So, I’m just assuming we’ve all seen the discussions about the bear.
Personally I feel that this is an opportunity for everyone to stop and think a little about it.
The knee-jerk reaction from many men seems to be something along the lines of “You would choose a dangerous animal over me? That makes me feel bad about myself.” which results in endless comments of the “Akchully… according to Bayes theorem you are much more likely to…” kind.
It should be clear by now that it doesn’t lead to good places.
Maybe, and I’m open to being wrong, but maybe the real message is women saying: “We are scared of unknown men.”
Then, if that is the message intended, what do we do next? Maybe the best thing is just to listen. To ask questions. What have you experienced to make you feel that way?
I firmly believe that the empathy we give lays a foundation for other people being willing to have empathy for the things we try to communicate.
It doesn’t mean we should feel bad about ourselves, but just to recognize that someone is trying to say something, and it’s not a technical discussion about bears.
What do you think?
For those that haven’t seen it, the bear meme is an article some lady wrote. A majority of women would rather be alone in the woods with a random bear, than a random man. Then she posted about getting hate mail for that.
Oh I read it as beer and was confused for a while
I would love to be in the woods with beer.
The “random” part does really take the fun out of it though.
Free beer is my favorite brand.
I think a lot of men believe “I’m one of the good ones” and don’t stop to think that a random woman on the street (or in the woods, in this case) has no way of determining that.
It’s worth to know that nobody is ever infallible. I’ve always thought that same thing, “I’m a good guy.”. But I’ve learned that it’s better to think, “i may think I’m a good guy, but I need to be careful about how I come off,” because I have said some fucked up things without realizing it.
Like, I have genuinely made some people uncomfortable without me realizing it, and I’ve been trying hard to be more aware of not only the situation I’m putting someone in, but the vibes I’m giving off.
You get it
I had a pretty pivotal experience around this realization when I was in my late teens. A buddy of mine and I were driving around town running errands, and we ended up driving past this same woman a couple of times like miles apart. At one point, I rolled down my window and asked if she needed a ride. The look on her face broke part of me. She was terrified of me. I’d never been looked at like that before.
I was so nieve at that point in my life. It never even occurred to me how horrifying 2 guys you don’t know rolling up and trying to get you in their car might be. Neither of had any bad intentions…it was hot as hell out, and we figured she’d been walking for miles at that point. But none of that matters…we were like clumsy giants destroying a village we wanted to visit because we never considered the fact that we were just too big.
I still feel bad when I think about it and that was 20 years ago.
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I think you might be right in that idea. One time I was out with my wife at a club show. She got a little too drunk and stumbling. I was walking her out of the club to pick up the metro and go home, when some chick stopped us (her) and whispered something in my wife’s ear.
My wife responded “No, it’s good. He’s my husband.” When I asked my wife what was that about and she told me that she was “checking to make sure I knew you.” My first response was “oh yeah that makes sense. Men suck.” I was low-key glad they checked on my wife though. They had no way of knowing if “I’m one of the good ones.”
Did they apologize to you afterwards? If not then that’s what’s fucked up about this whole situation in society. You can’t treat a person that you just suspected was a harasser like wind after you do it, and excuse it with “men are shitty, so I’m forgiven for my own shitty behaviour towards the good ones”.
Well, no they didn’t apologize. I didn’t expect them because of the situation. I was literally walking quickly through a crowd of people. They only had a very small window to talk before I was already moving away with my wife in hand. By the time I noticed and stopped and asked my wife, the good samaritan was far enough away in a crowded bar that she wouldn’t be able to say anything.
Maybe I don’t take offense because she didn’t treat me like a suspected harasser. She didn’t treat me like anything. She looked out for my wife. I greatly appreciate that she was looking out for customers that drank too much. That was the end of my thoughts.
Why should I be offended that the club was trying to make sure their customers were safe? I guess I would be offended if they stopped me and separated us and asked 20 questions, but that isn’t the case. The interaction took maybe 5 seconds and I didn’t noticed until I was pulling on her arm and had some resistance. I looked back and by that time she was pulling herself toward me.
and plenty of women who think they are ‘the good ones’ are an abusive psycho. and men have no way of knowing until they are abused by her.
And George Washington Carver was genius with peanuts. Whats that got to do with the topic at hand?
It’s not a maybe, that’s literally the entire point of the message. Unknown men are all too often kinda shitty because we have zero systems in place to teach men how to be good people and many systemic ways in which we’re told that we’re automatically better. We’re generally physically bigger, generally stronger, and, for the most part, taught to be entitled to a woman we happen to fancy.
But yes, you’ve read it correctly and we shouldn’t be getting upset but instead working on making ourselves more trustworthy. And it won’t happen in our lifetimes but it’ll be progress.
Who teaches you that you’re entitled to a woman you fancy?
Traditional Western media. The hero always gets the girl?
Andrew Tate
Le Roman de la Rose, a mediaeval French poem that informed the tropes of western heterosexual media for the last thousand years.
If you took it personally, you might be part of the problem
Yeah, it seems the guys that heard this and just said “yeah, that tracks” have already done the thought process/critical analysis that this movement is trying to evoke
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I take it personally because I hate that this is the world we’re living in
Literally not personal. It’s not about you, specifically.
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You can feel sad. I’m also unhappy about how I’m often viewed as a threat.
But it’s not personal. They’re not looking at me, jjj, and saying I specifically scare them.
Maybe you meant something else by “take it personally”?
Like there’s a difference between not being allowed into the bar because it’s full and because you got drunk and smashed a chair last time. The second is personal.
no, it’s just not personal. unless the Q was “would you rather be with kat_angstrom or bear”
depends - as a related question - do you feel sad about locking your door because thieves exist and people didn’t lock their doors until about 80-90 years ago?
would you and do you leave your door unlocked as a sign of solidarity with the victims of theft?
like with the original question I’m not literally asking you - I’m saying there are accepted norms in society that change.
I dont think this question really explores a lot of global or historical context either. Do women in the 1890s in Africa feel safe alone with men? What about women in 1620s France? 1200 Roman empire? 200 BC Jordan?
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Or just gay? You’re being an ass.
Downvoted for being gay. So now you’re a misandrist and a homophobe. Are you collecting them?
Made me realize (hyperbole) how literal people are, how ready some are to dig their heels in and not interested in listening at all. If one ever had a conversation with a women (hyperbole), the unsafe feeling is something that comes up pretty often (I guess the women has to feel safe around you - so maybe there is that) and is sadly based on personal negative experiences they had.
I agree, This polarization is something I wish we had a strategy against. Or, at least, the knowledge to identify something as likely to result in heel-digging. The reason I believe we should discuss this meme here is not to figure out the statistics of wildlife, but to gain insights about how certain things affect us, and what type of response is desired and helpful.
At least for me the question is how to talk to people who don’t want to listen. And the easiest answer is obviously not to, but that does not work in long term since it just enforces the existing echo chambers.
I read somewhere and like to mention it to other guys when it comes up in conversation about the difference between a man’s and woman’s greatest fear on a date.
The man is usually scared of being laughed at or rejected. The woman is usually scared of being killed.
It kinda puts things into perspective for me.
My take is that the people that would benefit the most from the introspection this hypothetical is meant to illicit are the furthest from being able to take it to heart. It works better as a way to make the worst people around you out themselves, so now you know to avoid them.
This whole scenario makes total sense to me. Try to put yourself in the role of the woman:
Man vs bear, random encounter alone in the woods. Both can easily overpower and harm you.
With the bear, you know it’s one or the other, it either is going to be scared off by you yelling at it, or it’s not and it will very quickly kill you.
The man, if he intends no harm, cool. But if he does intend harm, it can be impossible to tell. He can lie to you, appear friendly and helpful, all the while plotting to harm you horrifically. The bear can have no such malice.
The bear will not target you because of your race, sex, political views, gender identity, sexuality, or nationality.
The bear won’t pretend to be your friend to lure you into a sense of false security. The bear won’t become enraged at something you say and all of a sudden turn on you.
The bear has no fragile sense of ego that it will attempt to assert if it feels you “wounded” it in some trivial way.
A bear cannot be brainwashed by toxic propaganda or cultural norms about gender roles. A bear will never have any sense of sexual entitlement.
A bear won’t drug you and assault you, a bear won’t call its friends to join in when you are vulnerable. A bear won’t hold blackmail against you after getting you drunk and manipulating you.
If all women had to do 99.99% of the time to scare away dangerous men was stand up tall, puff our their chests, and yell loudly, I doubt we would be having this conversation.
If all women had to do 99.99% of the time to scare away dangerous men was stand up tall, puff our their chests, and yell loudly, I doubt we would be having this conversation.
Not a joke, actually. By and large, predatory men prey upon weak women. Women who are afraid of conflict, afraid of drawing attention to themselves. Gavin DeBecker, author of The Gift of Fear, wrote that one of the greatest things you can do in the case of being attacked is to very loudly and boldly reject their advances. “I TOLD YOU NO, LEAVE ME ALONE.” The vast majority will run away because they can’t be stealthy.
It would probably be pretty effective on men too, tho XD
maybe the real message is women saying: “We are scared of unknown men.”
It’s not unknown men, it’s alone with men, period. Most sexual assaults are not stranger-rapes; they’re sexual assaults being committed by a person that was known to the victim. Often it’s an intimate partner, a date, a close friend, or someone that they went to class/church/etc. with. If people you know aren’t safe, then how could you trust strangers?
Strangers are more statistically safe.
Also, most folks are horrible judges of character and intention. Scumbags are usually the most charming, outgoing, and well-liked people, and yet most people think the awkward weirdo in the corner bothering nobody is the ‘threat’.
I mean in that case No One Is Safe
No one with no witnesses, at least. And there’s the issue, isn’t it? It’s not, “would you rather be in a crowded bar with a mix of men and women, --or-- would you rather be in a crowded bar full of bears”.
Yeah, I think that’s the point. If you feel unsafe long enough you become willing to risk the bear. At least it’s a different danger.
I know more than one of these men that women would rather not take a chance with… The JR/AT/JP/TradWife/dudebro types. When I asked my girlfriend about the choices, she chose ‘bear’ immediately, and specifically called out someone we knew, saying, “Would YOU want me to encounter <dudebro> in the forest if I didn’t know him?” And she was right – I’d prefer she choose the bear…
And that’s tragically fucking sad that someone I know is so far down the ‘dudebro’ rabbit hole that I wouldn’t leave my GF alone with him in a compromised position.
Locker rooms have taught me a sizeable percent of men are literal monsters. Like maybe 1 in 10, if even a fraction of the shit I over hear is true.
As someone who has suffered heavy physical and verbal abuse [including threats of false rape and even an instance where she said she’d hurt herself and tell everyone including the police I was the one who did it to her] from a female for 3 years and has since developed severe mental and trauma issues from it, if I said:
“If I was given a choice to be stranded in the woods with either a bear or a woman, I would choose the bear, because the bear wouldn’t accuse me of raping it if I ignored it.”
How would you feel? See, I’ve said this before, and I just got downvoted to oblivion because guys can’t be abused! It’s discrimination against women! It’s sexist. How dare you not support women! It invalidates their feelings and experience with abuse! Statistically, its more likely to happen to females, so we’re more understanding with their situations! HOWEVER, these same people are 100% all in on dogpiling any male with the audacity to say, “This is offensive. Not all men are like that!”, and they’re all too happy and eager to invalidate male experiences simply because it’s “Not as common.”
Which makes it pretty obvious at this point, to me at least, that comments like this stupid “bear” comment serve only one purpose: to shit on men, simply to shit in them. It’s MISANDRY but nobody wants to talk about it, because fuck men, we don’t deserve support, we don’t deserve validation and we don’t deserve any rights. As men, we are BIG and STRONG and TOUGH and SCARY. How DARE we want to be met equally when it comes to being abused. Just shake it off!
And there they are. The downvotes. Thanks for literally proving my point, folks.
“If I was given a choice to be stranded in the woods with either a bear or a woman, I would choose the bear, because the bear wouldn’t accuse me of raping it if I ignored it.”
Seem like you are actually in a place to understand from your own experience what women are trying to communicate with that whole bear thing. Next step would be to try to have an empathic connection instead of a defensive one. The anger and frustration are not directed at you as an individual but are an expression of experiences, those nuances are often lost in online, non personal communication. What helps is to have more personal communication, better in an offline environment.
I also have a similar experience, I was mugged at knife point and spit on by two adolescents. After that I was jumpy around groups of teens.
That said , I do not think my fear of teens was rational, neither was it healthy. Only a small minority of teens will mug people. Fearing a whole group for the actions of the few is in human nature, but it is something we must fight against.
I mean what is the end goal if women are in fear of men ? You can probably reduce violent crime even more, but it remains a rare event. Only 31 out of 1000 people were victims of a violent crime in the UK in 2010. If that doesn’t work, what remains? Sex segregation ?
So you think it will help to just tell folks to not be afraid? How did you overcame your fear? What if similar experiences happened to your and your friends more than once?
On personal level, in my experience it’s best to validate someones emotions and then help them work through them if they wish so and are ready. On societal level it’s another question on how to teach people more empathy and to respect for others - and at least in my opinion we already came quite a way.
Preach brother, preach
It’s a hill I will fucking die on.
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What you write resonates with how I feel too. It’s not fair, is it? I think there’s a discussion that must happen, in the future. But right now, it’s too inflamed, it’s not possible. Then the question is, how do we get there? Can we get there without losing ourselves?
The solution to this problem is to be ‘better than average’ and bring up the average by leading by example.
Hear hear
You hate the “man or bear” conversation. Imagine how much women must hate it, knowing that you and other “good men” will bemoan their feelings as soon as they express them. Think about how chilling that is to their concerns; how they have to walk on eggshells even around “good men” when they want voice legitimate concerns.
You know who won’t get offended? The bear.
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Bears are omnivores and mostly eat plants/seeds/berries. https://www.bearsmart.com/about-bears/food-diet/
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Few bears hunt mammals (but we’ve all seen photos of them hunting fish) but when they do, they hunt young deer/elk/moose, and are more likely to scavenge winter kills or fresh kills made by others (wolves/big cats/etc.).
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If you were a person you’d be allowed to be upset. But you’re a man, men aren’t people. They don’t have feelings, only women do.
How about being better and validating others persons feelings instead of cheap sarcasm?
Dude, get some therapy. The world isn’t as harsh and bleak as you imply, and if your life experience hasn’t already shown you that, you need to stop throwing yourself a pity party and start working on getting better so you can enjoy your life.
My life experience has show me people would rather scream and insult others than recognize and validate experiences and opinions that differ from theirs.
case in point, your comment.
You’ve got 25 downvotes. Take the hint: Your ‘hot take’ is crap, and you should work on getting better.
All men have had shitty things happen to them. All of us have been treated unfairly. How we pick ourselves up and dust ourselves off matters.
If men were a minority group, this would lead to calls for the male community to police itself and report suspicious behaviour to the authorities.
I don’t quite know if I understand your comment.
By ‘this’ do you mean the meme, the response to the meme, or do you mean the number of SA cases done by men?
Are you drawing parallels to cities calling upon minority communities to police themselves and report suspicious behavior to try and ‘solve gang violence’?
women aren’t a minority.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_group
In terms of sociology, economics, and politics, a demographic that takes up the smallest fraction of the population is not necessarily labelled the “minority” if it wields dominant power. In the academic context, the terms “minority” and “majority” are used in terms of hierarchical power structures.
This is why I like the term “marginalised group.” But maybe it has its own definition that I’m not using correctly or something
Bluntly, I wouldn’t want to have some lady I’ve never met, trapped in the forest with me either. Not because I’m a bad person, far from it.
I feel like I’d be rather handy if I was lost in a forest, but she wouldn’t know that.
Fact is, any lady weighing in on the discussion doesn’t have any reasonable guarantee or even a reasonable probability of getting someone half as helpful as me, and a nontrivial chance of getting a date rapist, so I get it. The worst that a bear would do is kill and eat them, and if they’re lucky, it’ll happen in that order. There are fates worse than death.
I don’t take any offense at someone answering “bear”. At all. It’s an age old question, of the devil that you know, versus the devil that you don’t. Sure, there’s a non-zero chance you’ll end up in the woods with bear grylls (or someone with a similar skillset), or Mr. Rogers (or similarly kind person), but the far more likely scenario is not that.
It’s not a statement against me personally as a male, it’s a statement about the average man. If that offends you, there’s a good chance that you’re part of the problem.
I’m not here to judge. So I’ll let you decide for yourself.
The fact is, unknown men is basically a gamble most aren’t willing to make. What can we do about it? Probably somewhere between Jack and squat. Unless we can “fix” the socially inept and creepy men, as well as the rapists, would-be (opportunistic) rapists, date rapists, and just all around shitty men, pretty much all at once, this stereotype isn’t going anywhere. Just be the change you want to see in the world, and try to encourage your brothers to be better.
As one commenter stated perfectly well, the problem with “man or bear” posts is that in subtext it introduces the hostility and division towards men.
It’s not just women discussing their fears, it’s women signaling “men are more dangerous than bears”.
And this rightfully insults and angers many men, as it is a direct attack based on a wide immutable identity that omits any nuance.
Such posts do not promote any understanding of the situation, do not explore any root causes, and, from what I’ve gathered, comment threads are full of people telling men to shut up, either because “it’s not about them” or because “women’s safety are more important than men’s feelings” (as if those posts promote women safety).
This is not alright.
