Was banned from [email protected] for calling out a Mod’s misuse of the Egg prime directive to criticize trans people for helping out trans women in denial of their trans-ness. They’re denying the validity of signs of being transgender, what the actual fuck, this shit is not okay. Then after banning me that dipshit locks the post so no one else can reply on it. How is this not power-tripping?
Modlog history for my account: https://discuss.online/modlog?userId=11993717
Can you all stop downvoting the OP? Please?
OP, you probably already the stuff that I’m going to say; I’ll share for the sake of others.
Here’s what I believe to be the first part of the comic from the OOP (it seems to have been deleted):
TL;DR of the “Egg Prime Directive”: “the fact that trans people have an unspoken agreement not to tell people who are questioning their gender whether or not they are trans.”
Now here’s my take: YDI.
We humans do the same things for different reasons. And we should not be assuming why someone else does it.
That’s one of the aspects of the egg prime directive, and the mod is simply acknowledging it - that the only person who perhaps knows why that AMAB kid is playing as a girl character is the kid themself. (Or why the AFAB kid is playing as a boy character.)
The other aspect is that, even if the person happens to be trans, you don’t break an egg open from the outside; instead you keep the egg warm and the nest comfy. You don’t deny it, but you don’t confirm it, you make sure that the person feels loved regardless of their identity.
So no, the egg prime directive is not some “vague ass ideology”, as you called it. It has good reasons to exist. Not following it does more harm than good.
Beyond that: yes, you were enforcing gender stereotypes. And yes, you were rude and hostile.
I also think that the 2d “chill your head!” ban was appropriate.
Can you all stop downvoting the OP? Please?
Well, upvote the thread, downvote the comments.
That mod was denying the validity of the signs of being trans, and they’re not even trans themselves. Does it really seem appropriate to take advice from a cis person about what it really means to be trans?
I know that I reacted strongly but the fact is they really should not be a mod there, they’re hiding behind the Egg prime directive to deny the experiences of real trans women because they think our stories about coming out are forcing gender stereotypes.
Also that mod very clearly overstepped by locking the post so no one else could criticize him for his invalidation of transfem experiences of being eggs and the signs we didn’t see. Is that okay and justified for him to be able to silence people like that?
Please, don’t misgender the mod. They identify as agender, not cis. This should be respected, even if you disagree with them.
The “core” of the advice comes from someone who’s trans, Cassie LaBelle. The mod just applied it to this specific case.
And even if the mod wasn’t from another group of people who, just like you, are also marginalised because of their gender (or lack of)… well, what matters is what is said, not who says it.
I’m cis, mind you. I’m talking about this here because it’s how this comm works: you share something, then others say if they think that you, the mod, both, or neither are right. (And because I have trans friends who often talk about stuff, I hope I can relay their views a wee bit.)
Correct me if I’m wrong, but from your comments it seems that people were actively denying that you were trans, for a long time. What the mod is doing is something else entirely; they are not saying “your experience as a trans woman is invalid!”, they’re saying “everyone has different experiences”. What was a sign for you might not be for someone else, and vice versa.
Also that mod very clearly overstepped by locking the post so no one else could criticize him for his invalidation of transfem experiences of being eggs and the signs we didn’t see. Is that okay and justified for him to be able to silence people like that?
I’d probably do the same - it’s a 3m old post, it had lots of activity, but the new activity is being combative.
If they genuinely wanted to silence you the ban wouldn’t be just two days.
Gods damn, YDI big time.
You were being a complete asshole. Shit, I’d have banned you permanently, not just temporary. Way over the line of civility.
Couldn’t agree more, this shit is toxic as fuck. Really don’t get how they’re saying the mod is abusive, that mod was probably too nice.
As a trans woman who wears jeans and Ts and feels more at home in a machine shop than a stitch and bitch (although stitch and bitches rock) the narrative that feminine coded behaviour is a necessary and/or sufficient condition for being a trans woman is deeply damaging medicalised bullshit.
Don’t push people to perform cisness or transness, just let them discover themselves.
I’m not saying that people need to perform in ways to be trans. I myself am like that I don’t act or dress particularly feminine (been denied official care for that as well) I am saying though that for many people these are signs and the mod is denying the validity of signs that people are trans with their statements while hiding behind the egg prime directive.
YDI
If someone acted like this towards me, told me I absolutely had to be trans, I would have stayed in that egg way fucking longer. You don’t get to decide someone is trans anymore than a mod does, the only person who can decide is the person themselves.
You’re being hostile in what should be a friendly and welcoming space, the mod did a good thing here and you probably need to spend some time reflecting on your actions.
I apologize for being angry and losing my cool, but come on, that mod shouldn’t even be a mod there, he’s a femboy, not trans. Why should he be allowed to sit there and deny the signs of being trans to other trans women then lock the post after silencing me so no one can criticize him anymore. Am I the only one who sees that as wrong?
I’m gonna go against the grain here and say that YDI retroactively for posting such a low-resolution screenshot. -_-
But also y’all, isn’t it kinda weird to downvote YDI posts? It’s not like they don’t belong in this community.
I guess it makes sense considering there was absolutely no abuse of power going on?
This is an “Am I the Asshole?” style community, though. When an asshole posts, you’re not supposed to downvote them, because they’re specifically being invited to post and receive criticism. Downvotes just bury their posts and defeat the purpose of the community.
I keep telling people that
People vote with agreement. Ya ain’t gonna change that.
I’m sorry I don’t have a nicer laptop with a higher res screen so I can take bigger screenshots. Maybe I should dip into my savings and buy one instead of saving up to get bottom surgery. It’s no one else’s problem that I have a penis after all. That was sarcasm, I’m not doing that at all, get used to low-res screenshots because I’m not buying a better laptop unless this one dies or I have a vagina (probably won’t for a while afterwards bc I’ll be in debt).
Well now I’m immensely curious about the specs of your machine. A circa-2011 smartphone has more pixels than that in both directions.
I upvoted.
YDI, your behavior is incredibly hostile and uncalled for. Also WTF? Claiming people can’t play the girl characters and have long hair while still being cis? What the hell, that sounds so dumb and outdated, people can like whatever the fuck they want without it having a deeper meaning. Who the Fuck do you think you are to try and argue otherwise?
Also it’s a two day ban, take the mod’s advice and cool your head, instead of starting more shit.
Hey wait a minute, you’re that dipshit who misgendered someone and said that Neopronouns aren’t valid. You have zero credibility in trans spaces and you should be banned from all of them, go fuck yourself you bigoted piece of shit.
You sound like an alt of @[email protected]. Just further reinforces my opinion that you deserve it that much more.
Best to come with receipts when you say stuff like that about someone.
Here’s a public comment of this asshole denying the validity of nounself pronouns:
https://discuss.online/post/13103441/11998755
Throughout that thread they refused to use the correct neopronouns of that person (drag/dragself) and constantly criticized drag for it.
Oh, the dragon thing made quite a stir.
What @[email protected] said is unacceptable and invalidating to many trans people, he should feel ashamed of himself and be banned from trans spaces for it.
Please do not mention me for this. Actually please don’t mention or reply to me at all. I don’t want to talk to you anymore. If you mention me again I’m reporting it as harassment.
I see nothing in their comment disregarding neopronouns or even nounself usage inherently, but instead discussing the inconsistent way the dragon person leveraged them.
Nounself pronouns are hard to write legibly with and drag failed to do so successfully. Why? Because drag is their handle as well. Nounself pronouns are not generally the first name of the speaker, as generally seen in the below links table of examples. (but of course not exhaustive examples)
The challenges many ( not just your target) commented on regarding the nounself pronouns are discussed here, and I think their conclusion is a good one. (Provide alternatives for expediency, and accessibility, as readability is inherently challenging)
https://nonbinary.wiki/wiki/Nounself_pronouns
That wiki certainly isn’t the bible but it’s reasonably discussing the topic, imo.
I am trying to be respectful to you now:
You seem very angry, across all your interactions here in this thread and around your experiences here. Don’t get me wrong, there’s a lot to be frustrated about in life. I’m not telling you to leave. That’s not my place. But I think you might find a happier experience with a bit of a break, and perhaps heavier curation of who you speak with, and where you hang out. Good luck.
(Provide alternatives for expediency, and accessibility, as readability is inherently challenging)
No, people do not owe other people easy alternatives to just respecting the person’s pronouns. I don’t want people using they/them on me because it’s “too hard” to remember she/her, or keep forgetting I’m a girl because of my voice. No compromise, just respect people’s fucking pronouns.
You seem very angry, across all your interactions here in this thread and around your experiences here. Don’t get me wrong, there’s a lot to be frustrated about in life. I’m not telling you to leave. That’s not my place. But I think you might find a happier experience with a bit of a break, and perhaps heavier curation of who you speak with, and where you hang out. Good luck.
You bet I’m fucking angry, if you knew what it was like to be trans you wouldn’t be saying it so casually. I can’t just stop being angry or stop being scared. I’m literally living in a world that hates and rejects me for who I am, and I’m forced to listen to apologia from assholes who just can’t accept the fact that I’m a fucking girl.
YDI, and it’s a 2 day ban, chill out.
‘Cis boys can’t play as girl characters or have long hair or dress feminine’ is a gender stereotype. There’s no reason cis boys can’t do that. Or trans boys for that matter.
You mention in your comment that you could’ve transitioned earlier if someone just forced you to stop being in denial, but the thing is everyone isn’t you with the exact same needs as you had. There are feminine men out there who don’t need to be told that actually, they’re women and lying to themselves. Some of them may or may not wind up deciding to transition in some way. But that is something for them to decide, not for you to force on them because you have distressing feelings about when you started your own transition.
Everyone needs support to explore their gender and gender expression, no matter what it is. If you’d had that you would have likely accepted your gender and transitioned sooner. It sucks that you didn’t have it (I didn’t either), but we can’t change that now. All you can do is try to make that environment for other people, and telling them that their gender must be this because of x, y, z reason isn’t a supportive environment for exploring gender.
You mention in your comment that you could’ve transitioned earlier if someone just forced you to stop being in denial, but the thing is everyone isn’t you with the exact same needs as you had. There are feminine men out there who don’t need to be told that actually, they’re women and lying to themselves. Some of them may or may not wind up deciding to transition in some way. But that is something for them to decide, not for you to force on them because you have distressing feelings about when you started your own transition.
For many people these behaviors are not something normal cis people would do, they think it’s normal something that every cis person does, even though it isn’t. I’m not saying to force anything onto them, I’m saying tell them about being trans, that it’s not exactly normal for people to do this stuff, they may think it is but come on, how many normal cis guys do you know who dress as, play as, and act like girls? I thought I knew some, but they ended up not being cis.
Everyone needs support to explore their gender and gender expression, no matter what it is. If you’d had that you would have likely accepted your gender and transitioned sooner. It sucks that you didn’t have it (I didn’t either), but we can’t change that now. All you can do is try to make that environment for other people, and telling them that their gender must be this because of x, y, z reason isn’t a supportive environment for exploring gender.
You don’t know the younger version of me, she was very stubborn and felt like she was a boy and it was totally normal to want to be a girl sometimes. I was stupid and arrogant and did not want to be trans, but being trans isn’t something you can choose, can’t just stop being trans, and I really paid for it later due to my much later transition. You could’ve talked to younger me about how trans is a thing and I would’ve said it didn’t apply to me. I wish someone would’ve given me that kick and said “Hey dipshit you’re trans, whether you like it or not” and countered all my dumbass excuses about being a boy and how it’s normal for boys to do this, because it isn’t and wasn’t.
I’m not saying to force anything onto them, I’m saying tell them about being trans, that it’s not exactly normal for people to do this stuff
Yes, that is the bad part. You shouldn’t be telling anyone that it’s not normal to express their gender however they’re expressing it. Even if you think it’s for their own good.
If they literally do not know trans people exist or you’re correcting stereotypes about trans people that’s one thing, but if they do already know all that then… that’s it, you don’t need to do anymore. People need to take it at the pace they need to take it at, even if that pace isn’t the pace you’d have taken it at. (Assuming they are trans and not just gender nonconforming.)
Looking back at your own behavior as a child or teen and seeing how it was an expression of you being trans is absolutely fine, and so is wishing it had gone differently. But you can’t project those wishes onto other people.
But it isn’t exactly normal is it? I mean most boys don’t like to act and dress like girls, they don’t play as girls in games, grow long hair. For most people these would be considered signs of being the other gender or being NB.
Also I get what you’re saying about people going their own pace but you have to understand that people waiting too long to figure out that they are trans can be detrimental to their chances of passing and therefore their mental health. Some people kill themselves because it feels hopeless when transitioning later and I know the feeling. It sucks that my voice will probably never pass without surgery. If I had broken the egg as early as possible and began transition then, I would perfectly pass right now, even if I’d waited until I was 18 I would’ve still been better off than I am now.
It may not be typical or usual, in that most boys indeed don’t do those things. But normal is a judgement word, and as they say, a setting on the washing machine. Thinking you have to convince someone the way they express their gender is not normal and they need to transition soon or they’ll try to kill themselves is not just catastrophizing, it is way projecting your own trauma and hangups onto other people.
And like, to be clear, I am not blaming you for having Extremely Big Emotions about this! Being trans in a transphobic society inherently comes with a lot of trauma and societal conditioning to sort through. We have to be extra careful to not just reinforce the same oppressive system of gender stereotypes while working through our own shit, it’s a real tightrope.
I’m not trying to say it isn’t normal to judge them for it, I know it’s hard to be trans and that’s why it’s important to show them the signs, so they can understand themselves why they aren’t cis. I know it seems like I’m catastrophizing or projecting I just know that for many trans people it is that way, it is very hard. Transitioning late after years in the egg or the dysphoria brought on by age can be too much for many people, which is why transitioning should happen sooner rather than later.
I’m glad you understand the nature of the situation here, I think gender stereotypes suck (I was denied official HRT because I wasn’t willing to pretend to be a woman for them) but it’s still important to recognize that for many people acting in non-standard ways are signs of being trans. Gender stereotypes are that way for a reason, they weren’t just arbitrarily made up, people of certain genders are drawn naturally towards gendered things correlating to their emotional gender, which is linked to their biological brain gender. That’s why acting feminine as a male is often a sign of being trans.
Even if you aren’t intending judgement with it, ‘normal’ carries a judging connotation, or at minimum the connotation that there is something wrong with them that needs to be fixed.
Telling them that the way their abnormality needs to be fixed is through transitioning rather than conforming to their ASAB is still imposing more gender stereotypes, even if it’s done with good intentions.
If someone is given free access to information about trans people and transitioning, can talk to trans people either in person or online to ask questions, etc, and they’ve decided they aren’t trans, then that’s just something you have to respect. Self determination is more important than making sure nobody can hurt themselves by making decisions they might regret.
Even if you aren’t intending judgement with it, ‘normal’ carries a judging connotation, or at minimum the connotation that there is something wrong with them that needs to be fixed.
I’m sorry if it came across that way, I don’t think people who do it need to be fixed, just helped to discover their true selves so they can be happy.
Telling them that the way their abnormality needs to be fixed is through transitioning rather than conforming to their ASAB is still imposing more gender stereotypes, even if it’s done with good intentions.
How? It’s literally encouraging them to transition away from their AGAB, it’s literally breaking gender stereotypes by virtue of presenting differently than society expects them to, since they are presenting and identifying as a gender different than what they were assigned at birth. Being trans breaks gender stereotypes.
If someone is given free access to information about trans people and transitioning, can talk to trans people either in person or online to ask questions, etc, and they’ve decided they aren’t trans, then that’s just something you have to respect. Self determination is more important than making sure nobody can hurt themselves by making decisions they might regret.
Trans regret is one of the lowest regrets that there is out there, almost no one does and most if not all detransitioners do so because bigoted fucks made or coerced them to do it. Trans regret is practically non-existent in the real world without external influence.
Playing girls in videogames is a sign of being trans now? Hello stereotype.
It is :) Most cis boys don’t enjoy playing as girls, it’s a very eggy thing to do.
Or maybe we want to stare at a female ass while playing a third person game.
To quote: “If I’m looking at an ass for hours, it’d better be a nice one”
Smaller hit-boxes too? 😏
Yep, every guy who ever played tomb raider is actually trans.
Did you play it because it was a fun game, or did you play it because you could be a girl in that game? 😏
I’m a cis girl irl, so that’s kinda hard to answer
Pro-tip: Cis people really shouldn’t be giving pointers when it comes to the trans experience.
You’re literally asking for the perspective of cis people who play as the opposing gender in games. You’re not discussing the trans experience.
I’ve played plenty of 3rd person games as male and female. If there’s not an option, I did it because it’s the game I want to play. If there’s an option, such as in an RPG, I sometimes do it because I role play.
Well, I think that someone who fundamentally doesn’t understand why eggs are called eggs shouldn’t be giving pointers either. I think that people in general shouldn’t be in the business of telling others what to think and feel. But that’s just me.
Why are you suggesting what is cis or trans or anything else for someone else’s brain? It comes off like bullies I might have seen in the 90s. “Oh you like art and fantasy? F**!” “Oh you like cooking, like a woman???” It’s best not to make rules of identity for how people express themselves.
Liking art didn’t make me gay, and liking cooking didn’t make me a woman, despite what someone said about me then.
Sometimes people need tough love and tough love can feel like bullying but it’s still good for them and helps them out of denial. Liking those things doesn’t make you trans, it’s a sign that you likely are trans, don’t twist my words that’s a bad faith argument used by cis people who invalidate the egg movement, which is evil because breaking people’s eggs saves lives. Getting people out of denial and able to accept themselves and transition literally saves people’s lives, because trans people who don’t get the care they need literally feel so bad they want to kill themselves.
Girl, the whole point of eggs is that the only way to hatch them is to provide a warm environment and let the chick break out the egg on their own
“breaking people’s eggs” is harmful thinking and while I understand where you’re coming from (wanting to help people transition earlier so they can accept themselves, pass better avoid suicide, etc) - this is not the way - you can’t force others to make decisions about themselves - they have to come to their conclusions on their own terms - otherwise you’re recreating the same issues you’re trying to solve
imagine breaking somebody’s egg and then it turns out they were just into cross-dressing but you kept insisting “nah you’re in denial you’re actually trans - start transitioning now you’ll regret it later if you don’t” - and then they transition and find out that’s not what they wanted and take their own life because of irreversible changes they can’t afford to change that make them incredibly dysphoric - are you ready to accept that responsibility? and even if you are - do you see how it’s not your choice to make?
Sometimes people need tough love
What
The
Fuck
There’s a big difference between dictating what others behavior says about them, and creating a welcome and safe environment for people to learn about themselves, and feel comfortable to explore their identity.
You were banned for hostility and rudeness, and I cannot help agreeing with it.
That mod is likely a cis person telling trans women what it means to be trans and denying their signs of being trans, I have the right to be angry at him.
You have every right to be angry.
You have zero right to have an unending platform while voicing said anger.
Learn the difference.
I have the right to be angry at him.
LMAO
deleted by creator
That’s what I want to know, it makes no sense why they would let a femboy who isn’t even trans mod a community about trans people and trans issues.
Fuck you, hiding behind the Egg prime directive so you can deny trans people the ability to break out of their eggs, you should be ashamed of yourself whoever made you a mod of a trans friendly space should be ashamed of themselves, you’re not even trans you have no right to determine whether we are valid or not. Fuck you hiding behind vague ass ideology. LET TRANS PEOPLE HELP OUT EGGS IN DENIAL! b
Don’t deny the validity of the signs of being trans. Do you really think that it’s cis for a boy to play as girl characters and like to have long hair and dress feminine. Don’t hide behind the egg prime directive either, so many of us aren’t given what we need to break out of denial and end up transitioning much later than we should. I could’ve transitioned 10 years earlier and I would pass much better but I wasn’t given the opportunity because the people who would’ve helped me kept me in denial. Fuck you and people who hide behind this shit to avoid helping trans people. You should be ashamed of yourself
YDI. Bruh, I played as girl characters and liked to have long hair (before I got older and wiser and realized long hair is SUCH a fucking hassle, how did I spend so many years with it?!) and I turned out cis. I played with porcelain dolls, for Christ’s sake. Don’t reinforce gender stereotypes.
Because long hair is worth the hassle 😁
