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- cross-posted to:
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cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/19466667
Money, Mods, and Mayhem
The Turning Point
In 2024, Reddit is a far cry from its scrappy startup roots. With over 430 million monthly active users and more than 100,000 active communities, it’s a social media giant. But with great power comes great responsibility, and Reddit is learning this lesson the hard way.
The turning point came in June 2023 when Reddit announced changes to its API pricing. For the uninitiated, API stands for Application Programming Interface, and it’s basically the secret sauce that allows third-party apps to interact with Reddit. The new pricing model threatened to kill off popular third-party apps like Apollo, whose developer Christian Selig didn’t mince words: “Reddit’s API changes are not just unfair, they’re unsustainable for third-party apps.”
Over 8,000 subreddits went dark in protest.
The blackout should have reminded Reddit’s overlords of a crucial fact: Reddit’s success was built on the backs of its users. The platform had cultivated a sense of ownership among its community, and now that community was biting back.
One moderator summed it up perfectly: “We’re the ones who keep this site running, and we’re being ignored.”
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Wow, out of a total revenue of $281 million $193 million goes to a single person? Holy shit. What a selfish asshole you have to be to disregard all of your employees and take such a huge cut for yourself.
Spez is the unnecessary overhead that creates extra work for the workers
Nah, that’s mostly stock options, so it doesn’t come out of the revenue. His cash salary was only a couple hundred thousand.
It’s probably better from a tax point of view. Plus he’s planning to cash out big on his own IPO, so he prefers the stock.
You should look up the absurd pay structure of Musk at Tesla or how at Facebook, despite it being a publicly traded company, Zuckerberg literally cannot be fired.
The reason tech tends to chase stupid trends like AI is that there really aren’t that many people in charge of the whole place. They all know each other; they’re all buddies. And they all chase the same stupid fads together.
It’s actually insane. I’m not built for corporate jobs but goddamn I have no idea how anyone would want to work for such a company.
It’s a sign. Spez will now milk the company and make himself billionaires for the next few years, then sell the company for tens of billions, and new owner will run it into the ground, milking whatever left of it. Then it will become the blandest, soulless socmed.
Sounds like a job for Elon Musk.
Please let this happen.
No one can ruin a company quite like him.
Or sell it to Trump Media Group.
TBH that would ddos lemmy with new users, lol.
lots of lemmy servers :)
Basically paid that twat 200 mil to kill the site.
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Best thing to ever happen on reddit is the guy that posted on askreddit how to set the site language back to English because he accidentally set it to Spanish… and everyone posted their replies only in Spanish.
That was peak reddit.
Thank you! God the official site is so bad.
yw :)
“Test Post, Please Ignore,” and that guy who took increasingly elaborate pictures of himself taking the previous picture of his camera were high points for me.
that guy who took increasingly elaborate pictures of himself taking the previous picture of his camera
This one: https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/cmwov/hey_reddit_what_tattoos_do_you_have/c0tpyls/
Make sure to click
[+][deleted] 14 years ago (156 children)to get even more.
Holy smokes. Beautiful
I remember Reddit helping to make a kid do his homework.
I got rickrolled by Firefox built in translation.
holy fucking shit that’s awesome
They banned bots from WholesomeMemes and there were no posts for 2 days. Dead Internet is now, and it’s at Reddit.
Let’s be honest, most of Reddit’s default subreddits (or whatever the fuck they’re called now) are basically just karma farms with no real moderation beyond removing extreme content. The real value of Reddit has always been in its smaller, niche subs. But as those grow in popularity, they end up having the same problems as bigger subs.
That subreddit always seemed so off-putting to me and now I know why. I don’t hate wholesome stuff, but there was just something off about that subreddit that I couldn’t put my finger on.
I think that this article is accurate and sensible.
There’s a point that I’d like to add, that the author doesn’t mention: user trust.
The main value of an online platform is the user trust, as it dictates the users’ willingness to help building it instead of vandalising it. In Reddit’s case it means people writing well-thought posts, moderating communities, reporting content, using the voting system, etc.
And user trust is violated every time that a platform takes user-hostile decisions. Like Reddit has been taking for almost a decade; with 2023’s APIcalypse being a big example of that, but only one among many.
And when user trust is violated, it’s almost impossible to come back. John Bull explains this well, with the Trust Thermocline; but the basic idea is that those violations pile up invisibly upon a certain point, when they suddenly become a big deal and the platform bleeds users like there’s no tomorrow. And once it reaches that point it’s practically impossible to come back.
So perhaps we aren’t watching Reddit die. Nor we will, in the future - because Reddit is already dead. What we’re watching instead, with morbid curiosity, is a headless chicken running around, while we place some bets on when it will stop moving - so venture capital can have its dinner.
So perhaps we aren’t watching Reddit die. Nor we will, in the future - because Reddit is already dead. What we’re watching instead, with morbid curiosity, is a headless chicken running around, while we place some bets on when it will stop moving - so venture capital can have its dinner.
Well put
And also because the only other place my niche interests have communities is discord
And AI. AI is a wet dream to a company like Reddit, Facebook, or Twitter. They can keep the appearance of an active and popular site indefinitely, stealing money from advertisers years before they catch on.
Wrote something similar 1 year ago 😁
I remember reading your text back then. It’s great, and it shows something that neither the article in the OP nor my comment show - the role of network effect in the process.
That das a nice read, but the site is weird to read on mobile i had to switch to the desktop mode lol
Very well said, and it was the trust violation which finally pushed me off of Facebook and Reddit. Reddit as we know it is dead, it’s obvious to anyone who used to use it. But AI is here, and it’s going to continue pumping semi-believable posts and replies for years, making it look as if the site is still booming. But the posts are vapid, devoid of soul, and almost always written with an ulterior motive to sell something or some idea. The Dead Internet is here.
Yeah that’s my main problem with the article, it argues “as if” it was all but inevitable. As if something could be done. As soon as you have for profit motivation of social media, it’s all but inevitable that enshittification ensues. That obscures the real problem.
You want a website that is run non-profit for users and somewhat democratically. But they shy away from that conclusion.
Reddit could’ve become a non-profit for users, financed by them. So the outcome was avoidable, at least years and years in the past.
But for that Pigboy and kn0thing would need to give up the pretension of drinking champagne in an IPO. kn0thing gave up too late; Pigboy never did.
A good “dividing line” where the outcome became fixed was the introduction of Reddit Gold.
Also, I think the unaccountable moderators really are a problem. You end up with major subs like r/politics or /worldnews getting camped by people who just happened to get there first, and then being forever unaccountable for bias or stupidity. And then you get sitewide bans if you subvert the bans from the tinpot dictators camping on what should be community-led spaces.
Yeah. Worst offender is r/climatechange which is still moderated by a “both sides” climate skeptic. It’s practically aiding genocide / omnicide.
Unfortunately lemmy doesn’t have good solution to fracturing and default instances either.
My favorite of the protests was DnDmemes becoming a goblin porn subreddit, and the final reply of the main mod “I shitposted me way in here, I’ll shitpost my way out”. That and demanding a d20 roll for persuasion(?) from the admins
I liked pics becoming nothing but sexy pictures of John Oliver, with the notice that all pictures of John Oliver are sexy pictures of John Oliver.
And Spez’s response?
“OMG! STOP GOING DARK OR I AND MY LEGION OF SLIME ADMINS WILL REMOVE YOU FROM POWAH!”
And so he did which is why some subreddits came back from being dark. Some subreddits submitted to their own fates. Other subreddits reluctantly came back, proving the protest was just a mere farce that amounted to a nothingburger.
And what did Spez do after the whole fiasco? Why, he punched Reddit into now being Public. Completing what people had long speculated that he’d do.
And what did Spez do after that? He’s now rolling out the concept that Subreddits will be monetized.
Spez has ultimately learned nothing from these incidents and expects it to get better, with that stupid shit eating grin on his face because he huffs and breathes in all of Musk’s farts.
he huffs and breathes in all of Musk’s farts
This is comedic gold. But the bad part? I envisioned it. Thanks a lot.
And he’s getting rich off of it too. I mean, that’s his whole gain, right? Money! He’s given his soul for money. The whole community hates him, but at least he’s gotten rich now. I’m sure reddit’s annual founders parties must be a hoot.
What does he care if a bunch of people that he thinks are losers hate him? He’s sitting on his private yacht, anchored just off his private country club, and eating lobster in the hot tub. He’s a major world player now. He doesn’t give a fuck what reddit users think of him.
Spez has ultimately learned nothing
He’s learned he can do this shit and make money. It may not be a perpetual money machine. But he now has enough and will milk it for all that’s left. That’s what he’s learned.
Oh the irony getting removed by a mod here. Although its probably in the mod logs somewhere with an actual reason :)
actually it’s not … An admin banned OP (troll account). Seems that no record of comment exists. Kinda a bug in the Lemmy software where logs of banned accounts aren’t stored, or at least I don’t know how to see them.
What do you think he would learn? He got like $190 million dollars in compensation last year, broke the protest, and only lost a small fraction of users. He doesn’t view the site with the same love that we did. It’s just a business to him, and he’s just a soulless executive.
I’m trying to upvote as many Lemmy posts as I can find on the Reddit search function to hasten the demise of the pet project of Spez since the third party apps are up to snuff now!
I’m not sure if there is any way you can promote links to my account, but feel free:
https://www.reddit.com/user/FlyingSquid/
Your page has been bookmarked. Thank you for the idea of updating the display name to LEMMY IS BETTER.
Good idea!
Let’s hope more people will join the fediverse so we can all stop feeding our data to these greedy companies.
Tbh I doubt companies would stop scraping data. They wouldn’t care to respect the ToS (they never did) and feed in their AI models all the Lemmy posts and comments they can find. Still better than Reddit willfully selling these info
They still can’t game it for engagement optimization to that extreme, not like the closed loops of monolithic sites.
True. Let’s drive away from them as much as possible
You don’t think once Lemmy hits mainstream, companies won’t start polluting Lemmy and harvest data here?
As Lemmy users we always have the freedom to jump ship to a different Lemmy instance if the admins of the ones we’re on decide to sell the site out and/or let the polluters take over, or we can even start up our own Lemmy instance (with blackjack, etc.)
I like my transparency, third-party apps, community and open source nature of Lemmy.
I’m calling bullshit on any user count they release. The site was filled with bots even when I still used it. People kept complaining about “karma farmers” as if there were users who repost popular content. It has always been largely Reddit’s own bots too keep new users entertained and recycle popular content so that it reaches as many users as possible. They turned this up to 11 before going public.
Now that they no longer provide an API, they are free to make up any fake metric they want to try to pump up their worthless stock.
I’m very doubtful too. I look at “active users” stats, and for every sub at every time it never goes above a few hundreds.
The millions subs numbers are bs
One of the really popular subs - with hundreds of posts per day - cracked down on bots and nothing was posted for two days afterwards.
Can’t recall which sub it was,It was WholesomeMemes. I caught wind of that a few days later and it was truly a ghost town. Even now they’ve only got something like 5% of their pre-bot-ban traffic back - about 4-6 posts a day.People kept complaining about “karma farmers”
I remember the “Reddit is just you, me and /u/karmanaut” meme from 2008. He was the original “karma farmer”. It was a problem since the early days due to how they setup Reddit as a system. It just enforced his behaviour.
“Karma farmers” is a major reason Digg collapsed and Reddit took its place.
Fuck reddit …fuck the mods who abuse their power. Fuck the bots. Fuck the corporate greed bs. The admins have always been cool to me until I was perma ban. But kind of seem like nice folks.
Thank you for all your posts here
Same. I used reddit since 2008. I’ve had accounts with multiple posts to /bestof, with over 100k karma get banned. The things I’ve been banned for have always been trivial “zero tolerance policy” violations that remind me of the zero tolerance, zero thought policies you used to (still do?) see in American high schools. At least when I was in school, my school had a zero-tolerance policy for violence. A bully could attack a victim and both of them would be suspended for fighting. The administrators didn’t want to bother figuring out who was at fault, so they just punished victim and perpetrator equally.
On different accounts, I was banned from some of the largest subreddits that I had years of history of posting very high quality and well-regarded comments in. The biggest account I ever had was under the username “isleepinahammock.” You can still find links to now-deleted bestof posts through google. The things I’ve been banned from the big subreddits for include:
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On January 6th, as the capital was actively being breached, wondering aloud why this invasion wasn’t being responded to with soldiers and automatic weapons. (Historically how such mobs trying to overthrow governments are always dealt with. Later we learned that the reason those soldiers weren’t present was because Trump deliberately left the place unguarded.)
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As SCOTUS was considering its ruling on presidential immunity, stating that if SCOTUS rules the president has complete immunity and effectively be a dictator, Biden should simply drone strike Supreme Court justices until the ruling is reversed. (Later news articles and opinion pieces proposing this exact kind of thing were openly promoted to the top of r/politics.)
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Flippantly telling an overt bigot, commenting in one of the LGBT subreddits, to “go die in a fire.”
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Making pro-Palestinian comments in r/worldnews.
Never did I ever threaten anyone. Never did I propose vigilante justice on anyone. Any mentions of violence were either obviously flippant remarks or suggestions of lawful and just use of government authority. But these comments violated the zero tolerance, zero thought policies of the major subreddits. I received bogus site site suspensions for these, which I ignored with alt accounts. Eventually I received a total IP ban for ban evasion.
I realize that reddit likes to claim to have a neutral hand. They say that moderators should be able to operate their subs as they please. But these major community subs aren’t some niche community. If you want to create r/rightwingworldnews, go ahead, but the main worldnews section for the biggest discussion site on the net should not be run by a bunch of radical Israeli supremacists. r/politics, the main political discussion forum, should not apply a harsher standard to their commenters than they do the standards they apply to the very stories they feature. And there should be a meaningful appeals process to actually get access restored to individual subreddits and the site as a whole.
If they actually cared about quality content, they would do this. But this takes care and thought. And if all you’re trying to do is juice ad revenue, your number one priority is to make the site as clean and sanitary as possible. If all you care about is maxing ad revenue, then having a zero-tolerance, zero-thought policy of “any mention of an act of violence in any context = ban,” makes sense. Even though in some cases, such a nation’s capital literally being stormed by an invading rebel army, violence IS the correct response.
I don’t know if you saw images of what the capital looked like a few weeks after January 6th on Biden’s actual inauguration day, but the capital was a damn fortress. If those fuckers had tried to storm the capital again on that day, it would have been a blood bath. And you know what? I would absolutely support the military opening up machine guns on any violent mob trying to overthrow our democracy. The moment you choose violence, you deserve to be responded to in turn with violence. You do that? Well you’ve made your choice. I have no sympathy for you. And zero-tolerance, zero-thought moderation policies prevent us from talking about these harsh realities. Sometimes violence IS the answer. Sometimes democracy DOES need to be defended with force. But we cannot discuss these harsh realities on the main political page of the biggest discussion site on the net, just to keep the place clean for advertisers.
Oh, and one more reason I was once banned from r/politics? Someone posted a doomer comment saying something to the effect of, “how can we possibly deal with MAGA terrorists? What if they lose the next election and just start an open rebellion? It’s hopeless! We might as well give up now.” I responded with the obvious and correct statement. Something to the effect of, “what do we do if armed revolutionaries enter open rebellion against the government? We shoot them. We send in the military and we shoot them. That is what you are SUPPOSED to do to people who take up arms against a just and legitimately elected government. It’s that whole ‘enemies foreign and domestic’ thing that soldiers swear to enforce.” I was literally banned for suggesting the very thing every US soldier swears an oath to do if necessary.
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they’ll be fine. as evidenced by twitter, there is absolutely no amount of enshittification that will make some people leave
Hasn’t Twitter lost ~30 million active users, about 10%, since Musk bought it? Plus there’s probably going to be a couple million more gone from the Brazil ban.
I’m also willing to bet a ton of the remainder are bot or alt accounts for people too.
My girlfriend doesn’t use Twitter but the platforms she does use she has multiple accounts on and I bet a lot of people do that too.
Musk himself said there are way more bots than he thought when he was trying to weasel out of buying the site. That was before AI that could solve recaptchas, and respond like a human. Imagine how many bots there are now.
Reminds me of the handful of big subs on reddit who had no new posts for days when they banned bots lul.
i guess you dont remember digg https://d3.harvard.edu/platform-digit/submission/the-demise-of-digg-how-an-online-giant-lost-control-of-the-digital-crowd/
Fuck, I remember Yahoo.
It was never cool but in the stone age it was hip for about 30 minutes.
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I wish my old angelfire site was still around…
Neocities is now, old man!
I missed digg. I was on fark before reddit and somehow fark is still around and hasn’t changed at all
Slashdot is still kicking around too. Remember the Slashdot effect?
Yeah I remember when cmdrtaco was in charge. It was great back then. Now it’s full of anti woke stuff.
Yup. I walked the whole path. Slashdot->digg->reddit->now lemmy I guess.
Weirdly enough, I never cared for Yahoo. Back in the late 90s, their homepage was a cluttered mess
Always but for a few minutes there it was the only niftily human-curated view of “The Internet”.
Interesting, I never used digg and didn’t know about it’s history. It seems like they could have easily fought back bots with captchas, email verification, phone verification and so on.
Phone verification? In 2010? Only 20% of US citizens had a smartphone in 2010. That kind of verification was extremely rare at the time. Privacy was still very much a thing, sites that requested personal data like that was regarded with suspicion.
I mean phone number verification like steam does. It’s only one of many possibilities when you are a major company.
That only works when there’s competition. There’s like 5 sites left on the Internet. It’s been centralized and monopolized.
Digg era is very different than today. Peak user for Digg is 30million, while Reddit and Twitter is 330million and 368million respectively, almost 10 times the different. As demonstrated by Twitter, even in its worst form they only lose like 30million user. Reddit won’t go anywhere, the vibe though, will.
I keep seeing YouTubers who host their own subreddits still mentioning Reddit a lot in their videos. Yeah, some people probably don’t even care what happened.
A big streamer I watch is sorta in that camp. He mentions his subreddit all the time and it’s an active part of stream/communication with chat, he bitches at reddit and it’s broader base all the time but I see no signs of moving away from it.
That’s because there will alway be new 10-year-olds who are just discovering “new” parts of the Internet. They are growing up with the enshittification, so they don’t know that things were better before they were born.
Reddit’s strength has always been its community
There’s something nobody talks about much when it comes to reddit. It’s that the internet has moved past community. It now revolves around monetized “influencers”. Nobody fosters community for the sake of it anymore.
Reddit has outlived its time. It’s apparent they’ve been trying to evolve with the times but the platform isn’t fundamentally geared towards this coporatized era of the internet. They’ve been trying to pivot the platform into social media style. Users now have profiles with avatars, bio text, followers/subscribers. There’s now a social graph. The big picture with these things is they’re trying to make it into a corporatized social platform like all the rest.
The problem isn’t reddit itself. It’s the internet that isn’t geared towards community anymore.
Maybe the problem is that they’re all trying to be the same goddamned thing, like how there are 15 or more goddamned hamburger chains.
“We want to be like facebook! Also like Youtube and twitter and tiktok! And like Instagram!”
Maybe if they stuck to their speciality and strengths, pick a lane and stay in it, they would prosper. But no! God forbid!
It’s the internet that isn’t geared towards community anymore.
It’s more like people aren’t geared to community, not the internet.
I very strongly disagree. It may appear that way, but community is simply less profitable than “influencers”, so communities aren’t invested in. Social media and even following influencers/content creators is an example of people looking for community, just not having healthy communities to pick from.
That’s not the internets fault though. That’s a people fault.
People aren’t willing to support the communities they want so they don’t get them as people find other ways to finance them.
People are geared to community. Modern society isn’t.
That sounds more appropriate ya
And now they’re teeming with bots* and drove away the power users. Look how many posts and comments they’ve lost in the last year just from me alone.
Edit:
The beauty of Reddit was its decentralized structure.
Users created and moderated their own communities with freedom and autonomy, and it led to an explosion of niche interests and discussions. Want to debate the finer points of medieval weaponry? There’s a subreddit for that. Obsessed with pictures of birds with human arms photoshopped onto them? Yep, there’s a subreddit for that too.Took a bit but I’m glad we found the actual decentralized structure we needed
I remember when they kicked mods off their platform when the subreddits went private on the API retaliation. Now quite a few are on here. Meanwhile, some of those subreddits are still having issues moderating.
Personally I think mods should be rotated once in a while by the community instead of giving power to them indefinitely on communities. But reddit really messed up there. Some mods are mods of hundreds of subreddits which is silly and unsustainable.
It’s such a mess. I mean spez is an ass, but some of those career mods were just as bad. Moderating hundreds of subs because they enjoy the power. And you can tell that was the case when they’d harass random people because they did some little thing that upset them.
Yep. If they were periodically replaced, then the communities might have a better mod (or at least a less burnt out one).
Could moderation be handled democratically with votes and such? Create a system with central authority and you’ll just get people trying to be the central authority.
You end up with the problem of Who Watches The Watchmen all the way down in infinite layers. We don’t really have an inherently trusted party here that could arbitrate a vote. Unless you try to do something funky with blockchain, but I couldn’t tell you about that, that isn’t one of my spell schools.
It gives me great joy to be reading this via Boost.
Will Reddit seize this opportunity? Or will it continue down its current path of self-destruction?
HAHAhahahaha
