Nobody expects Kamala to solve it. They do expect her to stop supporting genocide.
Trump would be a disaster for the middle east. He wouldn’t even be good for Israel. Sure, he’d support Israel now, but Trump loves strongman leaders, and there are plenty of them in the middle east, so he’d love Netanyahu, but he’d probably also cozy up to any other regional strongmen and destabilize things even more.
But, the Biden/Harris admin has been effectively sponsoring the genocide by giving military aid to Israel. It’s clear that Israel is the biggest military power in the region, and it has been for decades. It has no need for military aid. The best way to help civilians is to make Israel afraid to piss off its neighbors. Right now it’s convinced it could beat them in any war, so it’s happy to grind the Palestinians into dust, daring Iran, Egypt, etc. to interfere.
Yes, it’s a complex geopolitical issue, and an all-out regional war would put many more civilians in danger, not just the Palestinians. But, giving military aid to Israel while they engage in genocide isn’t a good way to prevent a regional war.
Even if you’re a single-issue voter who doesn’t care about women’s reproductive health, doesn’t care about the rule of law, doesn’t care about free speech, doesn’t care about corruption, and is only 100% focused on the fate of Palestinians, even then you should be voting for Harris. Even if you don’t like her policies, there’s still a slight chance she’d listen to reason once elected. Trump would be an utter disaster.
They know.
make Israel afraid to piss off it’s neighbors
Yes, but have you considered that those neighbors are Muslims?
Yeah this place is definitely just like, getting canvassed hardcore. big rip
I was banned from r/LateStageCapitalism for politely supporting a post with this reasoning. I pointed out that Trump would make the conflict even worse for innocents, and voting third-party to make a statement against neoliberal Democrat rule (which is bad) is a position that, in this moment, only the least-vulnerable in America can take when there is a risk of outright christo-fascism threatening the least-enfranchised.
Banned. “This is a socialist sub.” Proceeded to see a post from a mod openly mocking anyone who entertained lesser-of-two-evils arguments; they sounded like a sneering teenager. Over there, it’s all theory and no parsing of theory with reality.
Nice to see r/LateStageCapitalism is still letting tankies run off allies.
Yeah. I have all that garbage filtered from my feed and advise others to as well.
Here’s the Socialist argument for Harris.
Ho Chi Minh would have know all about America’s long history of slavery and genocide.
Ho helped the American OSS run missions in Vietnam during WW2.
Your allies don’t have to be perfect.
The majority of people want an end to the Unconditional Military Support of Israel. That is the requirement for the US to abide by US and International Humanitarian Law as well. It’s not that complicated. You can’t say you want to support civilians on both sides when you provide one side with the weapons used to commit genocide against the other unconditionally.
The argument for people who are anti-genocide to vote Harris, is that Trump will not only be much worse than the current administration, but will not be able to be swayed by public pressure in the same way Harris might be. The harm reduction argument is true for domestic policies, but is meaningless for foreign policy when the current administration is assisting Genocide.
Harris is significantly more likely to be pressured to change course from public pressure than Trump, that is the right argument for getting people who are anti-genocide to vote Harris despite the current administration’s policy. Because the fight doesn’t end after the election, but the fight will be much more difficult under a Trump administration.
Why so much Occasional Capitalization of Random Words?
It’s the polite way to emphasize words. But also in ideological discussions there’s just so many nouns.
If YoU AgReE wItH ThIs MeMe iTs BeCauSe YoU aRe SoOoOO CoNsErVaTiVe. AlSo, bOtH sIdEs
Ps YoU aRe AlSo aN iMpUrE sHiTlIb
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This is extremely misleading. Fuck Trump 10000 times and kamala is the only sane choice, but stop trying to paint over reality to try and make her look like she’s not just a lesser evil.
She didn’t just “not promise to solve 1000 year conflict” (which the genocide has been going on for the last 75 years),
she did promise to continue funding genocide with American taxpayer dollars. (Of which the US has been giving and average of $5 billion in tax dollars and weapons to Isreal per year for the last 75 years, since they first invaded Palestine).
We are voting for her because she is the lesser evil. We don’t have to be happy about it or stop criticizing her on her bad policies.
Basically: Vote for Harris, but also fuck her for vowing to continue funding genocide. Trump would also keep funding genocide, and he’d also destroy what’s left of the west, on top of every other obvious reason he should never be in power again (and never should have been).
Right wing morons and shills can’t exactly base their arguments on how much better Republicans are, so they come at it sideways with this bullshit.
Well, jokes on them because “the left” isn’t made up of complete morons like they have in the MAGA movement. Despite neoliberal whining to the contrary, the left has been consistently the most reliable voting demographic the Democrats have, and that’s despite the fact that the establishment shits on us at every opportunity.
OP consistently makes posts that only divide the Dem base.
Considering they started out with AI posts lying about early voting, I guess it’s an improvement?
vote third party IMHO
fuck the two party regime that got us cornered here. vote for either party is providing genocide legitimacy.
Sounds good on paper or if not on battleground state. I remember people pissed at DNC in 2016 got us Trump the first time.
I remember people pissed at DNC in 2016 got us Trump the first time.
Other people would blame Clinton’s campaign for refusing to move to the left to get more votes.
They had a very “vote for me or fuck you” approach, much like OP’s meme.
But when looking at exit polling, progressives showed up and voted D like we always do. Clinton lost by slim margins in a couple of important battleground states she mostly ignored.
And I’m not saying all that to bring up old wounds, it’s because Hillary’s people became Bidens people who became Kamala’s.
They’re still the ones making these policy decisions that are wildly unpopular.
They shouldn’t be in charge still, but they are.
Technically running the least popular candidate in history while simultaneously pied pipering the most dangerous candidate in history was not perpetrated by “people pissed at DNC”.
Blame the voters for consistently snatching defeat from the jaws of victory is a core tenet of Dem strategy, and of liberalism for that matter.
And voting third party is saying “I don’t care whether we get a bit of genocide or a lot of genocide,” which itself is legitimizing genocide.
“Harm reduction” is not in the vocabulary of these internet addicted “intellectuals”.
Keep in mind that most of them (like OP) are right wing agitators trying to drive a wedge.
While I agree this is definitely a big issue, most of my friends are various leftists. There is a clear line where the white, straight, cis, financially secure, and healthy ones are, or were, definitely of this mind. Though, in my case, few of them are still this way, after years of discourse with everyone else, who don’t have the privilege of not having to vote DNC, lest our lives become quantifiably more dangerous.
Nor are things like “strategic voting.” It’s really unfortunate
No people know what it means to pick the less disgusting turd out of the bowl. They’re just tired of eating shit for “strategic reasons”.
Am I the only one who just realized that these people who are so tired are usually just kids who’ve voted in at most two elections and didn’t even participate in the primaries or local elections?
If y’all put half the energy into being consistent voters that ya did in bitching about “having to” once in a blue moon when you’re dragged by the hair to the polls first.
This has “I don’t care about your principles, lick the boot bigot” energy.
Kinda gave the game away by admitting you get called bigot enough to be seen as a generic NPC complaint to you
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They are doing the same amount of genocide
Try to make your point without spouting misinformation.
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In the above comment, we see the following items directly out of the alt-right playbook:
- Never play defense (doesn’t provide backing for their statement, because they can’t, and instead just tries something else)
- Control the conversation (spins things and tries to change the subject)
- Ship of Theseus (changes fundamental things about their argument without admitting it)
Why is @[email protected] using the alt-right playbook for their online argumentation? I’ll leave that up to the reader.
I played defense, I never changed the subject, and never changed the fundamentals of the argument. You made the baseless claim that Trump would be far worse for the Palestinian people, while Biden has given Israel everything and then some, without backing it up. You can’t actually answer my point so you slander me as alt-right despite advocating for Marxism.
😂 You see, the socialists are the real fascists. Ian Danskin would be horrified to see this perversion of his work.
Genocide is happening either way. Only option for american peasant is to go into opposition to the two party regime.
Someone who’d go as far as calling them the “American Peasant” probably doesn’t know enough about their interests to be talking at them about what their interests as a class are.
Voting 3rd party in this election isn’t the grand protest against the 2 party system you think it is.
Organize. Build a coalition. Those are great things to do to oppose the regime.
Voting third party or not voting aren’t opposing the regime. They’re telling the regime “I don’t care whether you’re a little bit evil or very evil.” Harm reduction comes by voting for the lesser evil in the ballot box. Opposing the regime comes in actually building a coalition for less evil, not advocating for actions that’ll make the more evil option more likely.
Voting 3rd party for progressivism is the biggest self own in history. We could have had Gore, but nooo.
Behind every upset conservative victory, there was a progressive who insisted they shouldn’t have to be voting for the lesser of two evils.
- There are two choices in the United States 2024 election. No third party stands a ghost of a chance of winning. No, not even if the 30,000 people you can reach on Lemmy all vote for Timothy Greenparty.
- A Trump victory in 2024 would not only be just as bad if not worse for the citizens of Gaza than Harris would, but also pose an existential threat to a large number of vulnerable Americans (trans people, immigrants, women seeking abortions).
- Given the margins of victory in 2016 and 2020, Kamala might not win if leftists don’t vote for her.
- Snoozing fascism for four years is better than inviting it through the door now, and buys us time to build our defenses for when it comes back.
I’d like to focus my counterargument. Which of these statements do you disagree with?
I don’t care if either regime whore wins, either one is L for me.
Y’all keep trying to do this left/right american politics bullshit, which inherently enablers the regime.
They’re both identical, right?
They serve the same function within the regime. But sure one is funded by Exxon and another one microsoft, so they are different in that way.
“Dude look at how stupid you look in this strawman I made of you!”
Straight out of the republican playbook. Might as well use “Chad and crying soyjack”.
First and foremost, this isn’t a 1000 year war. It’s a bit over 100 years at most. The colonization of Palestine started around 100 years ago. Israel was founded in 1948.
Secondly, Kamala isn’t working towards achieving shit. Her government is literally still sending weapons to Israel as Israel is shooting at UN peacekeepers, burning people alive, attacking five different countries, and much more worse.
The jews had been subjugated by the ottomans well before the 1900s, even after as well. The 29 massacure sucessfully genocided (formal definition) The Jewish population that had lived in that city for literally 1000s of years. There are no Jews left in Hebron, despite being 15% of its population in the 20s.
Denying this shit has been going on for a 1000 years denies history.
The jews are not Israel but Israel definitely wants people to keep conflating them that way.
and the palestinians are not the ottomans, for that matter
No, but there were Jews in that area. And even more Jews all over the peninsula.
How many of them were Israeli?
They were Old Yishv, they were part of the foundation of Israel.
Are they the same as the Yishuv who collaborated with the Nazis?
Jews are not Israelis, and the Ottomans are not Palestinians. Conflating these things is an important part of how the Zionist entity justifies itself.
Also, the 29 “massacre” killed and wounded less than a hundred people. It was part of a larger wave of violence that killed over a hundred Jews, but also killed over a hundred Arabs, and the Jews in Hebron were taken out of the area by the British, not driven out by the violence. Conflating these sparse and disorganized religious riots with the massive and highly organized ethnic cleansing that took place in 48 is a politically-motivated lie perpetuated by Zionists to insist that their claim to the land they’ve stolen is anything but fraudulent.
I agree. Those who care about Palestine should vote for Kamala because Trump is fully pro-genocide; but implying that Kamala has a valid plan, or even an existing plan, to help Palestinians, is untrue. She’s going to do nothing or as little as possible.
The choice is between evil and more of the same, it’s not between good and evil.
Who transcribed this? Seriously, people…
The comment section for this type of posts is always such a shit show.
This is essentially saying 2 things:
1 - It’s insane that some here seem to think that to remain “independent” of politics you can abstain or vote third party to show your discontent for how slowly the Dems deal with Natenyahu’s BS. Your abstain or 3rd party vote does nothing to “move the Dems to the left” when in reality you are removing them from power to give it to Trump, who has already promised to triple down on helping Netanyahu achieve whatever he wants.
The election is happening right now. There’s no time and space to negotiate new candidates or parties. It’s either the disappointing Dems, or the christo-fascist GOP. The time for standing on principle was 3 years ago, or next year at the start of the new cycle. Today is about pragmatism - how close we can get to the desired outcome, and which of these parties is more interested in listening to your position moving forward. It should be abundantly clear that Harris is by a huge margin the better choice for your desired outcomes.
2 - The Israel operation in Gaza, that we all want to stop, is not something that can be just ended with the click of a button. A bunch of actors in that region are hell bent on killing each other, like when Hamas did genocide on Israel last year, and now we have multiple state actors moving armies against each other. The brain-dead premise that somehow Democrats “want genocide” makes it impossible to have a serious conversation.
If you don’t vote for Harris over a mess in the Middle East that we didn’t directly create and are not directly responsible for, and that the Biden administration is trying to solve even if it’s too slow for your taste; and instead you act in favor of helping Trump who will absolutely empower Netanyahu to do whatever he wants, then not only are you directly voting against your own interests, but you are engaging in a level of dumb-fuckery of supreme proportions. And fucking all of us over hard while at it.
In short: By opposing Harris right at the finish line of the election cycle, you are going to inflict Trump’s dictator regime and the runaway christo-fascist GOP on the entire planet, because you are dissatisfied with how mediocre Dems have been at trying to stop Israel. You think this makes you virtuous. It does not.
I think most third party voters just assume Dems want to earn their vote. They don’t. They want to earn the vote of undecided people, and republicans that are still somewhat open to another side. It’s the whole reason the Dems are as center-right as they are.
They won’t see people voting third party and go “Oh my god, we need to get these further-left-than-us voters to agree with us!” They’ll go, “We need to pull moderate voters in the swing states that actually dictate our elections over to our side, not only giving us a vote, but negating a vote for Trump too!”
History has proven this time and time again. When faced with a loss, the Dems will always look towards the center to gain voters. Because like it or not, the left wing is heavily outnumbered by moderates who are more focused on their own lives than the intricacies of world and domestic politics.
I mostly agree with you, especially point (1), but what are you talking about with “Hamas did genocide on Isreal last year”? They did a terror attack for sure, but that’s not genocide. Wiping out significant percentage of a population because of their ethnicity or culture is genocide (see what Isreal is doing in Gaza) and it takes months to years.
Assuming it’s a difference in scale argument, but it’s hard to take the power dynamics out of the equation when rating “genocide”.
Only one faction currently has the means to actually perform an extermination. I don’t know if the “genocide of Israelis” sotuation would occur if the power dynamics were flipped, but that’s getting to hypotheticals and ignoring other circumstances of their unlawful occupation of Palestinian lands.
I don’t know if the “genocide of Israelis” sotuation would occur if the power dynamics were flipped
“Death to the Jews” doesn’t give you a clue?
There’s no good guys in this conflict except the civilians caught in the middle.
Very disingenuous, Palestinians are fighting against Zionism, not Judaism, which are two very different things. Israel has always been the obstacle for peace, because it is a Settler Colonialist Ethnostate founded on, and ever continuing, ethnic cleansing.
Settlements
Israel does justify the settlements and military bases in the West Bank in the name of Security. However, the reality of the settlements on-the-ground has been the cause of violent resistance and a significant obstacle to peace, as it has been for decades.
This type of settlement, where the native population gets ‘Transferred’ to make room for the settlers, is a long standing practice.
- See: The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948, the Transfer Committee, and the JNF which led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate before the Nakba
The mass ethnic cleansing campaign of 1948:
Further, declassified Israeli documents show that the Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip were deliberately planned before being executed in 1967:
While the peace process was exploited to continue de-facto annexation of the West Bank via Settlements
The settlements are maintained through a violent apartheid that routinely employs violence towards Palestinians and denies human rights like water access, civil rights, etc. This kind of control gives rise to violent resistance to the Apartheid occupation, jeopardizing the safety of Israeli civilians.
State violence – official and otherwise – is part and parcel of Israel’s apartheid regime, which aims to create a Jewish-only space between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. The regime treats land as a resource designed to serve the Jewish public, and accordingly uses it almost exclusively to develop and expand existing Jewish residential communities and to build new ones. At the same time, the regime fragments Palestinian space, dispossesses Palestinians of their land and relegates them to living in small, over-populated enclaves.
The apartheid regime is based on organized, systemic violence against Palestinians, which is carried out by numerous agents: the government, the military, the Civil Administration, the Supreme Court, the Israel Police, the Israel Security Agency, the Israel Prison Service, the Israel Nature and Parks Authority, and others. Settlers are another item on this list, and the state incorporates their violence into its own official acts of violence. Settler violence sometimes precedes instances of official violence by Israeli authorities, and at other times is incorporated into them. Like state violence, settler violence is organized, institutionalized, well-equipped and implemented in order to achieve a defined strategic goal.
One or Two State Solution
The settlements represent land-grabbing, and land-grabbing and peace-making don’t go together, it is one or the other. By its actions, if not always in its rhetoric, Israel has opted for land-grabbing and as we speak Israel is expanding settlements. So, Israel has been systematically destroying the basis for a viable Palestinian state and this is the declared objective of the Likud and Netanyahu who used to pretend to accept a two-state solution. In the lead up to the last election, he said there will be no Palestinian state on his watch. The expansion of settlements and the wall mean that there cannot be a viable Palestinian state with territorial contiguity. The most that the Palestinians can hope for is Bantustans, a series of enclaves surrounded by Israeli settlements and Israeli military bases.
- Avi Shlaim
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
One State Solution, Foreign Affairs
Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution
Hamas has already agreed to no longer govern the Gaza Strip, as long as Palestinians receive liberation and a unified government can take place.
Source
During the current war, Hamas officials have said that the group does not want to return to ruling Gaza and that it advocates for forming a government of technocrats to be agreed upon by the various Palestinian factions. That government would then prepare for elections in Gaza and the West Bank, with the intention of forming a unified government.
Hamas officials should be held accountable for all war crimes committed, same as all Israeli officials. That said, there are many parallels between the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising and Gaza.
In the Shadow of the Holocaust by Masha Gessen, the situation in Gaza is compared to the Warsaw Ghettos. The comparison was also made by a Palestinian poet who was later killed by an Israeli airstrike. Adi Callai, an Israeli, has also written on the parallels in his article The Gaza Ghetto Uprising and expanded upon in his corresponding video
What the hell is so hard to understand about “Death to the Jews”? It’s a pretty blunt statement. Doesn’t need context or whatever red herrings you’re throwing out.
There are a few reasons. Most importantly, that kind of conflation of Judaism and Zionism needs to be called out, regardless of who says it. That includes any members of Hamas or any Israelis who conflate them, intentional or not.
Secondly, trying to attribute a quote like that to an entire people, as an attempt to contextualize the Settler Colonialist violence of Israel towards Palestinians, is a terrible and disingenuous thing to do. It’s attempting to imply that Palestinians are fighting back out of some inherent Antisemitism, which is completely untrue, instead of fighting back against ethnic cleansing for their livelyhood.
Third, it’s important to recognize where this conflation is coming from. Israel intentionally does this conflation to deflect any criticism as simply antisemitism, which comes at the expense of a rise of genuine antisemitism as they then point to the actions of Israel as representing all Jewish people. Which is obviously untrue. When the IDF destroys your house and kills your family, and then says it’s in the name of all Jewish people, it becomes harder for those people to got their house destroyed to make that distinction between Judaism and Zionism. So it is equally important to condemn the conflation and understand the context behind it.
The 1988 Charter, which is unreasonable for wanting Sharia Law and belief in the antisemitic conspiracy theory of the Elder Protocols of Zion, does not call for the extermination of all Jewish People. Which is what I’m guessing you are trying to reference.
Hamas wants an end to Israel as an Apartheid State, not an extermination of all Israelis. Under Ahmed Yassin in the 1990’s, truces were offered in exchange for Israeli to withdrawal from Gaza and the West Bank to the 1967 borders. The 2017 Charter explicitly accepts a Two-State Solution of the 1967 Borders. Check Article 7 and 13 of the 1988 Charter to see yourself, compare it to Article 20 and 24-26 in the revised charter.
There’s a lot you’re saying that I agree with, but it’s undeniable that sending weapons to Isreal is not solving this problem it’s directly causing the problem. Biden is incredibly ineffective at solving this and is not holding any sort of red line for real. He needs to hold Isreal accountable for their actions. We have sent billions and billions of dollars of weapons to Isreal, and we likely aren’t stopping anytime soon even if Kamala is elected. We need to hold their feet to the fire and show them this is unacceptable.
There are extremists on both sides that would ve killing civilians with sticks and stones if they had no other means. Parties like Iran are sending one sided weapons to help them win. The US sending weapons to the other is not the only factor ‘causing’ this problem.
It doesn’t matter. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict isn’t even in the top 10 major threats to our country.
You can be unhappy about it, but this election is literally deciding whether the US will be a fascist, theocracic dictatorship.
I agree with your stance, but it’s a hell of a hard pill to swallow when both action and inaction directly support the continued financing of a genocide.
Vote for the lesser evil now, but make up for it by holding them to account to the fullest of your ability once they’re in.
No politician is going to please everyone. All we can do is keep choosing the less bad option until there’s finally a good option.
Ranked choice voting would be nice, but for that to ever be an option we need the left to overpower the right.
All we can do is keep choosing the less bad option
That’s absolutely not the case. For the Democrats to pull back towards the left, their viability as a choice for left-leaning voters needs to be threatened. It’s too late for this election, so vote Dem, but in the medium term it means taking action to support a better third party that actually champions progressive and egalitarian governance and peaceful foreign policy, and also challenging the Democrats with protests and campaigns.
Waiting did not get women the vote. Waiting did not achieve the victories of the Civil Rights movement. Waiting will not stop US proxy genocide in the Middle East.
it’s a hell of a hard pill to swallow
Welcome to being a functioning adult. Life sucks, and it sucks worse when you throw temper tantrums instead of pursuing harm reduction when you can.
but also fuck you for talking to people like that for caring about human lives.
That’s fair. I have very little patience for people who need to be handheld through making sane, rational decisions. That’s a me problem. It would be more effective if I were more empathetic.
3 - Participating in and commenting on the voting mechanism is just one bit of the overall development of political, social and cultural history.
What seems to be “normal” or “acceptable” or “possible” to a given person/part of a population, is the outcome of discourse and maybe more important: concrete options.
Tangible options to participate in something solidary that’s useful and provides meaningful participation, make left values and ideas soo much more credible and “in reach”.
IMO these options and experiences can at the moment only really be created from below. Neither corporations nor the government (any time soon) will provide the people with democratic economic solitutions, neighboorhood solidarity, labor organization, collective housing, social movements etc.
You are so much more than voters. You can organize the practical and ideological negation of the BS you oppose so rightfully.
Be it a better third option or leftshifting the dems, anyway the whole voting part of history will become more fun that way, too.
What’s insane is that the US is supporting a genocide and the fascist israel government and there’s still people who have the guts to take government side. Shame on you.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_Israel–Hamas_war
1 - USA is already helping israel with “whatever it needs”. The support of fascist israel government is already tripled up. There’s a disaster already, kids are being murdered daily right now.
2 - Less than a click is needed, usa just have to say that they will stop sending money and weapons to israel if they don’t stop and israel government will have to stop. Israel government is waging war because they have the back of USA.
If you don’t vote for Harris over a mess in the Middle East that we didn’t directly create
Learn your history.
Your abstain or 3rd party vote does nothing to “move the Dems to the left” when in reality you are removing them from power to give it to Trump
If there’s enough of us that it could seriously endanger the elections for the Dems, their analysts likely know this already and have no choice but to consider concessions to try to regain some of those votes, therefore we do have power.
More likely, we just don’t have enough to move the needle, and therefore all this hand wringing is a waste of breath.
Maybe next election people will realize we can’t move the Dems left by unwaveringly voting for them every single election, we have to hold them to account. Otherwise this shitty cycle of choosing the “less bad option” every election because it’s an emergency will not ever end. It is in the Dem’s interest that it does not.
Any concessions to Leftists will cost far more moderate votes than it would buy Leftist votes. Leftists are NOTORIOUSLY fickle, and one of your leading voices this election is an obvious Russian plant who wouldn’t accept any concessions under any circumstances.
I’m supporting Harris, but I think people miss the real argument for Trump on Israel. Honestly, a good case can be made that Trump has a better chance of pulling US away from Israel than Harris will. Historically, Republicans have actually stood up to Israel better than Democrats have. Reagan for instance wasn’t afraid to use US military aid as leverage to rein in Israel.
But moreover, I think the core of the argument for why Trump might be better for Harris on Palestine is that fundamentally, it is extremely unlikely that Harris will do anything to rein in Netanyahu. She will likely continue Biden’s policies and continue to give him carte blanche to do whatever he wants. Anything short of complete ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian population of Gaza and the West Bank will see Kamala continue aid at current levels.
Trump will largely do the same. However, there is a small, but nonzero, chance that Trump will pull aid from Israel for simple self-serving reasons. At his core he is extremely doubtful of any kind of foreign aid. And at some point he might simply pull aid not because he supports the Palestinians, but because he’s at his core an isolationist and doesn’t want to give money to either side. From the press I’ve read, it seems that Israel would actually prefer Kamala to win. Why? Because while Trump might overall be better ideologically than Kamala, Kamala is at least more reliable. Trump is erratic and could just pull US aid entirely on a whim. From Israel’s perspective, Kamala is expected to reliably deliver the current level of support regardless of Israel’s actions. Trump is a wildcard. He might give more support, or he might just pull the US out of Israel entirely. He’s is chaotic to his core.
Again, I’ll be voting for Harris, but there is a very good argument that Israel would prefer Kamala over Trump. Yes, there’s a chance that Trump would give them even higher levels of support - joining hand in hand in a ware against Iran, giving them full blessing to completely expel the Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank, etc. But it’s not like Trump at his core is some friend to the Jews. He’s an old-school anti-Semite at heart, despite what he says. It’s entirely possible that one day he just decides to pull all aid, simply because he’s tired of the US paying for it. He is again, at his core, an isolationist, “America first” type. From Israel’s perspective, Kamala represents a guaranteed steady supply of aid at current levels. Trump represents a gamble that could see a massive increase of support or a complete collapse of it, simply depending on how Trump’s mood evolves. And really, Kamala is probably a better bet for them because of it.
I think that’s a misreading of Trump, if it’s even really possible to read him by statements alone.
Trump says a lot of things, but I am assuming he wants to be “hands off” in the sense of not interfering in Israel’s affairs and preserving the status quo, rather than cutting Israel off from American support. Much of his voter base is staunchly pro-Israel, so it would harm his support if he were to break that core pillar of the Republican party so suddenly.
Looking at his actions during his previous presidency, he did demonstrate that he was a strong ally of Israel, going so far as to move the US embassy from Tel Aviv to the contested capital of Jerusalem/Al Quds, which is something that had not been done before by any previous administration. Not like Biden made any moves to take the embassy out of Jerusalem either, but Trump effectively cemented US approval of Israel’s expansionist practices by placing American affairs directly in the middle of it.
That’s a LOT of “may” and “might”. Nothing is off the table when it comes to Trump, sure, but I don’t think this is a possibility worth considering.
You’re not wrong. However, this holding-your-nose voting is exactly what the Righties that aren’t team Trump are doing. So if everyone is holding their nose, maybe we fix that problem? And honestly, until it gets truly horrible, nothing will change. The world let Hitler do a lot of shit before intervening. Maybe we let Trump have his second term. He goes full dictator and things get bad. We get a productive civil war and finish what Sherman started. US comes out reformed.
I am not super concerned about a second Trump term. He can’t even campaign without people taking pot shots at him. I think that problem will sort itself out within the first year.
So, you think that if Trump dies in office Vance won’t be worse? Vance is younger and smarter and ready to do anything to stay in power.
Nah, never said that. And if Trump is getting pot shots, you think Vance won’t? The true check against the fascists is always violence. It is the only language they respect. I fully believe if they try their little coup, things will turn to shit real fast.
Fascists have had their asses kicked in numerous elections.
Also, you seem to think that there’s going to be some magic number where the assassinations magically give us a good government. What’s much, much more likely is that as soon as Trump dies all elections are cancelled and all MAGoos are deputized and Kyle Rittenhouse is the new Attorney General.
Yeah, that does seem pretty likely. I also think civil war would become very likely after a stunt like that. Great movie idea actually. The ethnofascists decide that Trump being assassinated could actually galvanize a full white supremacy uprising. So they do it. Vance predictably circles the wagons and declares martial law. The confedernazis start lynching. And then all hell breaks loose.
Life is not a fucking movie or video game. A lot of people would die. It would not be “like, totally awesome dude”.
Ignore the edgelord. That’s what I should have done.
Didn’t say it would be awesome. It would really suck. Lots of people dead. Yep. But given the current status quo, lots of people are already dead. So is it the rate of death that bothers you?
The plan is to dismantle democracy if Trump wins. They’re putting up with him to gain full control. We don’t get another chance after that.
Hence the 2nd amendment and civil war. Unfortunately, you do get a second chance, but it will be ugly and costly.
That’s an incredibly privileged take. Who’s to say that you don’t end up a victim under the genocide Trump and friends wish to enact upon the American population? Or your friends and family? Coworkers? Peers?
Accelerationism is not the answer. It will not lead to anything except an unstable country filled with strife and infighting, and it certainly won’t lead to any sort of social progress. Positive change happens slowly, you cannot force it through violence.
Positive change happens slowly, you cannot force it through violence.
I’d argue a guillotine dramatically improved social progress, and for the time period, pretty quickly.
So you’re voting for war and genocide. Got it
Bro, voting for either of them won’t stop the warring or the genociding. The US can’t not be involved in some kind of armed conflict and also maintain the current hegemony. Just because we put a veneer of democracy on it, doesn’t make it any better, in fact it makes it worse. Either the majority of the populace is cool with it (tyranny of the majority, yay democracy?) or the leaders do it without the consent of the governed and the populace doesn’t immediately depose (tacit consent by virtue of not giving enough fucks to overcome the inertia, yay democracy?). Voting in a two party system is like picking between a shit sandwich and a diarrhea smoothie.
I’m not voting at all actually. The whole system is too depressing to engage. Of all the games humans choose to play, we chose this one with all this misery and strife and assholes. Voting won’t make any of it better. Two centuries in with industrial technology, and we can only seem to achieve some kind of bullshit metastability of two steps forward, one step back, for anything. History syndicates generationally with the same dumb things happening over and over. We are capable of so much more than this. We can imagine such wondrous things. Yet we are consumed by avarice, lust for power, tribalism, emotional thinking. Humanity doesn’t deserve the gift of consciousness.
until it gets truly horrible, nothing will change
Accelerationists should just volunteer to walk in the gas chambers right now, since it’s what they want. Rid the world of your insanity.
Hard to do that given suicide is criminalized in many places. So, uh, go vote so we can do what you want, I guess? It isn’t enough to know the train wreck is coming, but I am forced to endure watching it unfold like a sneeze that never comes as the authoritarians do their best to defy entropy. The constant strife and tension is just not worth it. In fact, it is boring. Nothing lasts forever. Institutions should wither and die just like people. We pretend there is some kind of coherent narrative to the institutions when really they drunkenly stumble through time, reacting to the shit as it happens. Tenaciously gripping onto the current world order as if it is our peak is very disheartening. We should just let it go.
suicide is criminalized in many places.
Oh no! What are they gonna do, arrest your corpse? Like, I don’t care, but that’s just a silly statement.
This is just pro Israeli propaganda. This specific conflict started in 1948. The whole UN has voted against Isreal. And you’re telling me that that region will have all out war if Israeli troops stopped killing children? GTF outta here.
More like:
Will solve conflict in the Middle East by letting Israel kill whoever they want, and take any land they want, with full support from the US
vs.
Will solve conflict in the Middle East by letting Israel kill whoever they want, and take any land they want, with full support from the US
“Muh bothsidez!”
I’d tack on:
but explained in a more presidential, civil fashion.
to option 2
If US stopped sending billions in weapons for Israel to kill whoever their current target is, that would be a huge blow to the whole ‘conflict’ (as in, a colonial genocide). Neither of the candidates are willing to do anything of the sort though - Kamala has pledged to continue supporting Israel while Trump has pledged to give all the support Israel needs to ‘finish the job quickly’.
And while yes, there’s nuance to be found like with literally everything in the world, it’s not a reason to dismiss any criticisms thrown at your preferred candidate.
If they were good faith criticisms, sure. But they’re just propaganda. All this talk about Gaza will vanish like a fart in the wind after the election.
Exactly. They’ll disappear and resurface as alt accounts that will play the victim of their own ignorance.
“Woe is me! How did we en up with Trump! Noooooooooo…….”
