Steam doesn’t allow actual gambling. It’s illegal in the US and they typically don’t sell games that are not legal in the US. Conflating other types of games as gambling when there is no actual money on the line is a dishonest and transparent attempt to make steam look bad
Valve has no control over the DRM policies of the games that they sell. Valve creates an anti-cheat and that’s about as involved as they get. DRM is a gaming company corporate decision not publisher or distributor. If simply allowing DRM is what you mean by “promoting” then that is another count of dishonesty.
What data can they possibly mine? They get an email address, some gameplay time, location data, and Hardware data. All of this stuff is pretty freely available and doesn’t really sell for anything, nor is it really violating any privacy. And besides that, you can directly opt out of Hardware surveys.
Asserting that video games are a problem for kids and that steam is evil or profit-driven because of that is also pretty dishonest given that there are basically no game distributors that keep kids from playing video games. What you are essentially saying is that we should start doing like China does and limit kids ability to gain at all. Even then that is a government regulation and not at all on steam.
I would like to just point out the absurdity of saying that kids should not be able to play video games because of steam. For the last 40 years video games have been marketed primarily to kids. Are you going to say the same about Nintendo or Atari? Are you now asserting that companies shouldn’t Market to kids at all? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?
To round it all off, literally everything you listed are things that every gaming company or distributor does in some capacity and does not make Steam different or worse. It sounds like you just have a problem with the industry in general
Thank you for this. For some reason theres new accounts showing up on lemmy who just start spouting nonsense and lies just to get other people to hate on something thats trying to make a difference.
Steam is great. For all the bad decisions they may have made, the good ones they’ve made outweigh them by a thousand. Compared to Epic who i believe has done more damage to the gaming industry.
Also lets not forget, Epic was the one pushing for crypto games. Valve comepletely banned those on their store. So who’s getting kids addicted to gambling now?
I can see the rationality of it. Once anything gets big enough there are always going to be people who look at the flaws and decide that the thing shouldn’t exist or are maybe just upset because they don’t face enough scrutiny.
But also covert marketing is definitely a thing. That is to say that people who may have an interest in seeing steam fail or lose market share one day definitely are a presence on social media that is as open as lemmy.
Steam might not be perfect, but despite what the critics would have you believe, steam is still better than a lot of alternatives.
I’m pretty sure Epic has shills or a pr firm doing anti-valve posts. They always use the same handful of talking points. There was never much hate towards valve until these last few years, other than comments on lame sales.
“Loot boxes are considered part of the compulsion loop of game design to keep players invested in a game. Such compulsion loops are known to contribute towards video game addiction and are frequently compared to gambling addiction. This is in part due to the use of a “variable-rate reinforcement schedule” similar to how slot machines dole out prizes. While many players may never spend real-world money in a loot-box system, such addictive systems can bring large monetary expenditures from “whales”, players who are willing to spend large amounts of money on virtual items. Gambling concerns are heightened in games that offer loot boxes and are known to be played by children. Loot boxes also feed into the social anxiety around the “fear of missing out” (FOMO), as some random drops from loot boxes may be available for only a limited time, and players will be more inclined to spend money to obtain loot boxes so they do not miss out on these items. The use of pity-timers in loot box redemption also can feed into the gambler’s fallacy, appearing to give credence to the player that they will be assured of a high-rarity item if they open enough loot boxes.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loot_box#Player_expenditures_and_gambling_concerns
Simply allowing DRM in your proprietary platform, advertise product with these and locking your games in a library is more than just promoting DRM. Still i’ve only said they promote these.
Name, address, credit card number, e-mail, age, IP address, device unique id, chat logs, forum posts, voice chat recordings, hardware enumeration, browser history.
Go ahead and type all these information here for the public since it’s not big deal, if you are afraid keep in mind that i can just pay Valve a bunch of money to get these anyway
What you are saying is that since everyone does it than it’s ok. Fine than what i’m going to do is pick the biggest company in the market that does that and call them out for being the scammers they are.
I never said that kids shouldn’t be allowed to play videogames you made this up yourself. If anything shouldn’t be allowed it’s these greedy companies to trick kids. One thing is to market games to kids another to target them with shady and hostile business practices .
To add one last thing, even if every part of your discussion lends to legitimate concerns, the statement as you originally made
Valve abducts kids into gambling, mine people data, promotes DRMs and proprietary software. All of that out of geed and seeking profits.
Is just alarmist bs, which is transparently and intentionally trying to make Steam look bad about things that are loosely related to that statement at best.
Valve abducts kids into gambling
Valve isn’t abducting anybody. Game devs are encouraging gambling like behaviors
mine people data
Data you either opt out of the collection of, give freely to everyone all the time, or is illegal to sell
promotes DRMs and proprietary software
“allows” does not equal “promotes”
All of that out of geed and seeking profits.
They exist to make money. Steam costs money to operate. This is not controversial. Every single game company and storefront does else they would release their products for free.
I didn’t mean for this to become another long comment. I think it’s absurd that you are nitpicking tiny aspects that are theoretical or ethical in origin, most of which steam doesn’t directly control anyway, and playing that off as steam being some evil big bad corporation. It’s dishonest, full stop
Loot boxes may be similar to, but are not gambling. Compulsion loops in some form are part of pretty much any game. Micro transactions are awful, but they aren’t steams fault for existing. Looking at feedback loops that aren’t in the least steams decision to include, and concluding that steam supports gambling is a reach. You’re mad at game devs for using this tactic, not steam.
Being loosely affiliated with games that have DRM isn’t even promotion. Locking games to your library? Really? Are you going to say that steam shouldn’t do what every other digital store front does? Are you suggesting that they open themselves up to piracy by not enforcing that they keep their products confined to the users that bought them? So what, steam is supposed to just give their games away?
Most of that information can be discovered about you through a background check. Steam isn’t selling your credit card info. That’s nowhere close to legal. Hardware information and ip aren’t protected information. You blast that to the world every time you get on the internet unless you are explicitly using a browser that stops it. First of all, nobody is going to pay for information your browser gives for free. Secondly, just because they collect that information doesn’t mean they’re selling it in the first place. And thirdly, even if they were selling “chat logs and browser history”, if just being able to collect that data means that they must be selling it, you better not be using discord or lemmy or any other non-encrypted medium to talk to your friends, because they’re all selling your conversations for fractions of pennies. That doesn’t sound a little paranoid to you?
No, what I’m saying is that you aren’t mad at steam. You’re mad at the industry. If you’re trying to affect change, flaming steam on an almost unknown social media site for doing something that’s industry-standard like marketing to kids is missing the target so hard you might as well be talking to the moon.
Again, steam is hardly exploiting anyone. Every single point you made is an industry standard that steam isn’t explicity stopping.
Look, I made all my points. It’s abundantly clear that you’re just angry because of the state of the industry as a whole. That’s your right. But the more you try to dishonestly paint steam as actively malicious when it’s pretty obvious they’re just another company, and a less invasive one than most at that, the less inclined you are to change my mind.
Valve promotes lootboxes and even add them in their own games.
You don’t need a third party launcher to use Blender or Krita, neither to play Minetest, Mindustry, Endless sky, 0ad, Wesnoth and many other games.
Why are you so paranoid posting your name, address, credit card number, e-mail, age, IP address, device unique id, chat logs, forum posts, voice chat recordings, hardware enumeration, browser history? Never mind if you don’t want to share these information, my cousin work for Valve i can ask him for these anyway
4/5. Valve is not a machine, they are humans, they are not forced to be scummy just because everyone does it. Valve is pretty much a monopoly, they shaped the industry as it is more than everyone else. Who should we blame for lootboxes? 10 years old kids because they are stupid and buy these?
Loot boxes aren’t gambling if you earn them in game and don’t buy them. Personally, I believe that micro transactions for loot boxes should be outlawed altogether, but especially for kids. That doesn’t mean the practice of having those in games falls more on steam than the developers who push the practice in the first place.
No one is stopping indie devs from releasing their own games. Steam provides a service with tools and structure. Don’t pretend like steam just sells the game and takes a cut.
(3) Telling me to post my information is asking me for a show of good faith in an inquiry you are explicitly making in bad faith to bludgeon your point. There’s no good faith way to assert “well if it doesn’t matter than do it coward”. I don’t want to get doxxed. You don’t get doxxed when a company sells your info. There’s an extremely basic difference and you know it.
You’re just forcing your false equivalency to pretend your point has legitimacy, and in doing so have completely lost any credibility you might have had with me to begin with.
If your argument is in good faith, post yours. Otherwise don’t pretend like my not posting it proves anything except that you’re willing to stoop to bullying to push your point.
Why don’t you blame regulations on gambling that enable this behavior in the industry you so clearly despise. You’ll get further petitioning your government than yelling into the void about practices you don’t like.
Deciding that steam is the be-all end-all in the whole system is just asinine. You’ll argue that steam can be better and that’s the only reason you’re saying any of this, but the harsh truth is that steam could be quite a lot worse.
But seriously though, I am completely done with this conversation. You have shown multiple times in every single comment you have made so far that good faith isn’t really a thing for you.
I don’t know what you’re trying to accomplish but it certainly isn’t changing my mind. I’m definitely not going to change yours. Someone who makes a comment like “Valve is abducting kids into gambling for greed and profit” isn’t looking to accept logic except in a way that confirms their own bias.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loot_box#Player_expenditures_and_gambling_concerns
I personally believe that micro transactions shouldn’t be outlawed, you cannot ask everything to the law or expect to be a law for everything. It’s people that should open their eyes and stop defending scum companies promoting them. Valve has it’s own games with lootboxes. They are both to blame as developers and publishers.
When someone get all your informations you indeed are getting doxed you are just not aware.
I blame the scammers and the people defending the scammers, like you, shame on you for defending greedy ass companies like valve who profit out of kids.
greedy ass companies like valve who profit out of kids.
Again, and for the last time, you have a problem with the industry. Extreme statements like this reveal what your intentions actually are. If valve is to blame, then by the same logic you would have all but the smallest game devs and publishers not exist for the want of them doing things correctly according to you, and you’d call it a solution.
This conversation is going nowhere, you will not be satisfied.
Also, telling me I’m being doxxed anyway demonstrates pretty thoroughly that you have no idea what you’re talking about. Thanks for that.
EEE has nothing to do with what steam is. Other game stores exist that valve can’t affect on other platforms. You’re just pulling things out of your ass.
And finally, saying the government shouldn’t have to fix something that won’t fix itself, as evidenced by the fact that loot boxes have been an issue for a decade now, and just resorting to shaming people as a method of reprisal, has a name.
You are virtue signaling. And what you are doing here is about as effective as virtue signaling.
Anyway, blame whoever you want. The time you could have changed anyone’s mind here passed with your very first comment, as evidenced by the downvotes.
Again, and for the last time, you have a problem with the industry.
Again, Valve it’s part of the industry and one if not the biggest chunk of it.
You are saying lootbooxes are an issue the government should regulate and you are spending hours defending the forprofit company of the people who pioneered lootboxes and made them popular among kids more than everybody else.
You’re yelling into the void. Enjoy that.
I don’t enjoy it much but you seem confused and i’m trying to help you figure out that valve is yet another evil forprofit company and that defending them doesn’t bring any justice into the world.
Ok, let’s take this point by point:
Steam doesn’t allow actual gambling. It’s illegal in the US and they typically don’t sell games that are not legal in the US. Conflating other types of games as gambling when there is no actual money on the line is a dishonest and transparent attempt to make steam look bad
Valve has no control over the DRM policies of the games that they sell. Valve creates an anti-cheat and that’s about as involved as they get. DRM is a gaming company corporate decision not publisher or distributor. If simply allowing DRM is what you mean by “promoting” then that is another count of dishonesty.
What data can they possibly mine? They get an email address, some gameplay time, location data, and Hardware data. All of this stuff is pretty freely available and doesn’t really sell for anything, nor is it really violating any privacy. And besides that, you can directly opt out of Hardware surveys.
Asserting that video games are a problem for kids and that steam is evil or profit-driven because of that is also pretty dishonest given that there are basically no game distributors that keep kids from playing video games. What you are essentially saying is that we should start doing like China does and limit kids ability to gain at all. Even then that is a government regulation and not at all on steam.
I would like to just point out the absurdity of saying that kids should not be able to play video games because of steam. For the last 40 years video games have been marketed primarily to kids. Are you going to say the same about Nintendo or Atari? Are you now asserting that companies shouldn’t Market to kids at all? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?
Thank you for this. For some reason theres new accounts showing up on lemmy who just start spouting nonsense and lies just to get other people to hate on something thats trying to make a difference.
Steam is great. For all the bad decisions they may have made, the good ones they’ve made outweigh them by a thousand. Compared to Epic who i believe has done more damage to the gaming industry.
Also lets not forget, Epic was the one pushing for crypto games. Valve comepletely banned those on their store. So who’s getting kids addicted to gambling now?
I can see the rationality of it. Once anything gets big enough there are always going to be people who look at the flaws and decide that the thing shouldn’t exist or are maybe just upset because they don’t face enough scrutiny.
But also covert marketing is definitely a thing. That is to say that people who may have an interest in seeing steam fail or lose market share one day definitely are a presence on social media that is as open as lemmy.
Steam might not be perfect, but despite what the critics would have you believe, steam is still better than a lot of alternatives.
I’m pretty sure Epic has shills or a pr firm doing anti-valve posts. They always use the same handful of talking points. There was never much hate towards valve until these last few years, other than comments on lame sales.
Let’s take this point to point yeah:
“Loot boxes are considered part of the compulsion loop of game design to keep players invested in a game. Such compulsion loops are known to contribute towards video game addiction and are frequently compared to gambling addiction. This is in part due to the use of a “variable-rate reinforcement schedule” similar to how slot machines dole out prizes. While many players may never spend real-world money in a loot-box system, such addictive systems can bring large monetary expenditures from “whales”, players who are willing to spend large amounts of money on virtual items. Gambling concerns are heightened in games that offer loot boxes and are known to be played by children. Loot boxes also feed into the social anxiety around the “fear of missing out” (FOMO), as some random drops from loot boxes may be available for only a limited time, and players will be more inclined to spend money to obtain loot boxes so they do not miss out on these items. The use of pity-timers in loot box redemption also can feed into the gambler’s fallacy, appearing to give credence to the player that they will be assured of a high-rarity item if they open enough loot boxes.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loot_box#Player_expenditures_and_gambling_concerns
Simply allowing DRM in your proprietary platform, advertise product with these and locking your games in a library is more than just promoting DRM. Still i’ve only said they promote these.
Name, address, credit card number, e-mail, age, IP address, device unique id, chat logs, forum posts, voice chat recordings, hardware enumeration, browser history. Go ahead and type all these information here for the public since it’s not big deal, if you are afraid keep in mind that i can just pay Valve a bunch of money to get these anyway
What you are saying is that since everyone does it than it’s ok. Fine than what i’m going to do is pick the biggest company in the market that does that and call them out for being the scammers they are. I never said that kids shouldn’t be allowed to play videogames you made this up yourself. If anything shouldn’t be allowed it’s these greedy companies to trick kids. One thing is to market games to kids another to target them with shady and hostile business practices .
There’s plenty of better companies and developers that make games that don’t exploit you. https://libregaming.org/play-libre-games/
To add one last thing, even if every part of your discussion lends to legitimate concerns, the statement as you originally made
Is just alarmist bs, which is transparently and intentionally trying to make Steam look bad about things that are loosely related to that statement at best.
Valve isn’t abducting anybody. Game devs are encouraging gambling like behaviors
Data you either opt out of the collection of, give freely to everyone all the time, or is illegal to sell
“allows” does not equal “promotes”
They exist to make money. Steam costs money to operate. This is not controversial. Every single game company and storefront does else they would release their products for free.
I didn’t mean for this to become another long comment. I think it’s absurd that you are nitpicking tiny aspects that are theoretical or ethical in origin, most of which steam doesn’t directly control anyway, and playing that off as steam being some evil big bad corporation. It’s dishonest, full stop
Loot boxes may be similar to, but are not gambling. Compulsion loops in some form are part of pretty much any game. Micro transactions are awful, but they aren’t steams fault for existing. Looking at feedback loops that aren’t in the least steams decision to include, and concluding that steam supports gambling is a reach. You’re mad at game devs for using this tactic, not steam.
Being loosely affiliated with games that have DRM isn’t even promotion. Locking games to your library? Really? Are you going to say that steam shouldn’t do what every other digital store front does? Are you suggesting that they open themselves up to piracy by not enforcing that they keep their products confined to the users that bought them? So what, steam is supposed to just give their games away?
Most of that information can be discovered about you through a background check. Steam isn’t selling your credit card info. That’s nowhere close to legal. Hardware information and ip aren’t protected information. You blast that to the world every time you get on the internet unless you are explicitly using a browser that stops it. First of all, nobody is going to pay for information your browser gives for free. Secondly, just because they collect that information doesn’t mean they’re selling it in the first place. And thirdly, even if they were selling “chat logs and browser history”, if just being able to collect that data means that they must be selling it, you better not be using discord or lemmy or any other non-encrypted medium to talk to your friends, because they’re all selling your conversations for fractions of pennies. That doesn’t sound a little paranoid to you?
No, what I’m saying is that you aren’t mad at steam. You’re mad at the industry. If you’re trying to affect change, flaming steam on an almost unknown social media site for doing something that’s industry-standard like marketing to kids is missing the target so hard you might as well be talking to the moon.
Again, steam is hardly exploiting anyone. Every single point you made is an industry standard that steam isn’t explicity stopping.
Look, I made all my points. It’s abundantly clear that you’re just angry because of the state of the industry as a whole. That’s your right. But the more you try to dishonestly paint steam as actively malicious when it’s pretty obvious they’re just another company, and a less invasive one than most at that, the less inclined you are to change my mind.
I’m out.
Valve promotes lootboxes and even add them in their own games.
You don’t need a third party launcher to use Blender or Krita, neither to play Minetest, Mindustry, Endless sky, 0ad, Wesnoth and many other games.
Why are you so paranoid posting your name, address, credit card number, e-mail, age, IP address, device unique id, chat logs, forum posts, voice chat recordings, hardware enumeration, browser history? Never mind if you don’t want to share these information, my cousin work for Valve i can ask him for these anyway
4/5. Valve is not a machine, they are humans, they are not forced to be scummy just because everyone does it. Valve is pretty much a monopoly, they shaped the industry as it is more than everyone else. Who should we blame for lootboxes? 10 years old kids because they are stupid and buy these?
Loot boxes aren’t gambling if you earn them in game and don’t buy them. Personally, I believe that micro transactions for loot boxes should be outlawed altogether, but especially for kids. That doesn’t mean the practice of having those in games falls more on steam than the developers who push the practice in the first place.
No one is stopping indie devs from releasing their own games. Steam provides a service with tools and structure. Don’t pretend like steam just sells the game and takes a cut.
(3) Telling me to post my information is asking me for a show of good faith in an inquiry you are explicitly making in bad faith to bludgeon your point. There’s no good faith way to assert “well if it doesn’t matter than do it coward”. I don’t want to get doxxed. You don’t get doxxed when a company sells your info. There’s an extremely basic difference and you know it.
You’re just forcing your false equivalency to pretend your point has legitimacy, and in doing so have completely lost any credibility you might have had with me to begin with.
If your argument is in good faith, post yours. Otherwise don’t pretend like my not posting it proves anything except that you’re willing to stoop to bullying to push your point.
Deciding that steam is the be-all end-all in the whole system is just asinine. You’ll argue that steam can be better and that’s the only reason you’re saying any of this, but the harsh truth is that steam could be quite a lot worse.
But seriously though, I am completely done with this conversation. You have shown multiple times in every single comment you have made so far that good faith isn’t really a thing for you.
I don’t know what you’re trying to accomplish but it certainly isn’t changing my mind. I’m definitely not going to change yours. Someone who makes a comment like “Valve is abducting kids into gambling for greed and profit” isn’t looking to accept logic except in a way that confirms their own bias.
This is pointless.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loot_box#Player_expenditures_and_gambling_concerns I personally believe that micro transactions shouldn’t be outlawed, you cannot ask everything to the law or expect to be a law for everything. It’s people that should open their eyes and stop defending scum companies promoting them. Valve has it’s own games with lootboxes. They are both to blame as developers and publishers.
A monopoly eat the whole market. Proprietary standards and walled gardens too threaten the whole community https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish
When someone get all your informations you indeed are getting doxed you are just not aware.
I blame the scammers and the people defending the scammers, like you, shame on you for defending greedy ass companies like valve who profit out of kids.
Again, and for the last time, you have a problem with the industry. Extreme statements like this reveal what your intentions actually are. If valve is to blame, then by the same logic you would have all but the smallest game devs and publishers not exist for the want of them doing things correctly according to you, and you’d call it a solution.
This conversation is going nowhere, you will not be satisfied.
Also, telling me I’m being doxxed anyway demonstrates pretty thoroughly that you have no idea what you’re talking about. Thanks for that.
EEE has nothing to do with what steam is. Other game stores exist that valve can’t affect on other platforms. You’re just pulling things out of your ass.
And finally, saying the government shouldn’t have to fix something that won’t fix itself, as evidenced by the fact that loot boxes have been an issue for a decade now, and just resorting to shaming people as a method of reprisal, has a name.
You are virtue signaling. And what you are doing here is about as effective as virtue signaling.
Anyway, blame whoever you want. The time you could have changed anyone’s mind here passed with your very first comment, as evidenced by the downvotes.
You’re yelling into the void. Enjoy that.
Again, Valve it’s part of the industry and one if not the biggest chunk of it.
You are saying lootbooxes are an issue the government should regulate and you are spending hours defending the forprofit company of the people who pioneered lootboxes and made them popular among kids more than everybody else.
I don’t enjoy it much but you seem confused and i’m trying to help you figure out that valve is yet another evil forprofit company and that defending them doesn’t bring any justice into the world.