cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/22940159
Bernie Sanders caused a stir last week, when the independent senator from Vermont and two-time contender for the Democratic presidential nomination sent a post-election email to his progressive supporters across the country. In it, he argued that the Democrats suffered politically in 2024 at least in part because they ran a campaign that focused on “protecting the status quo and tinkering around the edges.”
In contrast, said Sanders, “Trump and the Republicans campaigned on change and on smashing the existing order.” Yes, he explained, “the ‘change’ that Republicans will bring about will make a bad situation worse, and a society of gross inequality even more unequal, more unjust and more bigoted.”
Despite that the reality of the threat they posed, Trump and the Republicans still won a narrow popular-vote victory for the presidency, along with control of the US House. That result has inspired an intense debate over the future direction not just of the Democratic Party but of the country. And the senator from Vermont is in the thick of it.
In his email, Sanders, a member of the Senate Democratic Caucus who campaigned in states across the country this fall for Vice President Kamala Harris and the Democratic ticket, asked a blunt question: “Will the Democratic leadership learn the lessons of their defeat and create a party that stands with the working class and is prepared to take on the enormously powerful special interests that dominate our economy, our media and our political life?”
His answer: “Highly unlikely. They are much too wedded to the billionaires and corporate interests that fund their campaigns.”
I hate how this is the one man talking sense, and the DNC reviles him for it.
The problem is that it makes sense to us, the average Americans who would benefit from such things. But not to the elites who will be required to cede some amount of wealth, power and influence in the interest of such things.
Looks like half of Lemmy is part of that elite, seeing as they prefer to lose another election than to even try for a third party push
I think that’s part of his point
The DNC made some great retorts to his comments about Harris losing the election, though.
After Sanders stated the DNC “abandoned working class people” they were right to point out Biden has been the most pro-working-class president of Sanders lifetime on policies and protections, and that Harris proposed policies would have dramatically changed the lives of many of the poorest working americans.
I don’t think either side, Sanders and the DNC, is wrong about this issue, I think Harris campaigned to attract right wing voters and lost her base of support as a result.
I said this here before: https://lemmy.ca/post/32815441/12768827 and stand by it. I think it would be beneficial to you guys
The problem with getting working class candidates is they are too busy working.
And lack the funds to run
Even if they had the time (it’s not like there are people in the world with job schedules that allow for personal development) would that person really want to do it?
Call me naive but no normal person wants to rule above others or tell people what to do.
I mean we have examples with mods and DMV employees a d whatnot abusing the little power they have for sadistic pleasure
It’s getting to the point where a third party push seems logical.
People just want to move past NH having their primary delegates stolen, but that shit really happened. I don’t see anything from the DNC that would indicate significant change. They have a candidate and that’s who the candidate is going to be.
It’s no effective at winning elections, but the do it’s would rather have a republican than a progressive.
We need to demand the 2028 has strict campaign finance regulations. I can understand the argument we can’t not do it in the general, but the primary is just Dem vs Dem. Keep the billionaires out of it and let voters pick who they’re most likely to vote for in the general.
I think if we work towards ending electoral college then other things will fall into place just because people will be more incentivized to vote.
I heard 15million between NY and CA alone decide not to note at all because their vote doesn’t make a difference.
Think of all the down-ballot voting would happen with all those voters.
I don’t think that’s quite the strategy we need.
What we really need is a genuine grassroots movement with significant movement, like the Tea Party but not astroturfed, today gets more progressive in the Democratic party.
BUT
We need them locally, not on the federal level, because locally is where voting rules are established. The Progressives can then push for Rank Choice Voting. City by city, county by county, State by State, we get RCV implemented everywhere possible. This in turn breaks the Two Party System by allowing voters to pick third party candidates without fear of their vote being wasted.
The only problem is that the best time for this strategy was fifteen years ago, and not enough people cared back then to do it. The second best time is now, of course, but…
Just a few more decades of fruitlessly pursuing a pipe dream that we’ve set up as a prerequisite and then we’ll consider not moving to the right.
Ranked choice voting systems were offered in four states in this past election and were rejected in all four. If I’m remembering correctly, around $60m was spent campaigning for them. Two states have RCV already, one of which is Alaska which just narrowly avoided switching back.
No, now is apparently not the time to attempt a 3rd party strategy.
These leftist don’t understand that.
What does being leftist have to do with it? Our government is an amalgam of corruption and grift, and people across the political spectrum are fed up with it. The Republican party is worse than the Democratic party, and Trump is an extra special helping of sewage, but the whole system is one big grift. One way or another, the criminals running both parties are long overdue for the gallows, or at least a tiny prison cell.
Shut up leftist
It’s pretty sad that you can assume someone is a leftist just because their against corrupt politicians. It doesn’t say much for non-leftists.
The problem I have with this point of view is that it describes the DNC as an enormous entity, when in reality they are a small organisation that mostly gets its financing from individual campaigns (especially the presidential campaign).
The issue the progressives face is not the DNC but systemic issues with politics in the US. A big issue is the reliance on campaign contributions by the rich. Another issue is the media environment. The DNC is just a tiny cog in a much larger machine.
when in reality they are a small organisation that mostly gets its financing from individual campaigns (especially the presidential campaign).
Since 2015 when Hillary literally made backroom deals to fund the DNC on the condition that her campaign was allowed final review on any action the DNC was going to take…
Ignoring that the reason it was bankrupt in 2015 was it worked against Obama in 08, and refused to help him in 2012.
Like, we are not at the point yet where “it is what is”. These incredibly damaging changes are very very recent.
And that’s not even getting I to the “victory fund” nonsense that allows people to donate to the chosen candidate via maximum state donations, drastically underfunding any state party who doesn’t tie the DNC’s line. Or that in the most recent election the DNC ordered a state to violate their state election laws and when they refused, their primary delegates were removed.
This shit is not how it always was.
We can not ignore modern party leaders destroying our party just because Republicans are destroying our country.
If we do that then it might really not matter what letter is by a future president’s name.
Even if you think the wealthy haven’t bought both parties already, with both parties continuingly pulling shadier and shadier “campaign finance reform”. Eventually some wealthy person will realize it takes a billion to buy a general, but only like 10 million to buy a primary if the DNC handpicks the first 10 states and calls it before 40 have had their primary.
And that’s the rub. Even if you don’t think it’s happened, it’s really hard to argue that any random billionaire couldn’t do it if they wanted.
Which makes this a perfect time to mention trump donated so much money to the Clintons in support of them pulling the Dem party right. That Bill and Hillary went to his wedding.
trump is literally the type of people who have been paying for neoliberal primary campaigns, and others like him are still cutting checks to Dems.
Idk. I think building a third party seems like a distraction when its pretty easy to just become an “Independent”, case-in-point, Bernie Sanders. Find good, compelling candidates and run them. Small donor donations only.
Progressives should take over the Green Party and threaten to run unless they get concessions from Democrats.
Of course, this requires Democrats to care about winning and not just shutting out progressives.
requires Democrats to care about winning
Their goal is not winning or defeating Republicans, but to prevent leftist candidates, movements or organizations from obtaining any power. They are gatekeepers for fascism.
Nah, the republican is gonna win again because the democratic party is beyond repair.
Last 3rd party push resulted in Bush and 2 wars. Instead of Gore the environmentalist. Voting 3rd party for progressivism is the biggest self own in history.
Reread your American political history, because Bush got in because Florida was being Florida and totally fucked up a shitload of ballots, and the Supreme Court stepped in and made the decision for them.
So what was the end result of all those Nader votes? Bring things closer and introduce uncertainty. The result was a Bush admin and lack of progress.
The Supreme Court is not a third party.
Gore lost because Gore was a shit candidate. 15% of Dems that voted for Clinton then voted for Bush had a larger impact on 2000 than the 3% that voted 3rd party. Gore couldn’t even win his home state, if he had, he could have lost Florida and won the election.
Where would we be on the environment with Gore being president? Yeah a fuck load further than we are with Bush timeline.
Plus Obama saw that environmentalism cost Gore the election and steered clear of it. Thanks 3rd party protest voters!
The protest vote is a vote against something, like Democrats voting against trump. We would be exactly where we are right now with climate change regardless if Gore won or not. Government will never impact the profits of corporations that are polluting the environment. And it isnt the President that drafts law, including environmental law, that’s Congress. The Congress that won in 2000 did nothing for the environment.
People voted for Nader in protest that the Dems were not progressive enough. And that’s what got us Bush.
Gore is the environmentalist. If you think that Gore wouldn’t have implemented environmental policy then frankly you are far gone. And reading the rest of your reply lines up with that, so I’m out. Yes it’s congress, if you have all 3 then the president pushes for what they want to do, and common parlance is to talk about the president.
Numbers are hard, but the 3% that voted for Nader is less than the 15% of Democrats that voted for Bush.
Since you don’t know, Nader is directly responsible for a HUGE part of our environmental laws. Gore talked about it, Nader advocated and pushed for legislation that helped create stronger laws.
The problem will be money. Corporations can basically bankroll whatever candidates they want. It will be an extremely uphill battle given the state of campaign finance laws.
From the article:
“Should we be supporting Independent candidates who are prepared to take on both parties?”
[Sanders’s question] was also influenced by the campaign of former union leader Dan Osborn, who ran this fall as a working-class independent in the deep-red state of Nebraska.
Against an entrenched Republican incumbent, and without big money backing or party support, Osborn shocked pundits by winning 47 percent of the vote.
Bernie Sanders: I think that what Dan Osborn did should be looked at as a model for the future. He took on both political parties. He took on the corporate world. He ran as a strong trade unionist. Without party support, getting heavily outspent, he got through to working-class people all over Nebraska.
It sounds like you can still get pretty far by just addressing the actual concerns of the working class and offering real solutions to problems. Still an uphill battle, definitely, but maybe not an insurmountable climb.
You definitely can. It’s not impossible, but people here on Lemmy are too defeatists
Can you share more about this guy?
We need to pay politicians MORE money. Everyone is like, no they should be paid $3.50/year cause they don’t do shit, but if you have to support yourself, own a second house in the capital city, and pay a bunch of people to do the initial campaigning (signature gathering to get on the ballot, set up the first rounds of fundraising); WHO can do that? Only rich people. Working-Class people cannot afford to become candidates.
Pay them more, and also make it illegal for them to own any stocks, or accept any gifts of any kind.
Christmas is canceled.
I feel like we should absolutely be providing congressional dormitories, at a minimum.
Barracks.
I literally know someone who’s not running for a state office because even with the compensation he can’t afford the expenses of actually being in office.
Also, the house and senate should be way bigger that are now.
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is is the same shit that’s always happened thou
The system is designed to keep the poor, middle and even lower upper class out. When one of them gets rich enough to run, and can’t be bought out by one side or another cough cough stein cough the electoral system keeps them safely out of power. The system is rigged.
I’m all for it but the problem is that working class people are too busy working. Maybe they can set up a PAC that gives scholarships to would-be politicians so they can challenge these douchebags and still pay their bills.
I think that is a great idea - I would donate to a PAC that promoted the election of progressive candidates. I’m sure many on Lemmy would do the same.
Yeah and not ones that pretend to do that by claiming they support regular progressives but then immediately ask you for your income level.
To many are just pretending to be that and then hoover up money for themselves from the liberal idea that money is helpful alone.Many of those already exist
That’s great! do you have any names of these PACs ?
Do you know how to conversation?
Change that to take over the Democratic party and you got a good idea.
I mean, running as a progressive within the Democratic Party already means you have to fight both parties. You have to fight the Democratic Party during the primaries, and you have to fight Republicans if Democrats somehow fail to keep you from winning the primaries. If you do win the primaries, you cannot count on the support of the Democratic Party in the general, as they prefer the Republican to beat you so they can run a centrist next time.
Then people need to abandon the DNC and form another option. Reform from within is fantasy, the current power structure will never allow anything that’s a threat to their existence
How do you plan to avoid the problem of abandoning the DNC causing Republicans, who are worse than Democrats, from gaining unmitigated power while said other party is gaining momentum?
Republicans are only worse in their rhetoric. They will openly declare their intent, then do it. Democrats omit the declaring part.
Protecting the status quo prolongs everyone’s suffering
Only one of the two major parties helped ensure that a good friend of mine had legal access to lifesaving healthcare recently, and it wasn’t Republicans. Pretending one party isn’t worse isn’t productive. How are you going to approach the spoiler effect, or do you simply not care about all the death and suffering that will result from strategy that doesn’t tackle the spoiler effect?
The spoiler is running right wing candidates posing as liberal. Both times the DNC has done that we got trump.
Words have meanings. If you don’t want to answer the question because you’re embarrassed of the fact that you care for political purity over the lives of others, that’s on you.
They’re just here to cosplay as revolutionaries. They don’t give a fuck about the people who actually suffer under these regimes.
The only thing that is embarrassing is liberals thinking their candidates are progressive
Republicans are demonstrably worse than Democrats. Neither care about the poor, but one of them actively tries to kill queer folk, many of whom are good friends of mine, so fuck those Republican assholes.
The Democrat assholes at least aren’t directly targeting the people I care about, it’s just collateral.
Democrats kill them via social murder, which is a direct act of violence against all marginalized communities. Liberals claim they support trans using the restroom of choice, but don’t care if they live on the streets to make that decision.
Republicans kill them directly
There’s an option for no murder
Yeah, me getting to use the bathroom is just a rhetorical distraction in the end.
Go back to your hole, .ml troll
They care nothing about you
That already has happened. What else you have to lose
Right now I live in a state with a Democratic governor, a Democratic state senate, and a Democratic majority on the state supreme court. And these three things are preventing major catastrophes here. So no, this has not already happened, and what I have to lose here is quite literally my life.
Then you have nothing to worry about, you’ve got yours, moving on then
If the Republican party regains power in my state, my life is in danger. Even if I were so selfish as to only care about having “got mine,” that non-sequitur would still be irrelevant.
“you can’t blame the voter! The DNC is at fault for not changing”
– literally any 3rd party lemming after the election
“Then people need to abandon the DNC and form another option.”
– literally any 3rd party lemming after the election
so which is it? can we blame the voters or can’t we?
If the voters are too apathetic to what the DNC is offering, the thought of abandoning them for something that is much more popular isn’t a contradictory prospect. Having an enthusiasm problem so big that trump was able to be elected twice kinda points to the fact that people want something else.
Only if it helps to the narrative, if not, no
Dan Osborne ran competitively in a neglected Nebraska Senate race. It’s very common for Dems to entirely neglect seats, even whole states, and let winnable races languish.
Sanders candidates can (and did) win races like this in 2018 and 2020. The problem is that once a seat is “winnable”, lobbyists state money bombing primaries. Then you get shitty corporate Dems pushing leftists out and promptly losing those seats again.
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Not gonna happen as long as money is the key to political power.
Finally someone daring to say what everyone on Lemmy hates
Good. The Democrats screwed Sanders over twice, and both times, he took it graciously and stood with them against Trump. Now that they have proved completely and utterly incapable of fighting the rise of fascism, there’s no need to pull punches or play nice. There’s no point in supporting the lesser of two evils if it is completely incapable of opposing the greater evil.
The Democratic Party is the political equivalent of a bloated whale carcass festering in the hot sun. Maybe if we stripped away all its old, rotting fat, we might find some use for its bones, but otherwise, it serves no purpose. Anyone telling you how it’s going to swim again is either delusional or lying.
We need working class candidates working outside of the right wing oligarchy. As a party Republicans and Democrats need to die off.
Unfortunately the only way to get enough signatures to get your name on a ballot can only be achieved via rich donors and mass advertising.
We would literally have an easier time killing the big pary canidates than working within the system.
This is just plain false, and also, like, aggressively defeatist. It feels to me, whenever someone says something like this, the intention is to kill off any hope in the people who aren’t terminally fatalistic about the prospect of any working class representation within the American politcal system, which makes you less optimistic than a Russian Serf in 1860, and the Wobblies and other trade unionists who were literally murdered and jailed.
Like, not to pick on you, because there are a lot of other people in this thread expressing the same opinion, but to whatever degree what you’re saying is true, it is only as true as the sentiment you are expressing is prevalent.
In my city there are hundreds of canidates that run for every position every election.
There are 2 names on the ballots when people go to vote
Call it what you want, but unless you get the R or D support or manage to get your own rich donor you will never get the signatures you need for your name to appear on the ballot next to their canidates, and the names on the ballot are who people actually vote for.
Acknowledging reality is not defeatist
We can’t do that since the rich have bought how democracy works. This is the same shit that’s always happened though. They’ll keep us just happy enough to keep their heads.
And now we sit back and watch everyone in this thread who shat on 3rd party for “wasting votes” throwing around stupid takes like:
- Erm RCV will prevent this from being viable, we should just try to fix the Democrat party instead
- Working class people don’t have the time and money to make a grassroots movement. Clearly we need PAC money to win because that worked so well for Kamala and Clinton
- PAC money is superior to actual constituents and voters
- 4 years isn’t enough for a new party to work, we need to vote Democrat first to kick the Republicans out before we do anything else
- 3rd party would only affect the Democrats and split them up
Also the most common one lately
- There’s not going to be a 2028 election so why bother doing anything
Sounds a bit too much like “both sides”.
Well, when you want people who identify as Republican and people who identify as Democrat to raise hell together, you call them both out.
I mean, one side is much much much more likely to endorse you as a working class if you try to run for election, but yeah the post removes as much context from his speech as possible.
The senator says in this exclusive interview that challengers to status quo politics can run in Democratic primaries or as independents.
Terminally online leftists: “BERNIE IS SAYING NEVER VOTE FOR OR COOPERATE WITH THE DEMS LIKE WE’VE BEEN SAYING, VINDICATION”
Bernie’s right, naturally. Change comes from the bottom up, from people volunteering to make a difference.
