Hi im new here, cause im trans, also a bit into leftism (I like the red vibe and hate capitalism) but not committed mostly because im new to politics in general. This is a burner because the whole subject seems very heated and I don’t want my main account banned.
so it was very surprising to me to see commies just… argue? Marxist Leninist, tankie, whatever, just seem to be like other commies, but ya’ll just hate them? I mean didn’t commies like the soviet union? I get China because of the weird capitalism its got, but I thought the soviets were like ya’lls trump card? I mean what else do ya’ll have? I mean I know it had baddies, but I thought ya’ll had like different views on it? I mean there was so much going on they at least have to had done something.
Like apparently the lemmy developers are ‘tankies’, but who cares? They built the thing, and it seems like they’ve just let us do whatever we want, nothing bad right?
It all just seems like different methods. being anarchist is fine (I don’t know what you do at all but it seems like you’re around at least), but being a ‘tankie’ makes you a fascist? Im just very very confused. Didn’t the USSR fight Nazis? I’m not giving them a kiss or anything but they killed quite a lot of Nazis, isn’t that at least kinda good?
I only recently found out that commies even had like different ideologies. I want to get into leftism, but it seems to be about the same as if I just stayed out of it, everyone is spending all the time fighting people, but I thought your whole thing was fight the man, not fight other commies?
And then I see leftists just lackluster in their critiques of America? I mean, anyone knows america hates commies, all of em, beat yall in '91 (honestly suprised yall still here). Now its ‘america is a flawed democracy’ and ‘bad nato but only when they do things’. I thought ya’ll at least had strong opinions? Why can’t you just hate america, thought that was yalls thing?
Its very silly to try to adopt revolutionary things and then like… limp dick it. Like, NATO is a capitalist alliance, shouldn’t commies hate that? Seems very straightforward. I mean I know Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is very bad, but does that mean defending a capitalist state? Yall spend a lot of time arguing for NATO against these tankies (while I don’t understand their position, it seems to at least be in that ‘fuck the US’ thing I thought yall did). Although I see the whole thing as too much for me to understand, some of yall do sort of agree with NATO bad too, but somehow its good for them to fight another capitalist? How’s that doing anything for ya?
Its all very confusing
I admit I care little for yalls squabbles, yall seem to care an awful lot about footnotes in history when the future looks like a big chance. Like I dont know what the hell happened in the Spain civil war, but how does that like change anything? Nobody sides yall commies seem to care about it period. Don’t yall hate capitalism, why then do yall spend half the time getting angry at other commies?
Its very silly in my view, and again very counterproductive
Its souring to get into communism and hear that apparently all the big dudes and big things in it are bags of shit, and I should read a bunch of small guys that only yall seem to know. Like Marx is BIG, but apparently he’s bad now? Like I know its older, but isn’t capitalism? Doesn’t seemed to have changed very much, but the products sure have, but the system is still big guy owns thing, exploits worker, hoards wealth, an that sorta thing. He’s like the floorboards, but now he isn’t? Did yall convene after the 90s and hit a reset on the whole thing? Starting from scratch?
I wanted to ask them their opinions, but they seem a little scary, so Ill talk to yall first. I just wants some clarifications about this issue.
The problem with Tankies is their authoritarianism and their “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” mentality. I could never support a movement that supports horrid dictatorships of any kind. Even as a socialist, I’d always defend a capitalist democracy against a communist dictatorship. If NATO defends a small democratic country against an invasion from its large and powerful neighbor, I’m all for it, even if I’d rather have a European military alliance instead of NATO.
It’s also absurd how they defend countries like China, which has perhaps one of the worst forms of capitalism, because they’re nominally communist.
Even as a socialist, I’d always defend a capitalist democracy against a communist dictatorship.
Now im not one to nitpick, but I don’t think thats something a commie would do right? I mean capitalists winning is supposed to be worse right? Am I thinking of this correctly? I mean thats one of my questions, like yall hate bigwigs but bigwigs are good when they fight the evil commies? Not defending the USSR, but if it was anyone else that seems to be a bad thing happening.
It’s also absurd how they defend countries like China, which has perhaps one of the worst forms of capitalism, because they’re nominally communist.
okay now im nitpicking but didn’t you say youd defend a capitalist country against a communist one, but critique when someone else defended a capitalist one?
Now im not one to nitpick, but I don’t think thats something a commie would do right? I mean capitalists winning is supposed to be worse right? Am I thinking of this correctly? I mean thats one of my questions, like yall hate bigwigs but bigwigs are good when they fight the evil commies?
I’m a Democratic Socialist and I hold the “Democratic” part higher than the “Socialist” bit. A Socialist economy is not worth it, if the price for it is oppression and genocide. Socialism must come from the will of the people, not conquest and murder.
okay now im nitpicking but didn’t you say youd defend a capitalist country against a communist one, but critique when someone else defended a capitalist one?
I’m saying it’s even worse when people calling themselves communist defend not only communist dictatorships, but also capitalist ones. It means they’re just in favor of dictatorships, period. Or they’re just incapable of any critical thinking and defend anything as soon as they see a hammer and sickle.
if the price for it is oppression and genocide
but isn’t socialism its own democracy? Like unions are cool I like having more money. Would suck more to live in a democracy without food or a house than a dictatorship with food or a house, even if they are like concrete blocks and blocks of bread. I mean I don’t control jack anyway, nothing changes. I mean thats one way to look at it, but theres always more to the story i guess.
isn’t that what capitalism is doing right now? I mean if im going to have capitalism hurt everyone a lot, but socialism hurt everyone a bit, isn’t that more okay?
Ya got any books for this? or like a video or smth, I guess, to learn on my breaks.
Yeah I guess so, but it all seems so strange. I mean its a fight for freedom from capitalism and everything for everyone, but it was all just bullshit the whole time? I just guess its depressing that the only thing we got is the same thing we’ve always had.
Hi pal, I’ve stumbled into this really cool trans girl here https://hexbear.net/u/Catradora_Stalinism
She seems to be really into Stalinism. You have no relation to her in any way, do ya?
Otherwise that would mean you were lying to all the people here about who you are and what your beliefs are
Have a nice day!
tldr
“I don’t know shit about anything relating to history or politics, so here’s my rambling nonsense about me not knowing anything.”
Thank you for the enlightenment 😉
I appreciate the courage it took for you to admit that, it took guts kid.
tldr what?
if ya posted a picture I cannot see it
You didn’t have to say anything, but you did, and it helped with absolutely nothing
I mean just answer the question or leave, kiddo
Lol, I’m rarely harsh, but do kindly fuck off.
deleted by creator
idk if a german should be here to discuss like fascism or whatever, seems like a conflict of interest
idk if a german should be here to discuss like fascism or whatever, seems like a conflict of interest
Ohhhhh it’s a troll.
Overplayed your hand with that one.
and theres the nitpicking, fine im whatever you want, just answer the question. Like I said I don’t care about yalls little squabbles
What an incredibly stupid statement.
Don’t feed the troll
You really really need some history lessons.
I mean I did ask yall the questions, would be nice if ya just answered it and went about your way. Ya know, like what ya do for a Q and A post?
I did answer your question. It seems you are the kiddo here
There is a conversation happening, here, and historically
Any attempt to start with a clean slate is gonna be a bad time
Trying to make things simple hasn’t worked, because the most simplistic ideologies tend to be the most violently authoritarian
So we’re squabbling and splitting hairs, because it’s better than getting run over
By, for instance, a tank
By, for instance, a tank
yeah makes sense, they seem to really be trigger happy
That’s where the term “tankie” comes from - which I’d never heard before coming to Lemmy (sorry if I’m explaining something you already knew).
From what I’ve seen, tankies are an extreme brand of communist, like the MAGA folks are an extreme kind of Republicans.
Got it, thank ya for being straightforward
I dont even get half of what youre trying to say. Maybe ask an actual question?
I asked several, like why do ya’ll seem to hate these tankie fellas more than usual? Like they seem to be jus other commies, but we really really hate them or smth.
Im not speakin german, jus answer the title question an thats good enough
again every time I ask a question about this everyone gets very hostile that im not just in the know or smth
Tankies are fascists dressed in red. Idiots who see Stalin’s SSSR and Pooh Bear’s China, and lately, Swollen Baldy’s Russia as utopias and human rights violations, systemic oppression, genocide, torture and rape of ethnic groups, as necessary acts to be celebrated. The term originates from the famous Tiananmen Square photo of the guy standing in front of tanks – tankies would be the people in the tanks.
Tankies are so far off the deep end that it’s impossible to reason with them. The only thing you can do is excise them.
That’s why we do not tolerate tankies.
Tankies are fascists dressed in red. Idiots who see Stalin’s SSSR and Pooh Bear’s China, and lately, Swollen Baldy’s Russia as utopias and human rights violations, systemic oppression, genocide, torture and rape of ethnic groups, as necessary acts to be celebrated.
Dayum I didn’t know that. That seems to be weird, russia aint commie no more. But is being a really mean commie the same as a fash? And rape? I get the rest tho
The term originates from the famous Tiananmen Square photo of the guy standing in front of tanks – tankies would be the people in the tanks.
now I saw another comment that it was from that hungary thing or something, but its from this too?
Tankies are so far off the deep end that it’s impossible to reason with them. The only thing you can do is excise them.
Now this is what I run into every time, isn’t that the same thing you get angry at tankies for? Like ruling everyone else as bad and eliminating them for the revolution?
really mean commie
I never said they were communists. They are simply fascists who think they’re communists, or that their values align with communism. That’s why I’ve included present-day Russia. And yes, murder, rape, and pillage is exactly what the Russian invaders are doing to Ukrainians, and what the Chinese government’s military is doing to Uyghurs.
hungary thing
I guess that’s also fitting. It was the failed revolution of 1956 october 23rd, when organized rebels almost toppled the communist government in Budapest, but soviet tanks arrived and drove them back. It’s not nearly as well-known as Tiananmen Square, though.
isn’t that the same thing you get angry at tankies for?
This is what really pisses me off. You haven’t lived the reality that tankies want to restore and propagate. My great-grandfather fought against them and lost. My grandparents and parents lived under Stalinist rule. I was lucky enough to be born after its collapse.
Tankies are not an ethnicity, religion, or nationality. Nobody’s born a tankie, they pick up stupid and dangerous ideas that get reinforced in their online echo chamber, but without the reality check of having to live in the world they want to create.Ah I see, more of a follow the flag type you say? Shame, I wanted to see if any of those big guns were still around.
Yeah, its all good, just sayin bout where I heard it.
My great-grandfather fought against them and lost.
now wait a second
unless he fought in vietnam and korea, I don’t think they were fighting for us. Soviets were brutal bad guys, but they only fought one war that long ago, and if your grandfather fought against them in it Im sorry but I think he should have followed his leader. The nazis aren’t good guys, you can’t criticize communism as fascism and then talk about your grand dad who fought for fascism
unless there was some other war more than 40 years ago that the soviets fought against someone and won.
I mean that just sounds like a red dont it, that last sentence?
He fought in world war 2 against the enemy that had attacked his country, which happened to be the enemy of the Axis Powers. If you think the complex geopolitical situation of '40s Europe can be resolved by “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” or other reductionisms, you are beyond help.
So I have been reading around in the comments here and I get the distinct impression that you are trolling, or at least attempting to.
You display a weird mix of ignorance and laziness in not reading up on the basics, while you also often try to dumb down or nitpick an answer given to you.
That isn’t how this works, there are no simple answers. Often there are a dozen answers to the same question, depending on who you ask. As a starting point, you could read up (or listen to an audiobook or something) on Marx and his writings. Virtually all leftist movements and ideologies make reference to or are derived from his.
Yeah, you’re right. They’re trolling.
They’re more persistent than the usual low effort stuff, and they’re providing so much down vote bait.
I’m sure they’re having fun, but I wish people wouldn’t take these threads at face value like the discussion is real.
I guess its all trolling now, asking questions. Fuck these computers, everyone acts like its the cold war and the feds are everywhere.
You display a weird mix of ignorance and laziness in not reading up on the basics, while you also often try to dumb down or nitpick an answer given to you.
didn’t change anything up, if you thought I was dumbing them down they must have been pretty dumb anyway.
No simple answers? I know, im just trying to ask why their answer is simple, but yours ain’t. Seems like yall think differently and picked your own sides. Although they seem to have picked a strange one Ill say that.
People are annoyed with you because you want everything a simple look at Wikipedia can teach you, spoon fed to you in the comments.
The whole original post is a collection of uninformed ramblings, and you expect people to engage with it. (You “kinda like the leftist vibe and hate capitalism”? Do you even know what those words actually mean?)
Improve the quality of your questions by acquiring the knowledge to even know what you are talking about on your own, then you will get quality replies.
People are annoyed with you because you want everything a simple look at Wikipedia can teach you, spoon fed to you in the comments.
Good lord yall apparently cant handle a question. Do you have any research besides using a wiki for children? Apparently who gives a shit about learning or anything, you can just spend a second looking at an article edited by plebs and thats good enough according to these chucklefucks.
The whole original post is a collection of uninformed ramblings, and you expect people to engage with it. (You “kinda like the leftist vibe and hate capitalism”? Do you even know what those words actually mean?)
The only uninformed rambling was the mess of comments I got. One recommended a childrens novel!
I like commie shit, I want to get rid of the rich bigwigs and start fixing this mess. Capitalism seems to just be trying to make money, and I hate greedy bastards. I understand that ‘vibe’ means ‘the mood’ and the like. Its not that hard to learn words.
I like commie shit
It’s shit for sure. Communist dictatorships killed people like you everywhere they were. Don’t you have any respect for yourself?
Edit: you still think Animals’ Farm is for kids? You’re the ultimate idiot.
It sounds like you think history ought to be simple and it sounds like you think people’s political views ought to be simple. The reality is that everything is more nuanced, and it takes time and energy to understand. A lot of people, probably people similar to you, don’t want to spend that time and energy. But here you are, so perhaps you are willing to give it a whirl.
To begin with, the enemy of your enemy might not be your friend. Just because the USSR fought against Nazi Germany doesn’t mean that the USSR was run by people that we’d like to have lunch with.
And then it’s important not to think that the USSR in the early 40s is the same as what it was in the late 80s. Countries change over time.
It looks like you want people to hold very strong positions. “Communism is entirely good/bad.” “The US loves freedom.” “Marx is bad.” … In reality, political leaders are smart, and they’re very good at manipulating people who have simplistic absolutist views such as these. It is necessary to pay attention to the details.
And finally, even if I have some very strong belief, if I tried to push it dogmatically on to other people on the internet then they will just block me. It’s often a better strategy to try to discuss things and assume or hope that the other person is going to use their brain, just as you are willing to use yours.
Of course there’s no reaching some folks, and some people are just here to troll, but that’s nothing new and nothing to write home about.
The reality is that everything is more nuanced, and it takes time and energy to understand
I feel like whenever someone says the word ‘nuance’ its usually just an excuse to not have a position on somethin. But yeah I know you gotta know your way around the shovel, but at the end of the day its a decision between making a new shovel or finishing the job.
To begin with, the enemy of your enemy might not be your friend. Just because the USSR fought against Nazi Germany doesn’t mean that the USSR was run by people that we’d like to have lunch with.
I mean, yeah I don’t think many people would like to dine with stalin, but does that make them not communist anymore?
And then it’s important not to think that the USSR in the early 40s is the same as what it was in the late 80s
I mean in the 40s they took berlin an in the 80s they kinda ker splat, seems like they just got weaker, not like any different
and that last part I guess its strange to be absolutist, but someone needs to just pick a side, and yeah there’s many sides, but just keep picking yours until youve found your niche. Maybe thats bad, but I don’t wanna jus spend my time going over the menu options when I could’ve been eating a nice steak the whole time. And everyone else seems to have decided too, even though they have opinions on it that don’t match.
ha I guess I did jus kinda say my piece and not consider yours all too well, but ill keep it in mind to think over when I get a nice smoke.
Thank you for giving a clarification. Im just trying to wade my way through this storm.
As you’re discovering, Leftism isn’t a universal thing, there are sub-groups ranging from (US) Democrat/ (UK) Labour all the way through to individualistic anarchism. There are a lot of stopping points on the journey, none of which are the same as the others - socialism, communism etc and even within those sub groups there are sub-sub groups.
So the the word you’re questioning ‘tankie’ is a term applied to communists who deny that communist regimes are capable of, or indeed have, committed acts of violence on individuals, groups or entire ethnic groups/populations. The word originates from the Tiananmen Square massacre, where the ruling communist party murdered protesting people using tanks. ‘Tankies’ deny that this happened, or if it did happen it wasn’t as bad as the West claim, or if it was, that it was a justified act. They say the whole thing was made up/exaggerated by Western media. They do this because they’re living in denial.
Most of the Lemmy (and Reddit) based tankies I’ve encountered seem to belong to a youngish American, probably middle-class population. Possibly they’re rebelling against some element of their upbringing or are seeking some kind of group identity or validation. Believing in something that extreme is also an easy thing for someone to do - if you support a political system that is never ever going to assume power where you live, that abdicates you from any responsibility of engaging with the political system in your country to try and make the reality you actually live in any better.
The word originates from the Tiananmen Square massacre
This part isn’t right, it comes from the Hungarian revolution of 1956
https://libcom.org/article/everything-you-ever-wanted-know-about-tankies-were-afraid-ask
Its very nice to have a choice, but also annoying that there are so many, i’d just like one communism please or something, would be easier. But I kinda knew that there was probably going to be more to look into.
Crazy shit, yeah
I guess that makes sense, but I mean aren’t they all for the soviets and chinese? What about the people who did that? Aren’t they commies, they aren’t americans? I get theres some dumbasses goin around using a stalin pfp to cover for their own weird shit, but what about the people who like actually built shit?
Its very nice to have a choice, but also annoying that there are so many, i’d just like one communism please or something
At some point, you have to decide if your fundamental goal is to figure out what kind of world you want to live in or if you’re just bored and looking for an aesthetic to adopt.
Because it sounds like you’re kind of just looking for a group of cool kids to fit yourself into, and thus it’s annoying that there are so many various little factions.
i guess you can have fun with that crystal ball you looking at there, but im just someone who’d like people to have their things figured out. Im fine with trying to navigate it, but give me a break for wanting the sign up sheet to be a straightforward so people can start getting things done.
They support communism - so China, Cuba, the old USSR and the modern Russia that is slowly reverting back to communism. So they are supportive primarily of the system no matter how it affects actual chinese, russian or cuban people. The people are of far, far less importance than the system and the more extreme their belief the more they’ll deny the reality of how these regimes treat their people.
That’s not to say it’s all bad - Cuba has some very progressive laws for example but sadly for most of these regimes, dissent amongst the population is not tolerated.
They’re most certainly not Russian or Chinese communists on Lemmy or Reddit as those people wouldn’t be able to access these communities without breaking the law in their countries. That said, my interpretation of who they are as a group is only my opinion based on interacting with some of them.
woah woah woah, russias becoming communist now? I guess that makes sense
I mean I didn’t know that about cuba, but I think every country on earth jails people they don’t like, just how the way the world works.
I swear I saw someone talking about being russian the other day, but I guess I can’t trust that. Also someone told me the chinese folks just use a VPN, cause I see them on the social medias other places sometimes. Although they may be from Taiwan, that could be it.
thank ya for your answers, I appreciate it
I will try to make it easy to understand:
- Having social security for everyone: good
- Making people suffer or die: bad
The Soviet Union and later Russia and China excel at the making people suffer part. But tankies seem to ignore or flat out deny that.
The USA isn’t much better. See their prison system or healthcare.
I think the most successful countries are Norway and Iceland. But they have a free market so they might be called capitalist. But it’s heavily regulated and they have very good social security services. But that might be called socialist or communist. In Germany we call it social market economy.
I hold it like Obi-Wan Kenobi: Only a Sith deals in absolutes. Look beyond labels and see what is actually working the best for everyone.
Not to nitpick but did you just say china and russia are bad because they make people suffer, then say never to deal in absolutes?
Norway and Iceland are alright, i’ve got a girl who wants to go to iceland actually. Very pretty. But aren’t those not commie? like I know having that cheap housin and good unions is a commie thing, but they don’t exactly got the bigwigs out don’t they? Isn’t that the whole point?
Social market seems to be what china has too, but their economy is bad (governments aside I think we both know the difference between those two in decision making). I guess I can see, but I guess I thought there was more to it.
Not to nitpick but did you just say china and russia are bad because they make people suffer, then say never to deal in absolutes?
Absolutes in the sense of “they’re communist, they can’t be bad”. Ends don’t justify the means. America isn’t good because it’s “free” and “capitalist”. Russia isn’t good because it’s “strong” and “communist”.
People are assholes. Especially when they get the power to be assholes. A dogmatic easy system alone will not prevent that. This is a hard problem going all throughout human history.
You should read Animal Farm. It tackles the topic quite well.
I mean yeah thats a way to look at it, just think that seems too easy to see
You should read Animal Farm. It tackles the topic quite well.
isn’t that a childrens novel? I mean
It’s not a children’s novel. And something doesn’t have to be “for adults” to be insightful.
I mean my names from a lesbian ship from the show She-Ra, but I aint using that as a lense to view billions of people and an economic system through. I meant like book books or somethin
You should read about what communists do to homosexuals. You will learn something.
I mean I just heard that cuba was being all nice from another comment here
but just to be fair to your argument, I don’t think anybody is nice to gays. Like name another country nice to gays at the same time. Seems like more of a world homophobia issue than branding all reds one forever.
Maybe it’s because I just woke up after only a few hours of sleep, but I have no idea what you just said.
@PrincessLeiasCat the cliff notes version is “trololololol trolololol trolololol.”
That would have been more pleasant to wake up to tbh
@PrincessLeiasCat yeah, it actually is a surprisingly pleasant song.
To all taking this person seriously, she seems to be an alt of https://hexbear.net/u/Catradora_Stalinism, a hexbear/lemmygrad user
There has been a lot of debate over the last ~200 years of history of socialism. Not everyone is in agreement on everything.
I mean yeah but aren’t yall supposed to team up at least when the goin get rough? But yeahhhhh I get what you getting at. Im jus all kinda new to this whole show.
aren’t yall supposed to team up
@CatradoraSomething I mean no one else does that, so I don’t see why you expect they would.Catholics and Protestants and Westboro Baptists and Eastern Orthodox and Mormons aren’t all teamed up together just because they’re all basically Christian. Neither are the Sunnis and Shiites just because they’re Muslim.Any country that has a system that allows more than 2 political parties has a whole spectrum of them, both in terms of the left to right axis and the authoritarian to libertarian axis.Nevermind, just saw this comment. Feel embarrassed I fell for this troll now.
I guess im one of them tankie fellas now?
You were from the first sentence of your post.
I’m trans. I like the red vibe.
It’s your hexbear alt account?
and this is why i made an account. Ya’ll act like its some fuckin spy shit, this is a computer for christ’s sake. Learn to get over yourself. Ya’ll haven’t even actually told me what one is, all of you keep saying different things!
It’s funny how you failed to reply to my first sentence.
you only had a first sentence, thats what it was about?? Did you have a fuckin question mark where that period was?
Neither are the Sunnis and Shiites just because they’re Muslim.
I mean they all seem to team up when the yankees come knockin, and christians teamed up for the crusades I think. I mean Im not saying hold hands but fighting the big bad seems like the priority.
But that makes sense
thank ye, ill take a read
You’re confused. Most people here are neither communists nor tankies. You’re asking the wrong people.
huh, yall said you were leftists
Never. Do you have a source for this ridiculous statement?
I mean I thought I got a vibe, and Im figuring out this whole federation lemmy thing, so I may have gotten it wrong. I mean several nice folks who answered my questions are leftists. Like Democratic Socialists that one dude was.
So 1 guy is a democrat means that 8 billion people are communists? You’re still young, please stop taking drugs now.
I like how im a young one whenever yall just want me to be. I said I got a vibe, and I probably posted in the wrong place, is that a crime?
