Is this not explicitly a massive violation of international law and war crime?
There’s no one to enforce “international law”
Yes it is, and not because of whether the attacks were targeted.
This is a US West Point essay BTW.
Interesting he feels clear to admit this after Trump is elected.
The Kamala administration was going to sanction them for being related to this event.
/s?
Who’s the terrorist now?
The others!!!
Now?
Good point
You’re saying it was not targeted at combatants, or that there was a lot of collateral damage?
Two health workers and two children were killed, many from the civilian branch of the governent were injured (which were blatantly categorized as Hizbullah fighters). Even if not a single civilian were killed or hurt, some of these pagers exploded in grocery stores and other public spaces effectively terrorizing and traumatizing the local population.
So yes, it was a terrorist attack. Recently, Israeli occupation in Gaza was added to the list of genocides in wikipedia, this should be added as a list of terrorist attacks in the middle east.
More to the point, it was literally intended to terrorize.
Still, a lot more clinical than having to drop a bomb on each of these Hezbros. So overall very beneficial for the Lebanese civilians
🤡
Very beneficial to them to be traumatized and potentially injured or killed by a nation wide terrorist attack. Enough internet for today.
When the alternative is Hezbollah drawing their country further into war? Trying to stop them yourself would expose yourself and your family to a lot worse… I’d take that Hezbro’s balls being blown off at the checkout next to me any day
Hezbollah only exists because of Occupations and invasions by Israel
1982
The 1982 Lebanon war began on 6 June 1982, when Israel invaded again for the purpose of attacking the Palestine Liberation Organization. The Israeli army laid siege to Beirut. During the conflict, according to Lebanese sources, between 15,000 and 20,000 people were killed, mostly civilians.
On 16 February 1985, Shia Sheik Ibrahim al-Amin declared a manifesto in Lebanon, announcing a resistance movement called Hezbollah, whose goals included combating the Israeli occupation. During the South Lebanon conflict (1985–2000) the Hezbollah militia waged a guerrilla campaign against Israeli forces occupying Southern Lebanon and their South Lebanon Army proxies.
Israeli Withdrawal
Throughout the painstaking process of confirming the Israeli withdrawal, Hizballah was at pains to declare its commitment to recovering the last millimeter of Lebanese territory, but it also acknowledged that it would not act hastily to reinitiate violence. In sum, Hizballah’s behavior and deference to state authority have worked to its political advantage. It reaped recognition in an unprecedented meeting between Nasrallah and UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan, who praised Hizballah’s restraint and its promise of cooperation. The meeting with Annan offers a remarkable contrast with Hizballah’s earlier days, when it was hostile to the UN and especially to the UN force in the south.
Without an agreement between Syria and Israel, there will be little pressure on Hizballah to disarm. Syria’s calculated strategy is to allow Hizballah to serve as a constant reminder of the consequences of continuing to occupy the Golan Heights.This is a role that Hizballah is happy to play, given its enmity toward Israel. At the same time, it remains profoundly aware of the political costs of bringing destruction down on the heads of its supporters, and this further reduces the prospect that Hizballah will initiate attacks on Israel
2006
The doctrine is named after the Dahiya suburb of Beirut, where the Lebanese paramilitary group Hezbollah has its headquarters, which the Israeli military leveled during its assault on Lebanon in the summer of 2006 that killed nearly 1,000 civilians, about a third of them children, and caused enormous damage to the country’s civilian infrastructure, including power plants, sewage treatment plants, bridges, and port facilities.
It was formulated by then-General Gadi Eisenkot when he was Chief of Northern Command. As he explained in 2008 referring to a future war on Lebanon: "What happened in the Dahiya quarter of Beirut in 2006 will happen in every village from which Israel is fired on… We will apply disproportionate force on it (village) and cause great damage and destruction there. From our standpoint, these are not civilian villages, they are military bases… This is not a recommendation. This is a plan. And it has been approved.” Eisenkot went on to become chief of the general staff of the Israeli military before retiring in 2019.
While it became official Israeli military doctrine after Israel’s 2006 attack on Lebanon, Israel’s military has used disproportionate force and targeted Palestinian, Lebanese, and other civilians since Israel was established in 1948 based on the ethnic cleansing of indigenous Palestinians, including dozens of massacres to force them to flee for their lives.
2007 - Present
Until recently, the border had been relatively quiet. Occasional rockets or drones crossed from Lebanon into Israel without leading to serious escalation, while Israel violated Lebanese airspace more than 22,000 times from 2007 to 2022.
While the withdrawal was certified by the United Nations, Lebanon disputed it, arguing that the Shebaa Farms was part of its territory, and not part of the Syrian Golan Heights, which Israel continues to occupy.
So there are two separate issues here that lead to the current dispute: the first is that Israel occupies the Golan Heights and treats it as its own territory in violation of international law, and the second is that there was already a pre-existing disagreement between Syria and Lebanon over the border, prior to the Israeli occupation.
Your copypaste seems to be a tad one-sided there buddy
Do you think Hezbollah restarting hostilities with Israel is benefitting the Lebanese?
It’s explicitly a war crime, whether or not it was “targeted”.
Are those the only requirements you think make something an act of terror?
Which requirements are they missing, that are applicable to the pager attack?
Well let’s see, the FBI calls international terrorism “Violent, criminal acts committed by individuals and/or groups who are inspired by, or associated with, designated foreign terrorist organizations or nations (state-sponsored).” And I’d argue the pagers were state-sponsored, violent, and to my knowledge criminal since killing civilians is typically viewed as criminal.
But I really like how Wikipedia words it:
the use of violence against non-combatants to achieve political or ideological aims. The term is used in this regard primarily to refer to intentional violence during peacetime or in the context of war against non-combatants (mostly civilians and neutral military personnel). There are various different definitions of terrorism, with no universal agreement about it. Different definitions of terrorism emphasize its randomness, its aim to instill fear, and its broader impact beyond its immediate victims.
Do I really need to spell out for you how using an IED to kill whoever happens to be near it when the detonator is pressed fits this definition? If so I’d like to see why you think Oct 7th was a terrorist attack.
Because bystanders were not deliberately targeted by the pager attack. They were collateral. If I launch 20 rockets at a military base and a couple of them go astray and several civilians are killed, that is not a terrorist attack, even if I was aware of the possibility of that happening. Should I have been more careful? Maybe, but that is a different discussion. If I launch those rockets at a marketplace with the intention of killing/terrorizing civilians, that would be a terrorist attack. And that is the difference between the pager attack and Oct 7: intent.
The dead and the traumatized thank you for your wise observations: this helped them a lot see how Israel is so benevolent making people explode in their country.
War sucks. Doesn’t make it a terrorist attack.
I launch 20 rockets at a military base
Which military base did the pagers go off in? This is more like dropping bombs on a school or hospital because you think there are some military personnel inside. Oh wait, they do that too. I can’t believe Israel managed to get a bunch of idiots to defend IED’s.
One key note is that Israel is worse at protecting civilians than Hamas is. By their own numbers, the IDF kills more civilians for every enemy soldier they kill than Hamas does. Hamas is actually a far more ethical army, in terms of civilian casualty ratios, than the IDF is.
The harsh truth is that the only reason we call Hamas a “terrorist group” and the IDF “an army” is classism. The IDF kills 10 civilians to destroy one Hamas fighter with a laser-guided bomb? That’s just collateral damage. Hamas kills 10 civilians to kill one IDF soldier with a truck bomb? That’s terrorism.
The definition of terrorism should be amended:
terrorism (n): violence committed by a group representing one demographic group against a wealthier demographic group.
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Congratulations on being able to put on two matching socks today. I know it must have been challenging for you, but you persevered!
I mean it didn’t take a genius to figure it out.
Guiltier than a Russian standing next to a pot of polonium tea.
Or a kgb agent in the hotel room next to someone that just fell out of the window
I mean no shock that he would carry out a plan to kill people indiscriminately. What I wonder is if he could get the devices into their hands to carry out this attack, what else have they sold to Hezbollah?
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How can Israel be so precise and effective when they attack Lebanon, but in Gaza they have to kill mostly civilians to get to Hamas
The pagers weren’t precise at all.
More precise than dropping a bomb on an appartment building, I suppose…
But, yeah, not the best example of preventing collateral damage.
Do you have any info on this? I couldn’t find any info on the target Vs civilian rate of the attqck. Not even how many were targeted. Only some media coverage of single civilian stories and innocent children getting hit. I assume this is inevitable in a large scale operation like this. But, from the videos available, it seemed like the explosives had very limited radius, where even people standing next to the targets were not hit or even knocked over!
Compare that to flattening entire cities, to get to the targets, i’d call it pretty precise!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Lebanon_electronic_device_attacks
As of 22 September 2024, the death toll from the attacks was 42,[7] including at least 12 civilian deaths.[107] More than 3,500 people were injured.[7]
at least 12 people were killed in the first wave of attacks,[1] including civilians such as two health workers,[108][26][109] a 9-year-old girl and an 11-year-old boy.[110][111][112] The adult son of Ali Ammar, a Hezbollah member of Parliament was killed;[107] Prime Minister Najib Mikati visited southern Beirut to pay his respects.[24] More than 2,750 people were wounded.[113] In the second wave on 18 September, at least 30 people were killed and 750 others were injured.[5][16] One eye doctor at Mount Lebanon University Hospital reported that a number of those injured showed signs of something being blown up directly in their face, with some losing one or both eyes, while others had shrapnel in their brains.[114][115] The Lebanese health ministry reported that 300 people had lost both eyes and 500 people had lost one eye as a result of the pager attacks.[116] Other doctors saw severe hand, waist and facial injuries, reporting patients with fingers torn, hands amputated, eyes popped out of the socket and facial lacerations.[117]
Health Minister Firass Abiad said the vast majority of those being treated in emergency rooms were in civilian clothing and their Hezbollah affiliation was unclear.[118] He added the casualties included elderly people as well as young children. According to the Health Ministry, healthcare workers were also injured and it advised all healthcare workers to discard their pagers.[119][120] On 26 September, Abdallah Bou Habib, Lebanon’s Foreign Minister, confirmed that most of those carrying pagers were not fighters, rather civilians like administrators.[121] Qassim Qassir, a Lebanese expert on Hezbollah,[d] said the attacks mostly struck civilian workers, leaving its military wing largely unaffected.
Sounds like it was pretty well targeted then??!
It says thousands of explosions and over 3500 injuries. But that seems pretty targeted. One would assume that most of those 3500 injured, must have been the people carrying the thousands of devices that exploded.
If you have thousands of explosions, you have thousands of targets, and therefore thousands of injuries!
Looking at the video on that link, seemingly, only the person carrying the device, was affected. The guy. Standing next to him, jua st walks around, after the explosion, seemingly unaffected.
I am comparing this, to schools and entire cities being demolished, to get to Hamas. You cent tell me that there is a difference between their efforts in those two efforts
No.
Just because someone pisses next to the toilet most of the time, doesn’t make it “well targeted” if for once he manages to get half of his piss inside the toilet once. And then you are still left with a huge puddle of piss.
Or rather there was still an insane number of civillians murdered and injured.
Also if anything had gone slightly different in the supply chain or Hezbollah had caught wind of it, instead it could have killed 0 Hezbollah and 100% Civillians.
Maybe you heard of Russia sending letter bombs through Europes postal system. That is about the equivalent. It is completely reckless and has no ambitions to reliably target. It is a method of terror and that was the goal above all else.
ok so as long as it is very well targeted it is ok to explode thousands of bombs in grocery stores, synagogues, churches or streets of cities like Tel Aviv*, London, Berlin, Washington etc so long as it targets terrorist operatives (but likely traumatizes and terrorizes civilians)?
*: not the capital you wise ass I know
Yes! (unless you know a better way?)
not being a genocidal expansionist state that feeds terrorism in your neighbours is a good way to start
I mean if killing a majority of civilians is well targeted then you’re saying the idf was going after civilians which is a war crime so
what the fuck?
So if Hezbollah launches a campaign to mail anthrax to leading Israeli military and civilian leaders, will you call that well-targeted as well?
But, from the videos available, it seemed like the explosives had very limited radius, where even people standing next to the targets were not hit or even knocked over!
It’s not about being knocked over; these explosions created shrapnel and that shrapnel created tons of injuries. We don’t have numbers because nobody bothered to count, but these were still bombs. There was no way they were not going to harm hundreds if not thousands of innocent civilians.
Not to mention, from the evidence that is public so far, it appears that they waited for these devices to be in public and busy locations before they were detonated
We don’t have numbers because Hezbollah keeps a lid on this kind of info. You can bet your pager they’d make the numbers public if they were in their favor
I am not going to argue with this because i come with my sources, for my points of view, and you point out the lack of sources for your points of view. There is no logic in this
The point is, i do not support either side, and I have so agenda with this comment. Simply i point out that when Israel really tries, they can avoid genocides like the one they are doing in Gaza
You didn’t provide a single source though?
I’m referring to the videos of some of the explosions, as well as the descriptions of injuries being more or less localised to pocket areas, fingers and face.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Lebanon_electronic_device_attacks
That’s the same source people have been giving you that gives great detail into civilian deaths and injuries. Thousands of injuries. I’m not sure how that proves your point.
What sources? You haven’t provided any
It was more precise in the way that the explosions were smaller. The targets were not precise.
These were pagers handed out to Hezbollah operatives. How do you get more precise?
Setting off multiple explosions in crowded areas is not precise.
The targets were precise. If a sniper shoots a single soldier in the head standing between a crowd of toddlers, was it not precise?
These were pagers handed out to Hezbollah operatives. How do you get more precise?
You were incorrect. They were handed to Hezbollah military and civilian officials. Hezbollah is effectively the government in that area; the civilian state is degraded due to decades of Israeli military strikes and incursions. There are tons of people who are “Hezbollah” but work the kinds of jobs the people down at your local city hall work. They’re the people operating the water systems, trash collection, etc. Realize also that this pager system WAS the local emergency response system. Think of the radios carried by police, EMS, and fire departments. There were doubtlessly police officers blown up by these bombs.
And worse still, these pagers have been in circulation FOR YEARS. They didn’t just send them out and immediately pop them. How many years do you keep a phone? How many of the people who had these devices later found their way to others hands?
You’re a member of Hezbollah, working in the civilian branch. One day you get a walkie talkie and carry it around with you. Another day you decide to be done with Hezbollah, so you get work somewhere else and you take the old walkie talkie to a pawn shop. The next day someone else, completely unaffiliated with Hezbollah, buys a set of those walkie talkies to talk with people around town.
You’re incorrect to assume that because someone had a civilian job, they could not have other roles within Hezbollah. Do you think Hezbollah needed secure communication equipment to tell the public trash collection administrator that they were holding their annual christmas raffle?
You seem to be fantasizing a lot about the distribution, as well as how an organisation like Hezbollah would handle someone that tried to sell their personal secure one-way pager in a pawn shop. Imagine being in an organisation that’s extremely worried about being snooped on, getting handed a secret communication device, and then trying to sell it in a pawn shop
Yeah I’d argue it was the most precisely targeted attack possible on such a scale.
But of course - since it’s Israel people use every angle possible to criticise it.
Yeah I’d argue it was the most precisely targeted attack possible on such a scale.
Maybe, and then the conclusion is don’t attack anything on such a scale.
Do you think Hezbollah thought something like this could happen when they decided to attack Israel?
You know what’s even more precise? A bullet from an AK-47 wielded by a Hamas fighter. These bombs are of similar precision to Hamas on October 7th. The Hamas militants charged across the border and started shooting every soldier they could find. A bullet is directly directed by an individual person, so they are intrinsically more precise than any guided bomb.
Did a lot of innocent Israeli civilians get caught in the crossfire? Sure. There were civilian casualties, and those increased by an order of magnitude once Israel started shooting into crowds of its own civilians. But I’m glad you recognize that Hamas does such a great job of protecting civilians. If you find the Israeli pager bombings a work of superior precision combat, you should similarly admire the work of Hamas on October 7. They are works of similar precision.
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What i dont understand, is that the intend of the attacks on Gaza become a lot more obvious when you compare it to the efficiency of attacks on Lebanon.
It wasn’t precise. It was explosives in pagers and radios that went off in public and crowded places.
Have you seen the videos of said explosions in crowded places? Single people drop and the people around them seem more or less unaffected.
As of 22 September 2024, the death toll from the attacks was 42,[7] including at least 12 civilian deaths.[107] More than 3,500 people were injured.[7]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Lebanon_electronic_device_attacks#Casualties
Two of those civilians were children. Two others were healthcare workers.
So as he said: very precise
When they crushed IS in Raqqa it was about 1,5 civilians for each IS bro
I really don’t think you understand what “precise” means.
It means only killing the people you intended to kill.
Hey that’s like, your opinion bro.
You’re thinking about ‘100% precise’
War is never 100% precise. Hezbollah themselves cause 0.7 civilian casualties for every IDF/Israeli police they manage to kill in this conflict
“They killed more” is not an excuse for killing children. Precision attacks also don’t kill children. I’m not sure why you don’t realize those things.
As far as “100% precision,” Israel seems to be able to do that just fine when they want to.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_assassinations
Do you think that you get injured like that and immediately just plop on the ground? That’s not how it works.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Lebanon_electronic_device_attacks#International_law
Ends don’t justify means, indiscriminate attacks risking civilian lives is a war crime by international law. Simultaneously exploding thousands of pagers where you have no way of assuring who possesses the pagers and where it explodes is indiscriminate as explained by many experts on the topic. Wishful thinking does not change anything.
You’ll have your answer as soon as Hamas places an order for a few thousand pagers
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It’s awesome to kill civilians in a terrorist attack?
Zios going mask off.
