your preference is, it’s just what you prefer. There may be reasons you have that preference (the taste of pepperoni, you don’t like mushrooms, etc.), but it’s not a conscious decision to prefer pepperoni, it’s just what you like. I couldn’t negotiate with you to make you like mushrooms over pepperoni, it’s something you have to discover on your own.
I guess what I’m getting at is that I don’t understand why there’s a difference.
Well you don’t identify with preferring pepperoni, while you do with being attracted to men or women or both. So that’s a difference, although maybe not a fundamental one – I see your question as absolutely fair. Maybe we use two words – preference and orientation – to describe two different experiences, one implying identification and the other not.
Thanks for the thoughtful response! I guess the whole “identify with” part is what is tripping me up here. I don’t live my life thinking about how I am attracted to whatever, I just am. Do you have more of an explanation for me on what it means for other people? Not trying to be inflammatory, just want to understand, because I’ve been curious about the “preference” thing for a while.
Quite a few people identify with their consumption choices, perhaps to an unhealthy degree. I get your point though.
I suppose it’s the difference between preferring not to add mushrooms and losing your appetite when the mushroom goes in your mouth.
I don’t really think that breaks the analogy; there are people who would refuse to eat mushrooms on pizza altogether, there are people who would not be unhappy with the mushrooms, and there are people who would only want mushrooms. In other words, a spectrum, right?
Basically what I was trying to say, yes!
I’m straight, by orientation not preference. Sex with women literally doesn’t feel like sex, even doing the same stuff I’d do with a guy. It’s not distressing , it’s nothing, more like performance. You can be hungry and eat pepperoni and it will feel like eating. I do find many women beautiful, and sexy but nope, don’t want to do them.
A preference is more like “I really prefer women but was stuck on this boat with only dudes, Tim is nice and good looking, it was fun.”
I hope this isn’t actually an unpopular opinion. People objectively have a type of what they do and don’t want. Specification is a good thing and will help people find their match faster. The last thing a person, either trans or not trans would want, is to spend time with someone who will never work for them.
The underlying issue is that dating apps just need better filters. An ideal one would be were you could filter out any deal breakers.
I’m trans. I think the reason people get upset is because of the reason behind the preference. That reason can be totally valid, to totally shitty, and people assume either the best or the worst depending on their perspective usually. A trans person seeing this might assume “oh boy another transphobe” while a cis person would think “yep and I won’t date a person who owns cats because I’m deadly allergic” and carry on.
On top of that a blanket “I won’t date trans people” rule tends to ignore “outliers” like nonbinary, intersex, or gender fluid people, which can feel pretty bad when the underlying reason doesn’t fit the actual real life scenario you might be in.
Here’s a few reasons behind the preference that I can think of:
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I’m straight and want bio kids - Fair enough, either your partner is cis or they aren’t compatible for that goal, or you’re getting into the nonbinary grey area.
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I don’t want to deal with the extra baggage, potential judgement from peers, or mental/physical health comorbidities that come with transition - kinda bleh but its your choice and only you can really decide what you’re willing to invite on yourself, but it feels crappy for trans people who definitely didn’t ask to be trans either.
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I’m attracted to specific genital configurations - that’s your preference, but it sort of ignores any post op trans people, which feels really shitty if as a trans person you’ve done this major surgery to be happier and more yourself, and people just assume you haven’t, and won’t talk to or engage with you over something you already changed, through a very intensive and difficult process. Overall though genital preferences are perfectly fine, people just don’t like saying “I only like penis” because it sounds weird, so they substitute “I only like cis men” thinking that’s a less awkward alternative.
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I don’t think trans people are who they identify as - real shit and the kind of people most are actually mad at when people day "I won’t date trans people.
Anyways, I’m sure there are more, but the point I’m trying to make is, saying you won’t date trans people is just kinda vague. Many people will assume the worst, which is on them, but it would help to clarify and be clear about what your real preference is, or why you have it. For instance “I want to have bio kids someday, so if we aren’t compatible on that level then that is a dealbreaker” or “I’m straight and I’m only interested in Cis or post op trans women” which with a couple extra words clearly portrays that its a genital preference without explicitly saying it.
TLDR: having preferences is perfectly fine but when people judge you it’s because it isn’t clear why you have that preference, and usually ignores outliers. Clarification, while maybe a bit longer or more complicated, would eliminate the anger in most cases. The people who still get upset are likely to be angry no matter what.
Thank you for this response. I can totally understand your points. The true transphobes out there have given a bad name for anyone who only dates CIS people.
Rather than pushing to have people explain why they prefer CIS only to show they’re not transphobes, I would propose a compromise: these same people should not be questioned about their preferences but they also should not offended by trans people or those who date them. Help make a society where trans people aren’t second class citizens. Though some people will say “only dating CIS people makes trans people second class citizens no matter the reason” and I really can’t hope to satisfy them. I think we go down a dangerous road if we start demanding why someone doesn’t want to date someone else and they haven’t given off OTHER bigoted vibes.
I don’t think there’s a solution that is going to make everyone happy but I’m willing to join the dialog (in good faith) to keep tinkering until we find the best one that respects everyone’s freedom of choice.
Oh yeah, the assumption of bad intentions is not a good thing either, I generally try to assume the best of people when other signs of ill intent are missing, so I totally get it. I just point out the clarification aspect for if you want to head off the more defensive folks at the pass is all.
The main problem with this is: Nobody should have to justify or explain anything.
The oddest thing about this whole post is that people who may or may not have been in a group that was attacked or judged over who they are are… attacking and judging people over who they are. It makes no sense to me.
Trans people are marginalized af. Speaking as a black man, I am familiar with how that works. They’re scared and they see where the roots of murdering trans people come from. It comes from people who say “Ewwww trans”. Our society shames people who date trans people.
Remember that Married With Children episode where Bud Bundy dated a woman who mentioned him as her love and then came out on TV as trans and it destroyed him emotionally, and it was implied his almost non-existent social standing was put out of its misery for good by that incident? That’s Truth in Television. Also see that quote/insult in the movie Aliens: “oh but the one you had was male!” (implying genderfluid/trans/etc). That’s our real life society right now.
When a trans person attacks and judges someone over who they refuse to date, that’s a reaction to being oppressed. It’s wrong, it’s ironic, but the fear behind it is justified. Calling out and fighting this ironic hypocrisy cannot stand alone, it must be accompanied by a validation and understanding of their fear, which is legitimate, and an increased effort to stop the hate that is fueling their fear. We’ve seen what happens over and over again when we fail to pair the two together: the legitimately aggrieved group (and more than one group does this) starts saying “we’re laughing at you as a class and you’re afraid of being a target of that, but we’re afraid of you killing us” and dialog aimed at achieving meaningful progress toward equality takes a big fat hit due to the unnecessary antagonism.
Not looking for a partner anymore anyway, but the first one is my only reason. If we got to a point medically/scientifically where bio kids were possible then that sole reason would go away.
I’m fine ending up with no kids because I and/or my partner are infertile and we don’t know yet, but I’m not fine starting a relationship wanting something that the other person knows I can’t have with them and not telling me until later.
Honestly I think it would be helpful if the dating apps just had some hidden questions like “are you interested in having kids?” and if yes also asked “do you want biological kids?” and if you answer them your potential matches are automatically filtered down. I have two rationales for this, 1. because it frees up space in bio and keeps your preferences semi-private, and 2. it avoids potentially awkward conversations or other potentially awkward public judgemental. (I’m guessing there aren’t already questions like this.)
Bullet 3: a post op vagina isn’t a vagina. It could be great, very satisfying, convincing, whatever,… but it potentially isn’t the exact biological “thing” you are seeking.
I’m not discrediting people who have taken a step to align themselves, or judging, but a surgery result simply isn’t a birth result.
Is this logically consistent? I’m not trying to cut down, but it could be possible that “the right shape” isn’t enough to qualify someone’s “attracted to specific genital configuration”
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Unless you’re expecting kids, if you can’t tell the difference, why does it matter?
What if you’re seeking a bio vagina? Like, I’m not disparaging anyone.
Ultimately, is there any appropriate way to seek a bio cis woman without being bigoted?
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How the hell does this have so many downvotes? Surely not from the crowd that preaches consent and freedom of choice?
Nah I’m guessing because it’s a popular opinion
Cause its kinda shallow and why should it be the trans persons problem, not them who cares. Like we could also mandate everyone’s birthday has to be put cause ‘I dont want to date a capricorn’
It just follows the type of idea that its the trans persons ‘problem’
But yeah still why the down votes dont we upvote unpopular opnions
Bc OP reduced someone down to their anatomy. Literally perfect woman and exactly their type is right in front of them. Cute face, slim waist with a big behind… but the only reason you don’t want to date them is bc of their anatomy? That’s the part where it moves across the line.
You have reduced this person down to what’s in their pants and not who they are, their personality, their hobbies, etc… you have reduced them to a feature of their body.
Imagine if someone said I don’t want to date someone with a cleft lip bc if we have kids that could be passed down through genetics.
It’s the same thing here.
Well except you cant have a biological kid to pass down any traits with your selected partner so it’s not the same.
Science has came a long way this hasn’t been true for decades. Just gotta be fine with a surrogate carrying the baby and/or have the $$$
A surrogate literally means they don’t have half the genetic material from one of the partners though and would still rely on a donated egg or sperm. If you want to have a child that is a mix of both partners that is still impossible. And people don’t have the money to drop of they just want a spouse to have kids with.
I’m just saying if someone wanted to do things naturally or with love of their partner, it’s impossible. And thus a reason to have restrictions.
I understand the danger of revealing trans status. I also understand that it can be even more dangerous to be discovered as trans after a relationship develops with a partner who is violently transphobic. Back in the 80’s I was in the Navy. One of the guys on my ship was arrested for attempted murder. The woman he was dating didn’t reveal she was trans and he found out when they became intimate. He threw her off a second story balcony after beating her.
My question is why anyone would want to initiate a relationship with another person unless their prospective partner was accepting of them? I’d at least bring up the subject in an indirect manner to judge their response.
Same as any communication though I suppose, what if someone violently hates webkinz and their partner has a household of them?
Its never OK to throw them off a balcony for it, so reasonable precautions must be taken to vet webkinz haters for ones safety, but also it sucks those people exist - so let’s try and put the burden on those bad people, not the already struggling trans people who have enough on their plate (on average of course, every person is different)
(not implying you disagree with this, just wanted to make it more explicit ig)
Fuck I’m trans and I agree with you
I think the trickiest part is that trans people generally have spent a lot more time thinking about their sexuality and identity than most cis people. Most cis people (or at least cishet) have put basically 0 thought into it. They cant articulate better than “straight”, and if you probe further they would just say “I like men/women”. They cant fully identifyor explain what it is about the opposite sex specifically they are attracted to because they often havent had to think about it ever. And if genitals are a factor in that attraction, then it may be pretty important. Some people may be able to see past that. Some may not. But we shouldn’t force someone to date somebody they arent attracted to, even if they cant eloquently fully explain why they arent attracted.
100% with you!
I got emails from a dating coach dude, 20 years before the whole thing went toxic as fuck. And he had a lot of sane advice!
One thing he harped on was, “Attraction is not a choice.”
Well, it’s not. And that should be obvious with a bit of reflection.
I knew I was into Wonder Woman when I was six. Also… learned I was into bondage.
Point being, no one instructed a 6-yo who or how or why or what causes a boner. To be cliche, it just is. It’s not a thing we should have to examine in ourselves. (Unless acting on that attraction harms others.)
Just roll with it, but understand that others aren’t wired the same way. And understand that’s OK, because no one made a choice to be attracted.
Not providing this anecdote as a rebuttal, just as food for thought since I’ve barely seen anyone mention this.
I have put a lot of thought into my sexuality/identity, but regardless of all of those thoughts my articulation will boil down to:
I want bio kids, until we can modify the genetic material of eggs/sperm so that two people of the same biological gender can have a biological child, my only option is someone with the opposite reproductive organs.
It doesn’t matter how much I am attracted to someone, I won’t roll loaded dice on having kids. If my partner and I discovered when we finally try to have kids that one or both of us is sterile, then so be it — but I’d like the dice we roll to not have a known outcome ahead of time.
I think that’s definitely not a rebuttal (edit: we’re in agreement about things): You’ve put a lot of thought into things and you can pretty eloquently explain exactly why you have the preferences you have.
Perhaps “attraction” was not the right word for me to use. It might be more of “what you want out of a relationship, both emotionally, and physically”…
If you weren’t looking for a long term relationship, and kids weren’t even in the question, these things still apply to a potential one night stand/FWB. This is more the angle I was thinking of when I say attraction.
Very good points, thanks for that perspective.
