I’m gonna get real with you folks, we’ve had way too many of these posts recently. I’ve been reflecting on this topic a lot the past few days. For me personally, I couldn’t care less about my gender identity. But just because that’s true for me, doesn’t make that true for everyone.
The beauty of the fediverse is that if you don’t like the way a particular instance or community is moderated you can simply choose another to hang out on, or create your own.
Blajah has made it pretty clear by now they will ban anyone who argues against the validity of xenogenders, in order to create a safe space for those folks. That’s fair enough imo.
Safe spaces should be respected, and Blajah’s admins/mods do not deserve abuse for creating and maintaining those spaces.
I can completely understand why Blajah users don’t want to have to constantly argue with external users about the validity of their chosen identities. Bans are one way Blajah has decided to manage that problem so that their users can experience lemmy in relative peace and safety. While it is a blunt tool and I have my reservations about preemptive bans, there are not many other options for @[email protected], other than defederation from most instances. That would be a terrible outcome for the fediverse as a whole.
In order to help Blajah to maintain their safe space, I would like to propose, if @[email protected] agrees and community sentiment is positive:
- that we no longer accept posts about this topic in this community; and
- we also remove previous posts on this topic from the community.
That’s all folks, have at 'er.
moderates a drama community
gets upset when people air drama
PTB if you make this change
this community is about documenting admin/mod abuse making exceptions for other instances undermines the entire point
I’d want the old posts kept for historical reference, but otherwise I’m fine with this.
I’ll die on the hill that their bullshit about pronouns and respecting nonsense and made up troll identities that make a mockery of us makes the world LESS SAFE for queer people. As a queer person who is visibly gender nonconforming and at physical risk in our current political environment. Im willing to be banned from all of lemmy over this idgaf.
Millennial queers and our elders fought like hell for acceptance so children could get their panties in a twist over being “misgendered” by strangers on the internet who don’t know them nor give a fuck what their gender is. Do these kids even touch grass? Chronically online children putting us all at risk.
Meanwhile we have real serious threats to our physical safety in America but yeah. Let’s whine and cry about being misgendered! it’s oppression!
Edit - IRL I call people what they want to be called. Online I have no idea who the fuck you are or what your gender is nor am I going to remember. And the genderless “they” is not undermining your gender you don’t get to police the English language. And that’s really what this is about. People who feel powerless grabbing on to what little power they have to police others behavior under the ironic concept of “gatekeeping.” That’s the pronoun whining in a nutshell.
As for the question at hand, lock old posts, let new ones through. Their moderation is heavy handed and not queer friendly and they deserve criticism for it. Only their kind of queer is accepted. Not people like me living in reality, staring down the beginning of a genocide and telling them to grow the fuck up.
I’m OK with that but it has to be a bit more targeted specifically to blahaj’s rule about gatekeeping and neopronouns, and I would add everything drag of course.
I wouldn’t delete old posts, just lock them.
Maybe make it a temporary moratorium?
- Leave the threads up, probably locked. Don’t erase history.
- I wouldn’t start on wholesale topic bans just yet. This should be an absolute last resort and this will probably do more harm than good.
- Possibly create some extra categories for titles so users can filter it out if they don’t want to hear about it. Instance name of the potential PTB? Not sure.
My suggestion for this topic right now is to get everyone together that needs to and talk/scream/yell about it in private. I think everything has been said publicly at this point and the reading comprehension has gone down the toilet. The amount of misunderstandings, blanket downvotes, pettiness, bad assumptions, baiting and finger pointing is getting ridiculous. Have your damn say and find a conclusion, even if said conclusion is ‘fuck you’ from each person.
For shit like this in the future? If it comes to it, it is far better to lock first, talk to the person, and then unlock it. We can tell each other all day to be an adult, but it isn’t that simple. There will always be some big event that floods the community at some point or another. This community practically begs for it. It will eventually be filed into PTB history.
Why do you need to delete old posts?
Where can users banned by blahaj admins for lurking in other communities report it? Especially because the lahaj admins ban so many people for gatekeeping despite them not gatekeeping.
There’s a theme here of covering up dissent instead of engaging.
Blahaj admins started this whole ordeal in december for banning dissent and losing dozens of users instead of engaging with their community.
PTB
THANK YOU
I stopped visiting this instance because the transphobic screeds became too much for me. Someone who doesn’t ‘get’ half of young trans people but just feels being nice to people exploring themselves or ignoring them if they’re too much is easier.
Well, I’m for this move. The why is obvious, as you’ve covered it in the post already.
I would also like to voice support for a couple ideas from previous comments
First, that previous posts stay up, and locked, so that people can still see that the issues were.
Second, that y’all consider the possibility of an FPT (frequently power tripped) thread at some frequency where folks can still hash out the common subjects. This and the mod abuse C/ are valuable pressure relief valves. I worry that a total banning of “frequent fliers” (sic) might have effects down the road.
I know that’s extra work for mods, so it’s definitely a big ask, but lemmy does need places where disgruntled users can complain. Having multiple places is better because one community would get swamped if they’re the only place people can go for specific complaints.
In favor of doing this, but keep the old posts locked without removing them so people know what happened and what led up to this.
I agree in at least a memorandum or a break on this so everyone, myself included, can outside and breathe from air. Play games they enjoy. Read a good book. Listen to music.
Taking a break from the keyboard helps me when I’m upset about online stuff that doesn’t impact the real world.
Mad love for the user name, btw :)
Thank you!
I wouldn’t be against a temporary ban on posts about getting banned from LBZ over neopronouns, but my general inclination is to keep the previous posts up but locked as a wall of shame. I also understand wanting to take them down altogether and I wouldn’t be that fussed about it if they were.
I’m completely in favor of this.
Frankly, most of what I see on this comm is BPR and YDI, and most people could probably benefit from taking their bans and touching grass. But having some posts be YDI makes the PTB’s more exciting so maybe i’m wrong.
Maybe we should make some penalty for earning a YDI or BPR, so that people who receive them aren’t encouraged to re-hash the same conflicts over and over? I’m honestly not sure. Part of the problem is that the same people cross-post the same conflict on similar comms, which makes it feel as if the same issue is being litigated repeatedly.
But complaining about receiving a ban from a protective community with strict conduct policies is certainly not the intent of this community, i don’t think.
But complaining about receiving a ban from a protective community with strict conduct policies is certainly not the intent of this community, i don’t think.
Is that all it takes to be immune from PTB status? Being a ‘protective’ community, but only towards the ‘right’ people who think in the ‘right’ way?
Maybe it is? Don’t non-binary people have a right to moderate their own space as they like?
If they have a rule against gatekeeping gender identities and pronouns in their own instance, don’t they have a right to remove offenders from their servers?
You’re all over this topic today, maybe just take a second and listen to what the community is saying. You’ve more than said your piece.
And what about queer people who don’t play the pronoun police power tripping game? We should just go fuck ourselves I guess
Don’t non-binary people have a right to moderate their own space as they like?
Sure, though it seems as if their right extends to not being satirized in other communities for being power-tripping bastards. Don’t they have a right to not be criticized for stifling any discussion and banning people based on vibes and posting history, using thought-terminating cliches in place of arguments? Well, it seems they do.
Maybe it is? Don’t non-binary people have a right to moderate their own space as they like?
Is there a group out there that doesn’t have the right to moderate their own space ‘as they like’?
If they have a rule against gatekeeping gender identities and pronouns in their own instance, don’t they have a right to remove offenders from their servers?
“They have the right” and “It is always the correct call” are two entirely different concepts.
You’re all over this topic today, maybe just take a second and listen to what the community is saying. You’ve more than said your piece.
Yeah, well maybe I’m fucking pissed that I just watched a user get harassed out of the Fediverse because Blahaj wants to play harassment games on other people’s instances, and that I’m the one who had to fucking bring it up to be discussed. Maybe I don’t like the idea that if I stayed quiet this all would’ve been swept under the rug.
Jesus
I haven’t a clue what event you’re referring to even though I feel as though I’ve encountered nothing but your comments today. If your goal is to discuss a specific abuse then you’ve done a piss poor job of it.
I’d recommend reaching out to @[email protected] if you think there’s been that severe of an abuse that’s happened, and the community mod hasn’t addressed it well enough.
Honestly, though, it just seems like you have an axe to grind and you’re taking it out on everyone else. Either settle it with the admins or cool off a bit, you’re souring the space for everyone by flaming out like this.
I haven’t a clue what event you’re referring to even though I feel as though I’ve encountered nothing but your comments today.
I’ve summarized the events in this thread alone at least twice.
My opinions on xenogender aside, the fact that Blahaj defenders, in this very comm, harassed a trans user into leaving the Fediverse has me fuming, and rightfully so in my opinion. And they play it off as “[The harassed user] deserved it.” even now. That is pretty core to the anger I feel right now.
Uh, considering recent events, where Blahaj defenders dogpiled a trans person on another instance for disagreeing with them, you sure about that
Most of my comments have been refutations to specific arguments put forth in the context of those events.
What user was it?
Do you have something more specific than your (purely objective) recounting of what happened? A link to it?
At the moment, I’m not sure I’d trust you if you told me the sky was blue
https://lemmy.world/post/26286098
It’s one of the most recent threads on this comm.
Boy you sure are pissed you got blocked before getting to say a slur.
Boy you sure are pissed you got blocked before getting to say a slur.
what
The way I see it, is that the rules and aim of the instance are all written out pretty fucking clearly and people on a platform dominated by longform text don’t really have an excuse for not being able to comprehend it. Like seriously, I had been using Lemmy for two days when I checked out Blåhaj, and I feel like I understood then already because it’s not hard and English is my native language.
So that said, when I see people complaining about it, I think they’re either fucking stupid, or they’re probably these ‘free speech’ people that want the right to go around insulting everyone without consequences (while doing the most epic pearl clutching the moment anyone insults them).
As far as I’m concerned, moderators and admins doing exactly what is clearly fucking written in the description and rules is not power abuse.
I was banned as a queer person for saying that the genderless pronoun “they/them” does not undermine someone’s gender and is just using English as intended.
They’re out to fucking brunch while we’re about to be genocided im america. It’s disgusting having this level of trolling run a queer space. There needs to be an alternative queer space where free speech is tolerated.
And yeah, I’m mad as hell about it and not backing down. These petulant children who run queer spaces these days put us all at risk when they protect trolling neopronouns and non human identities and kick actual queers out. For “gatekeeping”. Fuck blahaj.
Someone was banned yesterday who didn’t even participate in the instance.
That person seems to be an alt wanted to rehash the whole 196 debacle
So that said, when I see people complaining about it, I think they’re either fucking stupid, or they’re probably these ‘free speech’ people that want the right to go around insulting everyone without consequences (while doing the most epic pearl clutching the moment anyone insults them).
I was accused of being a transphobe on a comm that wasn’t even in Blahaj. I defended myself. For that, I was banned. Another poster, a trans user, made a comment. For that, they were dogpiled by Blahaj defenders, called a fascist and a transphobe, and then banned. Now Blahaj defenders want this to not be discussed under any circumstances.
Who here wants the right to go around insulting everyone without consequences?
Who here wants the right to go around insulting everyone without consequences?
Haven’t you figured out by now that’s the strawman argument of any queer person who wants to feel oppression and be offended?
Now Blahaj defenders want this to not be discussed under any circumstances.
I don’t think they’re saying you can’t discuss it, or they’re going to ban or defederate you for trying to talk about it, or anything like that. They’re just saying that, now that the issue has been discussed a bunch of times in this community with nothing getting accomplished other than a big productive-conclusion-free food fight, they’d like to (or they are proposing to) prohibit future repetitions of the exact same food fight. I think this is one of the rare times when “you can still talk about it, you just can’t do it here anymore” has a good amount of validity.
And like I say, I think the users are much more the issue here than the moderation. I think “how do we manage to get along on the fediverse” may be a better way to approach it than “don’t you agree that the mods of blahaj are terrible.”
Who here wants the right to go around insulting everyone without consequences?
That’s sort of what I’m saying. A lot of people on lemmy do want to have that right, and it’s not super-important (apparently) within the consensus culture to say they’re not allowed to. The boundaries of what’s acceptable behavior are often in very weird places, to me.
I don’t think they’re saying you can’t discuss it, or they’re going to ban or defederate you for trying to talk about it, or anything like that.
Proposal from OP, one of the mods (who, in fairness to them, is very hard put on by all this pointless fucking drama that they get to get hit with without even being involved)
that we no longer accept posts about this topic in this community; and
we also remove previous posts on this topic from the community.
One of the most upvoted replies:
I agree, this community should be a place to discuss mod abuse, not bellyache over transphobia and hate speech being censored or being banned from it. Such discourse makes this community extremely toxic and unusable to vulnerable groups, it also creates inherent bias here favoring alt-right shitheads.
They’re just saying that, now that the issue has been discussed a bunch of times in this community with nothing getting accomplished other than a big productive-conclusion-free food fight, they’d like to (or they are proposing to) prohibit future repetitions of the exact same food fight.
The reason why it is production-free is because Blahaj defenders swarm the comm every time it happens. If the position is “Users are sabotaging discussions they don’t want to happen, so we should just not have those discussions”, then all you’ve done is reward toxic behavior.
(who, in fairness to them, is very hard put on by all this pointless fucking drama that they get to get hit with without even being involved)
Yeah that’s part of my POV lol.
we also remove previous posts on this topic from the community.
Yeah, deleting past posts is silly I think. I don’t agree with that part.
I agree, this community should be a place to discuss mod abuse, not bellyache over transphobia and hate speech being censored or being banned from it. Such discourse makes this community extremely toxic and unusable to vulnerable groups, it also creates inherent bias here favoring alt-right shitheads.
Yeah, that’s a bunch of bullshit. The only reason I didn’t get in an argument with that person is (1) life is short (2) like I was saying, there are clearly a bunch of good-faith people who are sort of twisted up with certain words and definitions, such that they’ll interpret anyone trying to disagree with that person as transphobia. That’s the whole point of them being so forceful about defining anyone disagreeing with them in a very particular way. It lays the groundwork for anyone who’s an “ally” to misinterpret any disagreement.
I think the solution to that has to come in some other form than just having a big sprawling slapfight with them. The chance of them seeing reason about it seems near 0, and I think the sum total impact of the slapfight on other people who are observing it will just be to drive them a little further into their echo-chamber.
The reason why it is production-free is because Blahaj defenders swarm the comm every time it happens. If the position is “Users are sabotaging discussions they don’t want to happen, so we should just not have those discussions”, then all you’ve done is reward toxic behavior.
Correct. I’m not saying it’s not a problem. I’m saying that having big frequent slapfights about it will not solve the problem (and yes, partly specifically because at this point there’s a whole crew of users who’ve I guess been amped-up and trained to come in and vigorously inflame the slapfight any time one happens.) The best I can come up with is:
- Having a more serious conversation about what type of culture we want to establish here, without coming out of the gate and announcing, effectively, that anyone who’s a supporter of one particular instance is “bad.”
- Changing the tradition of moderation so that there’s not an expectation of someone standing over the comments needing to delete anything that is “bad” before someone sees it, and has a total meltdown and can’t get out of bed for the rest of the day.
Neither of those are simple things to do. I’m just saying that that type of conversation seems more likely to lead to a good solution to the badness that you’re seeing, than is just vocally hassling the blahaj admins and users every time this same issue comes up.
Blahaj defenders swarm the comm every time it happens
Banned users like yourself also flood the thread every time. I don’t see how that’s any different.
Banned users like yourself also flood the thread every time. I don’t see how that’s any different.
What, all three of us? Clearly we’re mass downvoting Blahaj defenders and mass-upvoting our Banned Comrades™. Hell, I was only added to that banned list the other day.
I agree, this community should be a place to discuss mod abuse, not bellyache over transphobia and hate speech being censored or being banned from it. Such discourse makes this community extremely toxic and unusable to vulnerable groups, it also creates inherent bias here favoring alt-right shitheads.
I think @[email protected] would very much agree with this decision as well.
Ada is in favor of banning dissent
not bellyache over transphobia and hate speech being censored or being banned from it
Literally the comment you wrote immediately before this one involved you deriding bad faith arguments.
I agree, this community should be a place to discuss mod abuse, not bellyache over transphobia and hate speech being censored or being banned from it. Such discourse makes this community extremely toxic and unusable to vulnerable groups, it also creates inherent bias here favoring alt-right shitheads.
“It’s not mod abuse if I think they had it coming for Wrongthink, and even discussing the possibility should be banned.”
“It’s not mod abuse if I think they had it coming for Wrongthink, and even discussing the possibility should be banned.”
“I’m just going to ignore every point he makes and make up some worthless garbage about banning by disagreement because I can’t address Draconic’s actual points”
“I’m just going to ignore every point he makes and make up some worthless garbage about banning by disagreement because I can’t address Draconic’s actual points”
The issue brought up by these threads is whether moderator action was justified or not; whereas you are saying the very topic is verboten and makes this place “toxic” and “unusable” as you harass marginalized folk who commit the crime of disagreeing with you. The point you’re making is in favor of a topic ban on YPTB. Hence “and even discussing the possibility should be banned.” I’m sorry that you don’t understand what you yourself are advocating for.
You got your answer long ago. You Deserved It, They Deserved it. You and them are indeed gatekeeping other people’s identities and accusing them of being evil for identifying that way. Also for the record calling people out for gatekeeping and hostility is not “harassing minorities” people don’t get a free pass because they’re trans sweetie, if they’re gatekeeping assholes they get called out. Whether they scream bigotry afterwards or not is their choice but when they chose to falsely scream bigotry it says more about them than the person calling them out, and ironically puts them in that bad situation of being harmful since crying wolf about transphobia ends up being more harmful than helpful.
You got your answer long ago. You Deserved It, They Deserved it.
Yes, I know you think they deserved to be harassed by you and your pals, but generally in this comm the question is about moderator action.
You and them are indeed gatekeeping other people’s identities and accusing them of being evil for identifying that way.
Fucking what.
Also for the record calling people out for gatekeeping and hostility is not “harassing minorities” people don’t get a free pass because they’re trans sweetie, if they’re gatekeeping assholes they get called out. Whether they scream bigotry afterwards or not is their choice but when they chose to falsely scream bigotry it says more about them than the person calling them out, and ironically puts them in that bad situation of being harmful since crying wolf about transphobia ends up being more harmful than helpful.
God, that’s some painful fucking irony, to say that with no self-awareness. Bravo.
You’re being obtuse and I hope when things cool down you’re able to see the harm this behavior is causing in this specific circumstance and also more generally. I understand that you probably have good intentions but I think you’re either very misguided, trolling, reacting without thinking through the impact of your behavior, or some combination of these things, and I do feel like the ban was warranted especially considering the fit you’re throwing. I have respect for the involvement you have in sustaining and contributing platform and the effort you clearly put into it, and I have seen you say things I really agreed with, but this is too much for me. This is not how you encourage left unity and safe and sustainable practices that support as many people as possible. I know you know about the paradox of tolerance.
You’re being obtuse and I hope when things cool down you’re able to see the harm this behavior is causing in this specific circumstance and also more generally.
A trans user was just harassed off the Fediverse by these people, man. Is that harm invisible? I’m bitching about people doing that. That’s harmful?
I understand that you probably have good intentions but I think you’re either very misguided, trolling, reacting without thinking through the impact of your behavior, or some combination of these things, and I do feel like the ban was warranted especially considering the fit you’re throwing.
My ban’s not the issue, here. When it was locked the other day, I was content to let that be it. The ban was a minor thing; annoying and shitty, but ultimately not meaning much considering that, as mentioned in the OP, I didn’t even use Blahaj anymore.
If you think my ban was warranted, that’s fine. But “We shouldn’t discuss Blahaj anymore”, as in the comment I was replying to, is not.
I know you know about the paradox of tolerance.
Sure. You tolerate Nazis, they’ll take over and won’t tolerate you.
Where are the Nazis, here?
Because it looks to me an awful lot like infinite purity tests inflicted even on users outside of the Blahaj instance, combined with sustained harassment; neither of which encourage left unity or safe and sustainable practices that support as many people as possible.
Where are the Nazis, here?
Luckily I don’t see many here (Lemmy), and if I do I am prepared to confront them in whatever way is required. Please point me in their direction if you know of any. I hope you’re not calling the people who are upset by this situation Nazis, because I haven’t seen any behavior that would warrant that and it would be very alarming disappointing if that was happening here in a digital space I have come to feel safer in than most others, and would warrant an evaluation of what I am doing here, and I hope that I haven’t been spending my time reaching out and talking to and just associating with people who hold those beliefs.
A trans user was just harassed off the Fediverse by these people
I saw some of the comments that person was making. If they have to go somewhere else to learn how to respect spaces specifically curated by and for trans people that’s fine with me, I didn’t get the feeling they (or for that matter, you) were willing or able to do so at this point, at least in this specific case in the way that was asked.
And please don’t throw in my face again their (or for that matter, your own) marginalized status, it feels to me like it’s being used as some kind of gotcha or get out of jail free card, and that is disrespectful as much as most anything that has happened in this thread.
I am hoping that by adding my perspective others might feel supported or safer here, and others yet will hopefully see that horizontal harm is a thing that we have to be aware of and identify and do the work to minimize, internally and externally (referring to both the harm and the work).
I’m bitching about people doing that.
I am not talking directly to anyone but you, and here, you are talking to me, please keep that in mind. It’s fine to complain and always good to speak out against harm coming unwarranted or unfairly to others, but I’m talking to you about your behavior.
Please feel free to reach out for further 1:1 discussion, or not if you do not want to. It’s about time we end the the perpetuation of harm in online and physical spaces and in the systems that we live under. Please also feel free to reach out for support with other efforts towards that goal or other similar ones.
You seem like the kinda guy who says calling Nazis Nazis devalues the word Nazi.
… because I summarized someone else’s position accurately?
If I might make a suggestion, assuming it wouldn’t cause more of a moderation nightmare: Maintain a list of soft banned topics that get relegated to a weekly “containment” thread. Complaints about explicitly stated instance wide rules get routed there. People have their space to complain but it keeps things cleaner. It also still allows this place to serve as kind of a watch for abuse. Just because it’s a clearly stated instance wide rule, or that anyone can pick up and go somewhere else on the fediverse, doesn’t necessarily mean it’s not being abused.
Either way, I despise the idea of deleting the previous threads. There’s nothing illegal and people should be able to draw their own conclusions about those shitshows. I think the previous threads should be locked to prevent any further comments requiring mod work, but left up. They are important context to this whole mess in case it flares up again. Really sucks coming into something late and being attacked for asking questions that are only obvious if you’re already up to date, that come across as attacks to people already in it, but you have no way of knowing any better about.
I also have some concerns about this comm if certain topics start becoming forbidden. It limits the ability of this space to allow the community to pass judgement on and discuss mod/admin actions. But not limiting could end up with this com just devolving into a complaint quarantine for leapords ate my face “contestants”.
Tl;dr- don’t ban topic (maybe a weekly quaratine thread for certain topics), lock old threads and leave up
