Oh no, my miserable life that’s devoid of any connection and anyone altogether otherwise *at least contains a friend.
What the fuck man, is this a real concern average people have that I’m way too fucking alienated to understand
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I’m afraid of the friend zone. By that I mean I’m afraid of making friends and have severe social anxiety
For me the way I see it as a guy, being friends with someone, while secretly or not so secretly holding out for something more romantically and/or sexually, is just disingenuous. It also comes across as really needy, desperate behaviour. Which, in my personal experience, is the biggest turn off for women. So you’re not going to change their mind this way. The true motivations behind the “friendship” are extremely transparent and plain for everyone else to see. People can tell what’s going on, you know what you’re doing, the woman knows, all your mutual friends know on some level. There’s a reason “orbiters” get made fun of constantly for orbiting a specific woman.
If you still want to be friends with the person you have a crush on after being rejected or realising that it can’t happen for whatever reason, you’re going to have to fully accept that they don’t see you in that way. Then the friendship is longer based off of the idea that you can have a relationship. Failure to accept that will doom any future friendship for the reasons I’ve listed above. If you cant accept that, it’s probably better to have less contact with the person or even stop seeing them, instead of going though the motions in some “friendship” which is built off of the idea/fantasy that you’ll eventually date them.
This is a good fucking comment
Yea, this is 100% it. If you can’t kill your romantic feelings for them friendship is just not going to work. You’ll just be hurting the whole time you’re with them, especially if they get involved with someone else and like you said it can definitely stray into creepy behavior. It’s a shitty situation for both parties and of course it’d be great if we could just switch those feelings off but that’s not always an easy thing to do.
People say this, but let’s be honest the “friend zone” is something most people experience, it just go cringe to use because of the way incels use it. Having romantic feelings for someone while trying to have a plutonic relationship with them is a frustrating thing to navigate. The issue is people getting an immature victimhood complex about it. Also if it something you can’t handle, better off just avoiding the person and trying to move on. Hoping plutonic friendship leads to romantic love is usually a fools errand.
a plutonic relationship with them is a frustrating thing to navigate
well sure, in caves you need to really pay attention to stay safe. it’s not a good place for kissing
plutonic
What’s the word I’m looking for?
While I have indeed been 'friend zone’d, I’ve had more than three platonic friendships turn into romantic relationships in my lifetime, which is the majority of my actual relationships. Obviously don’t rely on it, maybe the key was that I went into all those friendships fully accepting that we might only ever be friends and that was fine.
Hoping plutonic friendship leads to romantic love is usually a fools errand.
I agree with everything you said, except this one here, every functioning long term relationship (and i mean decades long term) i saw in my life was evolved from this. Platonic friends are better at solving their problems in general, way better than people who came together cause they wanted to fuck each other.
People say this, but let’s be honest the “friend zone” is something most people experience, it just go cringe to use because of the way incels use it. Having romantic feelings for someone while trying to have a plutonic relationship with them is a frustrating thing to navigate. The issue is people getting an immature victimhood complex about it.
Yeah the whole incel thing has really poisoned the well on a legitimate issue like this. It’s kind of funny how some leftists will talk about context when it comes to the faults of former AES states but on other issues (especially ones like this, i.e. dating) they completely ignore context and sound like your average lib. Oh well I guess we all have to continue to grow.
Also if it something you can’t handle, better off just avoiding the person and trying to move on. Hoping plutonic friendship leads to romantic love is usually a fools errand.
I mean it works out for some people I suppose (for ex UlyssessT in this thread) but yeah I think remaining friends while still holding out hope is disingenuous.
Yeah the whole incel thing has really poisoned the well on a legitimate issue like this.
I mean, I don’t think it’s a “legitimate issue” in the sense that it’s something society needs to deal it, it’s an interpersonal thing that sucks but that individuals need to deal with in the best way they can.
I mean, I don’t think it’s a “legitimate issue” in the sense that it’s something society needs to deal it, it’s an interpersonal thing that sucks but that individuals need to deal with in the best way they can.
I think it’s both. Just like any other issue that socialists talk about, like racism, sexism, classism, etc. They can all be “dealt with” on an interpersonal level, but ultimately there needs to be a societal change.
Just like any other issue that socialists talk about, like racism, sexism, classism, etc. They can all be “dealt with” on an interpersonal level, but ultimately there needs to be a societal change.
what societal change do you think needs to occur about this issue?
Probably making it so boys and men have emotional support other than their partner or therapist and generally teaching them not to treat relationships as status signifiers or commodities. Unfortunately, that probably has to start young and we already have a bunch of shitty men floating around
relationships as status signifiers
ugh well put & good post.
One of the examples I remember is from r4r or one of the nerd dating spheres where someone wanted a partner who was smart, but not as smart as them. Obviously, they wanted her to smart enough to impress their friends (the ones who they constantly jockey for clout about intelligence with), but didn’t really want to respect her or feel intellectually threatened. Which also says a lot about what they think of their friends, let alone their prospective partner they were looking for.
teaching them not to treat relationships as status signifiers or commodities.
Well the problem is that relationships aren’t status signifiers. They are status, in the most concrete way possible.
Edit: Like it’s an old truism, that certain kinds of guys will deliberately pursue making money more than actually trying to build their social skills directly because it can open more doors for you socially & “romantically”.
Edit 2: What I’m getting at here is that “status” is an inherently social concept. It has to do with the people who you interact with on a day-to-day basis, & what you can expect from your interactions with them. In this sense, yes, somebody who doesn’t have a lot of friends or any romantic partners, is objectively socially inferior to somebody who does. They are, by definition, valued less by the the people around them & are less socially integrated, as a consequence of that. And that itself will usually be the consequence of the person in question possessing some quality that is considered inferior by the society they live in.
The whole issue I think is something that just isn’t really well addressed by any contemporary discussion on the matter, I think.
what societal change do you think needs to occur about this issue?
Maybe reverse the trend of turning dating into a commodified market for one. Apps like Tinder have really made looks be the sole factor in whether you even want to talk to someone. It’s become so gamified that we essentially treat potential partners as some kind of stock investment. Also the digital world has really isolated us and we rarely even talk to people anymore except through text or instagram. I think electronic communication is great (I mean here I am commenting on hexbear) but not at the expense of real life contact (hence the “touch grass” meme). Maybe have community centers that actually appeal to people? I dunno, perhaps we need to look at what the Soviets and other cultures do to help people meet each other (https://youtu.be/teZw4-trPuE?feature=shared).
I actually agree with most of the above while at the same time I see the “being friends with someone that is otherwise not romantically interested is bad/impossible” take as being the equivalent of throwing dirt into the rejection wound. Maybe a friendship is impossible for an individual but systemically assuming it is only makes the dating scene a little bit worse by making it more antagonistic.
what societal change do you think needs to occur about this issue?
IMO, I think it’s worthwhile for society to take an active interest in helping integrate kids & young people who are lagging behind socially. There are programs that claim to try to do this today, but I didn’t really ever get any help, I just got told what to do & that I’d go in a windowless box if I didn’t do that.
If you get to be 30 & you’re still in that position, like I am idk how much there is that can be done, because a lot of the contributing factors to the issue have become ossified/terminal.
Socialization is very much a “rich get richer, poor get poorer” (if you’ll excuse the analogy) situation, in my experience.
I think remaining friends while still holding out hope
I agree here specifically because the “holding out hope” part is, both for the friendship and for the person maintaining that hope instead of accepting the friendship, or moving on without the friendship if they can’t, which is also preferable to “holding out hope.”
Accept the friendship if you can, earnestly work toward accepting the friendship if you’re not all the way there, or move on. Those are the best choices.
It depends how long the platonic relationship has been. If it only been a few weeks or even months if you don’t see each other often, moving over to a romantic relationship can go really well. If you’re trying to turn a years long platonic relationship into a romantic one, yeah in most cases that I’d a fools errand.
And yet pretty much everyone I became platonic with I develop a crush on / slightly fall for if they remain cool.
As I said, the “friend zone” as a concept is generally a cognitohazard. Having romantic interest turned down hurts, yes, but anticipating “friendzoning” and seeing it as some antagonistic experience that must result in a complete cutting off of the other person just raises the antagonism in the dating pool that much more.
It fucking sucks that so few cishet men are willing to try an actual nonromantic friendship with a cishet woman and I think normalizing the idea of “if no sex, then disappear” just makes that worse.
Growing up gay, I would have done anything if it meant the maximum consequence for confessing my feelings to someone who wasn’t interested was a “no”. Usually the best I could expect was a reaction so out the fucking wazoo, it’s as if I had shot their grandma to death in front of them. Worst case would be my brain becoming a plaything for a med student by next morning.
I’ve got a feeling that if I’d reacted the same way to a straight lady asking me out, society would suddenly become enlightened as to the proper way to behave.
It fucking sucks that so few cishet men are willing to try an actual nonromantic friendship with a cishet woman and I think normalizing the idea of “if no sex, then disappear” just makes that worse.
I didn’t consider this angle until now, but I don’t think forcing people’s emotions to conform to what you want is an effective or stable way to fight misogyny.
but I don’t think forcing people’s emotions to conform to what you want is an effective or stable way to fight misogyny
Neither is normalizing the idea of resenting the other person’s emotions that doesn’t mutually share in those emotions.
I have trouble telling between my crushes and squishes sometimes, so I just choose to label the feelings based on whether the two of us feel like getting naughty. If we’re not doing naughty stuff together then it’s a squish, and I choose to be happy to be spending platonic time with them
Dang I’m getting old wtf is a squish
It’s a persistent feeling of platonic attraction towards a person. The platonic equivalent of a crush.
Haven’t you ever had a friend that you were excited and happy to spend time with in the initial stages of the relationship? One who gave you butterflies in your stomach, but who you didn’t want to date?
Platonic crush
?
I mean, if I’m romantically interested in someone and they say that they’re not romantically interested in me, that sucks.
Emotions are not rational. I can cognitively know “I am not entitled to this person’s romantic interest and having them in my life as a friend is just as valuable as being in a romantic relationship with them” but my emotions will still feel disappointed and saddened because my romantic feelings aren’t being reciprocated. Confessing your feelings to someone is also a huge moment of emotional vulnerability, and being rejected in that situation can make one feel powerless and inadequate.
Are you gonna tell me that if you confess your feelings to someone and they give you the whole “Let’s just be friends” response, your reaction is “Oh yay, I made a friend”?
[Medium: Failure] — “The friend-zone” is the single worst place any wöman could dare to put you in. It’s where you’re sent when — for some unknown, female reason — she doesn’t value you as a potential mate. That she values someone with better mate qualities than you. That’s what the friend-zone is; it’s wöman’s way of saying “fuck you”.
— It’s really that bad? — Of course, bröther. The gynocentrists want you to think it’s fine. Break your conditioning. Keep pushing. Your persistence will prove how much you deserve her.I love Disco internal dialogue posting.
Art Moderne
Amazing, this posting is on par with the game at this point.
God this thread is trash
I hate the term friendzoned.
I also hate the idea that people should be expected to stay friends with someone, even if being rejected made their emotions feels complicated.
Nobody’s experiences are universal. Some people can handle rejection fine. Other people take months to get over things.
And nobody’s emotions are more important than anyone else’s.
The important thing is, that consent goes both ways. You can’t just expect someone to be in a friendship with you because they asked you out, just like how they can’t expect you to be in a romantic relationship with them because they asked you out. Romantic attraction does not always come with a side serving of platonic attraction (even though it often does). The flip side of this- forcing someone to be in a romantic relationship because they wanted to be friends with you- is obviously and absurdly toxic. Why is expecting someone to stay friends with you any different? Everyone deserves friends and lovers (if they want them), but nobody should be obligated to provide.
And none of this “change your emotions” shit. You might have been able to adjust your viewpoint with a friend yourself, but that’s your own experience. Not everyone is going to be able to change their emotions and nobody should be expected to. Being told to just… change your feelings like that is insanely invalidating. Sick of this “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” mentality being applied to interpersonal relationships. Don’t.
None of this is to say that it’s impossible or even usually difficult to be friends with someone you’ve asked out, just that there should be room for all emotions, and people are allowed to break up both friendships and relationships for stupid reasons. Yeah, it’s frustrating, and that’s valid, too, but relationships and friendships where one person doesn’t want to be there, even if it’s for a stupid reason, won’t end well
And don’t get me started on some of the weird comments here that smell like incel screeds. Like I don’t think us calling a white guy misogynistic is going to cause fascism.
Bit idea.
- Find people who think “the friend zone” is incel-speak for “when femoids won’t fuck me”.
- Find people who think “the friend zone” is just an emotionally ambiguous attraction.
- Put them in a thread and let them fight.
It would be so funny
Giving this a bump because the extremes have widened.
It is now “the OP is mocking anyone who’s ever experienced unrequited love” vs “anyone complaining about this post feels entitled to women’s bodies”.
Post machine go brrrrr
Did some one say… extreme?
I consider myself a radical centrist on the wacky axis
Ambiguity over definitions is the lifeblood of struggle sessions
emotionally ambiguous attraction
It’s kind of unfair to assume the person who said they aren’t romantically interested is being “ambiguously attracted.”
No, like, i don’t think they’re talking about the person being asked as being the one being emotionally ambiguous- they’re talking about the person doing the asking. It’s emotionally ambiguous to ask someone out and then have them say they just want to be friends.
It’s possible to be friends from then on but it’s difficult and definitely ambiguous.
The people arguing from that perspective aren’t talking about relationships where someone’s been rejected or even necessarily would be rejected if they tried. That’s kind of my point. People are talking about very disparate things and calling them the same name.
Then that’s also ambiguous and doesn’t really do the concept/meme of “friendzone” as a bad thing many favors.
PSA: if you are orbiting a person in “the friend zone” hoping to wear them down for a chance then i can promise you everyone is aware of it and everyone laughs at you for being a creep. Grow and change as a person.
couplehood is the modern religion and by that awesomely glib take i mean: there is tremendous socialization to find purpose and meaning (and absolution) in “the special someone”, which has only seemed to heighten in the parts of society that want to stay on program while our institutions fail and the climate crisis looms. all that to say, i understand the desperation especially among the young. so much mass culture (TV, movies, music) tells them that the only thing they will ever do that matters is find someone who completes them (because of course they’re incomplete as they are!)… it’s a very efficient way to get everyone (single and not) out there consuming.
but of course, i agree completely with you, especially as i’ve gotten older. i value my friends and treasure making new ones in whatever context or however long it works out. i would rather have a new limited scope work friend to joke around with than a new ex- from a fraught relationship where at least one of us was not paying attention to the warnings of a bad match.
To maybe add a little. Alienation under capitalism is such that it forces all care to fall to the insular family unit and destroys other modes of material support. For instance, most help with housing, food, and care come from blood relationships. Especially from those lines that will support accumulation. Capitalism like the shit prion disease it is folds all into its like.
That being said, finding a friend is somewhat a luxury but finding family is to find a survival tool in this hellscape.
Also people really love to fuck. So finding out the person you’re trying to fuck doesn’t want to fuck you is kind of a bummer. Not to try and justify the toxic levels it goes to but it can be disappointing.
(because of course they’re incomplete as they are!)
Aren’t we though, isn’t that the whole point of having social solidarity with other people? If you don’t need anyone else, why would you ever care about the state of society?
Why wouldn’t you just be a Randian, then?
it is implying that the only way to have social solidarity is through a romantic relationship, when in reality, the way many people in the US practice romance is to let other social connections wither and make one other person their entire aocial support network.
contrary to the messaging of mass culture, the opposite of couplehood is not loneliness or solitude.
Once upon a time I was scared of the friend zone until I realized that’s such a shitty thing to be afraid of. Like, oh no, you’re such good friends with someone they’re not willing to potentially damage your relationship with one another by pushing it further. The friend zone is a good thing. Enjoy platonic love, share that love and relish in it.
The “friend zone” is also harder than it seems
It’s hard as fuck to make new friends as an adult because so many are just trying to keep their head above water
It’s pretty easy. Just be their friend. In my experience as a boring straight man, my women friends have gotten me laid more than I have myself. When you make friends, you make more friends. Ask them to hook you up with someone single.
Friends are nice to have. And it’s ok if someone isn’t interested in you. Move on, fuck their friends. lol
im a pathetic loser unhealthily obsessed with their nearly unbroken lifelong loneliness and i dont really use the friend zone as a mental archetype or schema or trope, i just kinda emit jealousy waves at every happy person in line of sight/thought. even aside from romantic or sexual partners, it sucks to see other people that have the things i always wanted but never had, like social acceptance, physical fitness, opportunities and experiences during youth, and financial success. having non-romantic/sexual friends usually helps deal with these kinds of negative thoughts by forcing me to adopt a more socially acceptable persona, which gives me something else to focus on besides my own endless self deprecating internal monologue. but still i never seem to have friends irl that have the same intellectual/aesthetic interests/hobbies as me, as nice as they are otherwise.
Are you some sort of identity thief who is living my life
Are you coming to steal my skin
Socialism is when you take an archetypical trope, (unrequited love), common to every time and culture, and dismiss it w/ performative, incredibly hamfisted, body-and-spaces discourse (whiteness, toxic masculinity).
the idea of the friend zone is definitely not just good old unrequited love. the unspoken implication is that women only like “bad guys” and thus you should never be nice to women, lest you end up in the friend zone
Socialism is when you ignore the fact that tropes can play out in many different ways and that particular manifestations of it can in fact reflect broader social issues
I grow to dislike the concept. Notice how it focuses only on the one who wants to pursue a sexual/romantic relationship, as if platonic relationship is somehow lesser. Why don’t we ever hear about the “sexual zone” or “romantic zone” about people who desire a deep platonic relationship with someone but who are placed in the “sexual/romantic zone” by that someone? It hurts to be previously friends with someone who gives you the cold shoulder once they find out you don’t want to fuck them. Why should the sexual zoned person’s feelings perspective and feelings be cast aside for the friend zoned person’s feelings and perspective?
I think the problem with this is that someone choosing to not be friends with another person because the feelings are too confusing isn’t an active prioritization of their emotions over the other person. It’s setting a boundary because they know they’re not in a place where crossing it would feel ok to them.
We shouldn’t prioritize romantic feelings over platonic ones, but we also shouldn’t force people who are uncomfortable with being friends with someone because it’s hard to quash their romantic feelings to continue to be friends with that person.
If neither person wants what the other person wants then parting ways might suck but it would suck a lot less than the alternative
I don’t think people should feel forced to pursue friendships (or relationships) that they don’t feel emotionally comfortable with. It sucks a LOT but people should have the right to cut off friendships and relationships for any reason. They have to be a willing participant for it to work, anyways
But to be honest, I’m torn. You’re completely right, but I don’t think that’s incompatible with what I’m saying, either. It just seems like a shit situation, honestly.
I’m tempted to say we just avoid judging anyone who doesn’t turn misogynist in these situations.
And, thinking about it, we SHOULD normalize being friends with exes or people who rejected you. I think there’s room for doing that and giving people space if they feel uncomfortable with pursuing a friendship anyways.
It hurts to be previously friends with someone who gives you the cold shoulder once they find out you don’t want to fuck them.
I guess in that case there was never really a friendship to begin with.
There was one parody Tumblr post about being put in the “girlfriend zone”.
Why don’t we ever hear about the “sexual zone” or “romantic zone” about people who desire a deep platonic relationship with someone but who are placed in the “sexual/romantic zone” by that someone?
I think the kids are calling this a “situationship” these days.
A “situationship” is an ambiguous dating relationship where one person maybe wants to get serious and the other doesn’t want to talk about it. Risk factors include “short-term open to long” in tinder bio
edit: whoops I forgot about the incel conception of it, that if you’re friendly to a woman she’ll put you in the “unfuckable” box. Anyone who has dated a friend knows that just isn’t true lol.
This is a struggle session tier controversial topic, but “friend zone” is what happens when
(a) you don’t want to date someone, but are afraid to reject them completely. A lot of people soften the blow by saying “oh we can still be friends”, in the lying polite way you’d say “we should hang out more!” before never following up on it. Especially prevalent among women, because men are dangerous, and especially prevalent when you don’t want to rock the boat in a friend group. It’s actually quite difficult to be friends with an ex or failed romantic prospect even if both people genuinely do want to be friends; you have to manage strong emotions without being able to directly change them.
(b) the rejected party either doesn’t understand or refuses to accept the rejection. Classically, this leads to men trying to “win over” women who don’t want them, and honestly probably don’t even want to be friends now that the dude is being weird about it, while thinly pretending to just be a good platonic friend. Let me get that door for you mlady.
It’s totally legit to want to date someone but not be “just friends” with them. It sucks to lose a friend that way, it’s happened to me, but we’re all adults here and sometimes people have enough friends already or don’t want to be friends with you badly enough to deal with any additional heartache from working through those emotions.
