They’re actually fine with children dying because it means they get to go to heaven early, plus the adversity it causes their loved ones is beneficial. I’m serious, they told me this when I asked as a kid.
Then why do they want medical treatment, when their injuries bring them closer to their end goal: heaven?
Yes, why is it that religious people aren’t completely logical?
There are a few religions that refuse forms of medical treatment. I agree with what you’re saying, but it isn’t unheard of
Something something suicide leads to hell.
Better question is why wouldn’t parents immediately sacrifice their newborns on the Blood Altar? I can only go to hell once but I could sire many children and give them all a guaranteed ticket to heaven. Actually, I could even take a shortcut and blow up a maternity.
… now that I think abkjt it, I guess some fundamentalist lunatics have probably already done it, and now I’m sad.
This is one of the many reasons why I don’t get their arguments against abortion. An abortion is just a baby’s e-ticket to heaven.
No it’s not- scripture says the soul enters at its first breath. Their arguments are nonsensical because they can’t really argue the real reasons.
They’re opposed to abortion because they want people- specifically the poors, and specifically the black poors- to have to have that kid. Unplanned/unwanted kids provide a huge economic strain on the family, and greatly reduce the ability of the other kids to succeed in life.
This means they’re more likely to continue a tradition of low wage blue collar jobs, or even better, get in on the school-to-prison pipe and provide more or less free labor for ages.
(Of course the other reason is the raging misogyny.)
It’s also the same reason why they’re so against social safety nets, universal health care and public education.
scripture says the soul enters at its first breath.
Do you remember where this is said? I grew up in a church and remember a lot of the rhetoric about how sacred life is and blah blah blah, but I don’t specifically remember that part. I’d say knowing that scripture would help me convince people that their views are incorrect, but let’s be real, these people don’t want their minds changed.
loads of places, more or less. Keep in mind, it’s the human soul (‘made in his image’), that makes us ‘special’, compared to animals. christian doctrine, this distinction is what makes it acceptable to kill animals for food, etc. It’s not murder because they have no soul. So the technicality of when life begins is different than the technicality of ‘when is it murder’.
We can see this in numerous points of scripture:
Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
This is specifically to the creation of Adam, however, we see this distinction made in other places as well. Job 33:3
The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
clear distinction, and also in Job 32:8:
But it is the spirit in man, the breath of the Almighty, that makes him understand
There is also the distinction made in Exodus 21:22-25
When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
The punishment for causing a miscarriage is the more as taking the life of livestock, as seen in Exodus 22:1
If a man steals an ox or a sheep, and kills it or sells it, he shall repay five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep.
which is why exodus 21 specifies if there is harm (to the mother), the punishment for murder is death. It also is why it’s specified that if others do it. If the husband, well… that’s an entirely different matter. which, abortions… they even contain a recipe… in numbers 5- but only if the husband wants.
The Torah notes a child who does not survive thirty days after birth does not get full funerary rites (a grim implication of infant mortality of the age).
Dan McClellan notes the current positions on the point of ensoulment come from Greek positions: Conception (Platonian?), Quickening (Aristotlean?) and birth (Epicurean? It’s all Greek to me.) For most of Christian history, the quickening was the standard (about 22 weeks). The conception became popular after the 1970s when abortion access was made accessible and the controversy was used as a rallying point to unify Christians to conservatism as a voting bloc.
Where does it say the soul enters at first breath?
Genuine question, I wanna bust that shit out and have a citation ready.
God wouldn’t kill a child unless he was preventing evil
Every child with cancer is someone who would grow up to be worse than Hitler
So Hitler was like the worst a kid can get without getting cancer?
Well unless history has someone worse
Some would argue for Japanese atrocities during ww2 or Mao/Stalin
Vlad the Impaler seemed pretty mean
This is why the pagan/Roman/greek gods made a lot more sense. They were all arseholes who didn’t care about you.
Hera cared. Hera cared a lot.
Not that was a good thing. she cared because Zeus would come down as an animal and rape hot humans, so she cared an awful lot about people. So she could torture them.
Woah don’t you know god is LOVE that is why he created hell to love his “children”.
Oh sure, when God sure it it’s great, but when I trap my exes in a basement and spray them with a hose until they say they love me I’m a “freak” and a “monster”
Yea because its a small punishment you can do for uh what a lifetime ? Try torturing them eternally and then get back to me loser then i will obey you like a slave because logic.
Don’t kink shame…
I thought the last one’s gonna be “— Gays? — I dunno they kinda appeared all by themselves”
Did ya see the recent bit about the humpback whales? Apparently the first time humpbacks have been filmed having sex, they were going broke back mountain ….
I always remind people, if there is a god that made humans then he/she/it also made Adam AND Eve, and Steve, and Genevieve. He/she/it made all of us, gay, straight, or sideways.
Oh man, I forgot all about that Kirk Cameron banana video with “Ray Shine” or whatever his religious propaganda porn name is. Good times.
religious propaganda porn
“Oh yeah baby, repent harder! Condemn those sins of the flesh! He’s second COMING!”
“god’s plan… god is testing them… god is testing ME!”
Epicurus’ Paradox, beeyotch!
Trying to pull a fast one on Jesus huh? Not on my watch!
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And the reason God couldn’t have just put conscious souls directly in paradise is because shut up, that’s why
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There’s nowhere in the bible that it states God’s purpose is to ensure no children ever die, bad things never happen, and no calamity ever befalls us. I’m atheistic myself but I just think people have this weird idea that “god” is supposed to be this overarching protector who ensures nothing bad can happen. Where does that idea come from? The God of the old testament is a viscious homocidal maniac and kills people all the time, and creates havoc for them also. Why do bad things happen to good people? Because nowhere does it state that God’s job is making sure they don’t.
While you absolutely have a point you have to consider how people — specifically theists — portray God.
God is supposed to be this warm, loving father of everything that will send you to Paradise if you’re nice for a couple of years and worship him (probably a kink of his, idk). If you don’t, yeah, you go to hell or something else happens to you depending on the specific type of Christian that you’re talking to but overall, churches, flyers, songs, people that ring your doorbell at 8am on a Saturday… they all make God look like a good thing.
Trust me I’ve pulled the “but doesn’t the Bible say…”-card many times. They always have some dumb excuse to make God look like a good guy. I think it’s fine to talk about God not only in the way he’s described but also in the way he’s perceived (not actual perception of course) and advertised, which is usually way more positive.
Well that’s true and I’m aware that god is portrayed as a loving kind father of everything (so long as you do as he expects, that is). And it kind of makes sense, if you’re going to worship something, you’d want it be something benevolent with good protector vibes.
But, it’s quite obvious from the war and misery we experience that if god’s job is to keep us happy, he ain’t very good at it. I think, if there is any force out there that can (in the broadest sense) be called a “god,” it is probably far from benevolent and very far removed from what we do on earth day to day. So instead of “in god we trust,” I prefer to think “I trust in other people and myself.” I mean, ultimately it’s on us to create the kind of world we live in no matter what.
Oh they’re just Palestinian children. (or african, israeli, or some other heathen group). Besides, where does it say again that God is supposed to make sure everyone is safe and happy and nobody dies? Didn’t he flood the earth and kill every man woman and child except Noah and his incestuous children? Thanks for making the world safe for white nationalists and blessed CHRISTIAN children, Kirk Cameron.
The last one on the right side could’ve been like “Oh, they were just unbaptised”.
“Woke did it.”
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The ultimate cop-out. Anything good? God. Anything bad? Free will. Nevermind, like, children with leukiemia.
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I don’t see how the opposite is not correct: god gave us the means to do evil, that we couldn’t do without him. But it is the free will of evil people that turns the ability into reality
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The first factor, which comes from god, is always positive
I’m sure the babies is Sodom and Gamorah really had it coming.
I’m sure the babies of the Cannanites when Moses and the Israelites were told to genocide them really had it coming.
I’m sure all the babies that died in Noah’s Flood really, really had it coming.You’re not going to convince anyone on an Atheist thread, because we’ve heard the dogma before and have used logic and reason to come to our own conclusion instead of blindly having faith. Ironic that you’re encouraging blind faith while trying to sprinkle logic into your argument.
Both people you mentioned are humans. According to the bible, they are both evil because all humans are born into sin.
You also cannot say all good things are from God for so so many reasons. But the most obvious one is that you don’t know god, and you don’t know their intentions. What we DO know is that either evil came into existence without God, and God isn’t powerful enough to stop it. Or god allowed it to exist. Or god created it themselves. So which one is it? Also, god has free will so why is their free will good but ours is evil?
Are you by any chance familiar with Stockholm Syndrome?
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You’re on an atheist board, preaching…
Stockholm syndrome describes the psychological condition of a victim who identifies with and empathizes with their captor or abuser and their goals.
I hate the greedy, destructive society we’re in, but I also see how people have leveraged faith as a platform to make things the way they are.
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Nice strawman.
No I reject the imperialism, but am powerless against it alone. Human rights are important, and the concept of every vote counting? Seems solid, too bad popular vote lost in the U.S. election a lot lately
Dictators are awful, and they lied about their parties intentions. Do you not realize… they were lying fascist dictators?
Are your legs tired? You’ve been jumping to a lot of conclusions.
I suppose we could always just pray harder.
I’m sure that’ll work… despite having done nothing to rectify anything in the past.
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Your god also demanded genocide on more than a few occasions. What has that got to praying cancer away until the cancer kills you?
As for the efficacy of prayer… are you really going to sit here and tell me that praying about issues has ever done a lick of good, compared to working to resolve the issue?
If prayer was effective at anything, don’t you think we’d have solved world peace by now? World hunger? Miracles would be dime a dozen. It’d be the cure for cancer.
Or are you going to suggest we’re just not praying hard enough? (Well I’m not. Even if mythical sky daddy existed, I wouldn’t worship a being that gaslights the fuck out of people like that.)
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So do you thank God when the doctor fixes you, or do you thank the human who actually relied on science, and other existing, real philosophies, and sciences, to you know… Actually fix you?
Prayer and God have no place in society. Have trust and faith in your fellow humans, and we may all actually stop hating each other one day.
My assumptions? Or 18 years of life being told that by evangelicals +3 years seminary.
Sorry, but you’re glossing over plenty of other instances, including the entire book of Job (whose entire purpose is to gaslight the fuck out of you.)
Edit: james 5:14. actually, here’s the whole text of James chapter five, cuz, really, context is important… instead I’ll just add empphasis for the specific points here.
Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. 2 Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. 3 Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days. 4 Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. 5 You have lived on the earth in luxury and in self-indulgence. You have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. 6 You have condemned and murdered the righteous person. He does not resist you.
7 Be patient, therefore, brothers, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient about it, until it receives the early and the late rains. 8 You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. 9 Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the door. 10 As an example of suffering and patience, brothers, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. 11 Behold, we consider those blessed who remained steadfast. You have heard of the steadfastness of Job, and you have seen the purpose of the Lord, how the Lord is compassionate and merciful.
12 But above all, my brothers, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or by any other oath, but let your “yes” be yes and your “no” be no, so that you may not fall under condemnation.
13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord 15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. 18 Then he prayed again, and heaven gave rain, and the earth bore its fruit.
19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
Famines have been around for a lot longer than humans, as have causes of faminine, such as blight and volcanic winter.
And whatever free will we have (whether God-given or otherwise) isn’t enough to overcome our instincts for dominance hierarchy and exclusionism, which figures into the (decades old) bullying crisis, An Oklahoma official calling Nex Benedict filth (and their kind, all trans gender persons, I infer). It also keeps billionares from using their ill-gotten gains to actually engage in large public-serving projects without turning them into capitalist enterprises.
As Stephen Fry noted, bone cancer in children is a pretty dick move. Unlike the plot armor (or tone armor) of our stories, children are disproportionately represented in mortality of disasters and epidemics. If God created everything then God is responsible for everything.
For us naturalists, on one hand we’re captains of our own destiny: only we can reach for the stars and cure famine and warfare. On the other hand you can endeavor to teach a dog calculus and run head first into upper limits, and so it might be with us naked apes. As much as we want to imagine ourselves as galactic civilization material, we may just be simple hunter gatherers trying to bat out of our league.
And when we perish from pollution, disaster and ultimately famine, our gods die with us along with our mathematics and symphonies.
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I totally agree with this and I don’t even believe in a god. Because if a god did exist, he’s still the root of all evil in us since we were made in his image. Wouldn’t be human suffering if humans didn’t exist.
Think again.
I’ve thought about it plenty, thanks.
Why do you think this? Why do you assume these to be given?
Because the same problems reoccur time and again, and we don’t try anything new. You might be able to point to an outlying incident, but that doesn’t change the trend.
There might be a solution in sociology. The same science that shows us voters will vote to harm rivals sooner than they’ll vote to help themselves out. The same science that shows how and why people spend their rent money on microtransactions and bad bets. The same science that shows how a nation go from detaining degenerates to mass execution in a matter of a couple of years.
We might work out a trick to get our school administrators to rethink funding massive contact sports programs rather than school lunches, but for the time being, we don’t have that, and we’re not figuring it out, and then there’s people like you turning to scripture like homeopathy. You might say one person sinning is a choice, but when hundreds of millions behave contrary to their best interests, that’s a flaw in the system.
And that’s before we look at the specific history of how Christianity was repurposed into the pro-America, pro-capitalist, pro-property ideology that has elected officials disparaging dead high-school students.
But feel free to expect miracles in the future, if that’s what you need to do. I’ll base my expectations on the common behavioral trends, not the outlying data points. It’d be nice if I’m pleasantly surprised, but I don’t expect it.
I’m atheistic myself, but I agree with you that much of what causes such horrific outcomes is the result of shitty humans doing shitty things to each other.
An “all loving” god would let people die like flies.
