Context https://lemmy.world/comment/14641595
Anyone, who doesn’t tread the „destroy Israel“ party line gets banned from [email protected]
Edit: although people here hate Israel and different opinions with a passion, nobody could cite the actual rule I broke.
YDI.
You’re a genocide denier. No ifs, ands or buts.
PTB. Substantive discussions around the definition of genocide are not the same as Nazis saying the Holocaust never happened or whatever and I think it’s ridiculous to conflate those things. There is no rule that would cover this other than one against misinformation—but OP has not challenged the facts on the ground, just the way language is being used. Language is always going to be a subjective and arbitrary thing.
That said, other things OP has said here might constitute misinformation so that makes me wonder if there is any missing context beyond this single comment.
There’s no “rule” against promoting genocide because it’s just common human decency that shouldn’t need a rule.
It’s like making a rule against posting videos of yourself eating poop. Just don’t do it.
The ICJ has a reputation for its failures to stop past genocides and waiting until it does not matter anymore before they finally submit the judgement. Besides genocide denial you are factually incorrect.
YDI for the reasons others have already listed, and also Y’dDI here for your efforts to rule lawyer after the fact.
YDI.
It’s genocide by any other definition. You can split hairs all you want and call it “crimes against humanity” or whatever, but it’s a distinction without much difference when we’re talking about targeted missile strikes upon schools, hospitals, and apartment buildings. Pedantry isn’t going to convey some nuance that people are missing, and the mods were right to put a stop to it.
If making targeted strikes against specific structures is grounds for calling it a genocide then what does launching 10,000 unguided rockets randomly into who-knows-what in a single day count as?
I hold the incredibly unpopular opinion that both sides have been absolutely terrible for a long time so don’t come at me for picking a side. I am genuinely curious if you consider both of those acts of aggression as a genocide or not based on your own listed definition.
There were no targeted strikes. Biden told Israel to stop carpet bombing Gaza and Netanyahu’s defense was that he was doing a Dresden.
What does launching 10,000 unguided rockets randomly into who-knows-what in a single day count as?
There were no 10.000 rockets in a single day. It was like 2200 and most of them were simple distraction rockets.
My apologies. It was ~10,000 rockets including October 7th and up until now.
However on October 7th specifically there are several reports putting the number around ~5,000 in a single day. All fired indiscriminately into primarily civilian areas.
Yes they were “distraction” rockets to overwhelm the iron dome, but most of those continued into strike again civilians primarily.
So if it’s a genocide when Israel is firing rockets into Gaza then why is it not a genocide when you reverse the roles?
Logically they would either both considered attempted genocide or neither of them would be considered genocide.
This is how resistance from a concentration camp works. Hamas took great care to avoid child casualties. Israel takes great care to create child casualties.
“Hamas took great care to avoid child casualties”
https://www.barrons.com/news/how-many-children-were-killed-in-hamas-s-october-7-attack-9c1d8239
They shot one baby in the head along with their father inside of a bomb shelter.
They burned another baby and two other kids along with their parents.
They killed another 35 minors on October 7th alone.
And before you even try to claim that news source is biased they are independently reviewed to be a “center” news source.
I can openly admit that Israel has killed who even knows how many kids in Gaza since October 7th.
The only difference is I find both sides here to be sick and evil. You seem to think only one side of this conflict has done anything wrong.
Israel is confirmed to have killed at least 6 of the children you are mentioning so half your comment is discarded. The burnt children you are mentioning were confirmed killed by IDF tank fire.
Your dramatization of a baby being shot while held by an IDF militant is not relevant either.
Nonetheless even counting all the minors as killed by Hamas, it would constitute as 3% of the total Israeli deaths on 7 october.
The children killed by Israel in Gaza constitute more than 40% of the total deaths.
These numbers alone very clearly show who is targeting children and who is not.
This is not taking into account Israel on average killed more children in Gaza every single day than the total amount killed on 7 october.
a distinction without much difference
To you his might not matter. Words, especially legal terms under international law have actual definitions.
If it doesn’t make a difference why ban people?
Because you’re playing pedant with people’s lives to stroke your own ego and/or prove that you’re the smartest one in the room. Meanwhile, people make those same arguments to try to discredit anyone who says the IDF and Netanyahu are killing civilians on purpose, that they’re killing women and children with abandon, that they’re committing war crimes like they’re going for the high score.
Perhaps you don’t have malicious intent, but you should at least recognize that you sound like someone with an agenda and haven’t conveyed a take that they haven’t all made themselves before.
In short, you sound like a shill for war crimes, whether you mean to or not, and you should reflect on why you feel it’s important to quibble about the difference between “crimes against humanity” and “genocide.” This is not an international courtroom.
YDI, try not denying genocide
It’s still an ongoing debate among experts if the war in Gaza can be considered a genocide or not. The ICJ hasn’t ruled on the case either.
If one considers the war a genocide or not is still a political and legal argument at the moment. I am making such an argument in my OP. Suppressing political debate that doesn’t violate the rules is blatant powertripping to enforce a political agenda.
Especially in the Israel/Palestine conflict, accusations of (slow motion) genocide have been leveled against Israel decades before the current Gaza war. I think in this case, it’s only used as a phrase to demonize Israel, not actually understand and describe the situation. The whole debate is part of the conflict in the information space.
Don’t start making your case here or you’ll cop a ban here as well for going off-topic
What rule am I violating? Why should arguing a case be off topic? Isn’t this what this community is supposedly about?
From the sidebar
Sometimes one just wants to be able to challenge the arguments some mod made and this could be the place for that.
The mod didn’t even make an argument that refers to a rule, that was supposedly broken.
I don’t want to see you denyinggenocide here. You can argue whether you should gave been banned or not
YDI
Why? I didn’t break any rule.
Going all “aaaaachsually…” about an ongoing genocide of which dozens of genocide experts have labeled as genocide, deserves what’s coming to you.
Dozens of genocide experts have also denied it being a genocide.
Dozens of experts also denied smoking causes cancer or that climate change is happening. Last waning Btw. Take the genocide denial elsewhere
For those of you who don’t know big tobacco pioneered this tactic in corporate context.
Essentially, Israel is knows this is fucked but they also know they can buy off experts, and seed doubt within normie population who still view Israel in positive light. So they will keep doing these dilatory tricks until gen pop turns on them.
By that time genocide will be done and they will play coy about
Never gain, this time for real, trust me bro 🤡
Further reading:
ADL and AIPAC?
You can click the link and read it yourself.
The discussion is here… You linking neo liberal fake news website from country that is enabling the genocide since early 20th century.
Then you are telling me to go read this trash as some sort of flex?
You gonna need to do better here and yojr behavior is starting to look like bad faith propaganda tactic.
Don’t encourage them. This discussion thread ends here
Calling the guardian neo liberal fake news, is certainly a take.
Denying genocide is rule breaking but I still don’t think censoring you is proper here.
You should be able to express yourself and people should be able to have a discussion with you. Your arguments rely on assumptions about international order that don’t actually exist.
Now that’s can’t happen which is lose lose.
Show me the rule. My whole argument is that, it’s not legally or scholarly settled if the war in Gaza is a genocide or not.
Go check the sub haha
My whole argument is that, it’s not legally or scholarly settled if the war in Gaza is a genocide or not.
That’s your opinion but in public eyes, this is settled as genocide. You should be able to disagree and argue your point and people should mock you.
Also, you are going into genocide apologia territory now.
I don’t need another man explaining to me:
Well akshually, they only killed like 1% of the population they could do a lot more, so not a genocide.
Israel is systematically displacing Palestinian population within Gaza and west bank. That’s a a hallmark of a genocide.
But we not hear to argue that, I don’t think your opinion should be modded until you clear demonstrated bad faith intent. Which it seems like you would have tbh if given a chance.
Removed by mod
Boss man said:
shut it down
But these arguments are getting further into bad faith territory.
YDI and I’m blocking you for being a genocide denier and an overall fucking moron based on numerous comments.
Also I bet you’re a shit ass boyfriend why would anyone want to date a genocide denier.
My love life is great, thank you for your concern. I hope you find someone who loves you one day.
YDI.
Why? What rule did I break?
Human decency.
Yep. c/politics on .world is NOT neutral in any shape or form. Before the election, not only did I say that I was going to vote for a third party, but that third party is Socialist Workers Party. The SWP is also pro Israel (tho I’m neutral on that part—I’m all about their pro-union stance).
I STILL have people from .world stalking me, tracking me, and trying to get me banned from other instances. Even tho the election is over now and the drama was months ago. lmao
.world will absolutely fucking ban you for not agreeing with them. Lemmy, in general is quick to ban/block anyone who disagrees with them, but .world is especially pro-censorship.
The active suppression of discourse on Lemmy is astounding. The instances and communities are small, but often ruled with an iron fist.
I was the second most active poster in a community with half a dozen regular commenters. The mod got so butthurt over a minor disagreement at some point, he banned half the community members. Now he’s posting alone.
I STILL have people from .world stalking me, tracking me, and trying to get me banned from other instances.
I‘ve seen this happen. Someone was banned from feddit.org as well for a mild pro Israel post on .world.
I’m trying dude. But I also don’t want SJW to be a server that has anything to do with politics, so there’s only so much I can do.
All I would say is that it’s much better to have leftist political extremists controlling the discourse rather than than alt right psychos. Ideally the discussion would be more diverse and open minded, but with the tiny userbase that’s not really an option yet.
Your best bet is to avoid discussing the Palestinian conflict entirely. Nothing that we say on Lemmy is going to change what happens IRL anyway.
Your best bet is to avoid discussing the Palestinian conflict entirely
The chilling effect is real.
This is Lemmy. IRL Israel is doing whatever they want anyway. It seems apparent that the chilling effect doesn’t affect them whatsoever.
This isn’t a court of law, it’s simply practical advice about how to act on Lemmy so that the platform can grow and succeed. Sometimes you lose the battle but win the war.
I don’t think a platform that promotes antisemitism to a wide audience is worth growing.
Okay… first of all, opposition to the Israeli actions in Palestine is not equivalent to antisemitism. That’s just a fact.
People who are antisemitic are definitely going to take that position, but most people take that position for completely different reasons.
Secondly, the growth of the platform will inherently change the nature of the discourse. If we get tens of thousands more users over here, the conversation will change drastically. That’s why starting from a position that challenges the dominant mainstream discourse is an advantage for Lemmy, because that position is guaranteed to be diluted as we grow.
opposition to the Israeli actions in Palestine is not equivalent to antisemitism. That’s just a fact.
Obviously not. Demonization, delegitimization, and calling for the destruction of the only Jewish state is antisemitic though.
But I also don’t want SJW to be a server that has anything to do with politics, so there’s only so much I can do.
Wait, so how come that [email protected] is basically the recommendation for people wanting an alternative to [email protected]? Are you admins unhappy with having that community on your instance?
Cheers to @[email protected] and @[email protected] I guess!
I don’t think we get much credit for that part, tbh. It’s a US based politics community. Thanks anyway though.
What you said was disgusting and abhorrent. It should have been removed.
7 days is very lenient. Take it on the chin and reflect.
I understand you don’t like it, but what rule did I break?
This is disgusting hasbara. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Indeed the more he speaks, the more it becomes clear this was a vector of attack on Israel’s behalf
deleted by creator
Well, I’m going to start off with the obvious thing. You absolutely do not have a leg to stand on as far as what you said being genocide denial. You can quibble about semantics all you want, but that’s literally what you did.
That being said, you’re right about one thing. Genocide denial isn’t an explicitly listed rule.
But you still broke multiple rules. The fact that you can’t see that genocide denial falls under them, even though it is most definitely not listed as a specific rule of its own, that may be a thing where c/politics needs to refine its rules for better understanding, or it may be that you need to understand that you don’t have to list every possible iteration of a broad rule for it to be part of a rule.
Then, if you go to the very bottom of their rules it does explicitly state that posts and comments may be removed even if they don’t break any enumerated rules. My app doesn’t let me flip back and forth to copy/paste what’s written there word for word, but he mod action taken is within their stated standards.
Do I think that them using a ban reason that doesn’t match their rules in wording was a good idea? Hell no. They should have just listed it as an extension of their misinformation rule, and there wouldn’t be any question about it being appropriate. Seriously, you have made comments about the debate over whether or not the actions of Israel meet the definition of genocide, but the debate is essentially being framed on shaky ground to begin with, and none of the “it isn’t” arguments hold water. So they definitely fall under misinformation.
Now, was your comment ban worthy? Maybe, maybe not. If it was your first offense, I’d say anything beyond a one day ban was over the top. I don’t have the patience to sift through your user history to know how prone you are to that kind of thing. But it is a temporary ban. That’s not going to be PTB territory under these circumstances. Temp bans are a tool to give a user time to cool down, think, and hopefully reach out for clarification. That’s not power tripping at all. A permanent ban over a single offense, that might be power tripping, depending on the circumstances. It probably would be unless it was for an explicitly listed rule, and/or permabans are listed as a consequence for violating core rules.
So, summing up. This is not power tripping because your comment did break rules, and the ban is temporary. That you didn’t understand the rules is irrelevant to that. Take this as a chance to clarify things with that community, and possibly suggest (in a calm and polite manner) that the rules be reworded so that better understanding is possible in the future
Edit: rule 3 is where they list misinformation. It isn’t very well written, imo, but it’s there
Thank you for being the first person to admit, I didn’t break a rule.
But you still broke multiple rules
Which ones? Please be specific.
none of the “it isn’t” arguments hold water
Nobody, including you, engages with any of the arguments.
I hope you will remember this when the ICJ rules Israel as not guilty of genocide.
Up until now it’s alleged genocide, if one is charitable. Dolus specialis hasn’t been shown, which is essential.
We aren’t going to engage with the arguments here at all. This isn’t a politics community. Only reason I even mentioned it at was to avoid knee jerk responses.
Seriously, you can’t roll up into a community that’s about gathering opinions in moderator actions and expect regulars to go very far debating other things. It isn’t the place for it, and it isn’t a useful aspect of determining power tripping beyond the bare minimum needed for accuracy.
If anyone wants to discuss the details of the merits or flaws of your opinion, that’s on them, but it’s outside the scope of the community, so I’m not.
I specified rule 3 of c/politics already, and referred to their elastic clause of reserving the ability to moderate outside of enumerated rules. I’m not sure what else you want in that regard, but I’m not in the mood to break down every single rule when just those two cover the question of power tripping.
Rule 3
Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
I don’t see how I broke any of that.
That’s rule 2
Rule 3 covers your comment.
You may or may not agree that your claims are misinformation, but genocide denial is generally moderated under those grounds. That applies to more than just the Israeli issue, there are other genocides that people will insist aren’t “real” genocides.
That is a matter of semantics and pedantry that is very, very often used by bigots, like when antisemites claim the holocaust wasn’t real, that it was exaggerated, or that it wasn’t a genocide because it wasn’t successful in eradicating a population
Again, this is for the sole purpose of discussing the moderation action as it relates to power tripping. While I have opinions about what’s going on over there, they’re irrelevant to this. The one and only goal I have in this is pointing you to the rules and giving an opinion about why they might have been applied to your comment, based on general practices by that community. I absolutely will not debate the matter in this community.
anything I disagree with is misinformation
Dude, are you kidding?
I have zero interest in whatever pulpit you’re pounding. You came here, you c/powertrippingbastards, made a post and got opinions about whether or not the mod action taken was or was not power tripping.
Every fucking comment you’ve made has been argumentative, and in multiple cases, off topic for this community
I do not give a flying fuck about your opinion. My opinion of the general fucking matter of Israel is fucking irrelevant as well.
I’m fucking telling you that that’s what the fucking rule used to remove your fucking comment was about, and you’re still trying to be a fucking prick and play some kind of shit stirring bullshit.
Well, fuck you. You can take that kind of thinking and behaviour and shove it square up your ass because up until this I have been nothing but respectful and on topic.
Let me say this one more fucking time, you jackass. I DON’T CARE WHAT YOUR OPINION WAS. That’s not the fucking point of this community. I don’t even remember at this point what your comment said in detail, so I can’t even tell you if I disagree with it or not.
But I’ll tell you this much, you fucking pimple, you need banned from the fucking internet for pure, mule headed stupidity
My dude you’ve had the patience of a saint, which makes this final rebuke so fucking tasty 🌶️🔥
Removed by mod
Good.
