I don’t consider myself neurodivergent but I do consider this issue one of the greatest barriers with my finding employment. I was raised to despise lying, and enough bad experiences have made me consider ‘massaging the truth’ to be the exact same thing.
A lot og questions can be answered diplomatically and slow that you are able to handle yourself:
Q: do you like the colour red?
A1: I hate red A2: I don’t like red A3: Not my favourite colour A4: I prefer blue
In this entirely made up and pointless exercise you hate red and are asked if you like it. Real world applications converging on zero.
On a scale of lie to truth, where are you comfortable with representing your thoughts of red in an interview?
And remember, only Sith deals in absolutes🙃
You are not suppose to lie - you are suppose to apply for jobs that you are insanely overqualified for. Why? Because your competition is doing the same thing.
Apply for jobs that say you are under qualified, but that you are actually very much overqualified or at least matched for.
Those HR people who make the listing don’t understand most of it anyway.
It’s also ridiculous how often I see „Java“ instead of „JavaScript“ in job listings.
Unfortunately this did not pan out for me at all when I tried to move out of IT support. Now I make fries and sandwiches (I don’t even make them, I just put the toppings on). If possible I’ll probably do this til I die, not cuz I love it, but because I never want to go through with the job application process anymore.
That whole routine doesn’t magically make sense to neurotypical people either.
Ah, the beautiful awful hidden rules of human society…
You see, birds can fly thousands of miles/kilometers across entire continents, surviving through stuff that Mother Nature makes available. No need for bureaucracies, no need for Walmart, no need for “money”, no need for “being useful to aviary society”, just following the natural and evolutionary flows.
However, for some reason, humans can’t do the same, humans need to try and detach themselves from Nature. Yet we can point out exactly what’s the reason: the curse of sentience. Once upon a time, Dubito ergo cogito, cogito ergo sum, and humans became their own predators (Homo homini lupus est), yearning for something bigger to save them from themselves… (perhaps some “Leviathan”?)
Suddenly, they conceptualize the “free will”, yet they realize that existing, being a being, implies no free will at all. Existential and societal compliance (Derren Brown has good documentaries about the latter), being tangled by an invisible spider web of lies and rules. And because they’re alive, they become culprits as if existence was some kind of circle of hell to be faced by those who “dared to exist”: “you’re alive, so comply with your societal duties!”.
So is my body hungry against my will, or it’s raining over my body? I need food and shelter. Oh, but there’s the catch: I’m supposed to “buy/rent” them, because “there’s no such thing as a free lunch”. Buying and renting imply money, which implies the need something for its exchange… Some people (“the top 1% of the top 1%, the guys that play God without permission”) have golden cradles, oh, shame on me I hadn’t one, so I’m supposed to do the alternative thing: dedicate myself to a company’s brand, doing my efforts to make the company functional.
But there’s another catch: I can’t simply “be part of a company”, I need to be “hired”, but I need to “be qualified” to be hired. Oh, I’m not “qualified” enough in the eyes of their HR? I’m not going to be hired. Am I qualified? I’ll going to talk with a “recruiter”, which will ask me rhetorical questions (“So why do you want to work for this company?”, but I can’t answer “to not starve” or “to afford a rent”) which I’m supposed to reply in a “proper” way (i.e. pretending, but without being so evident that I’m pretending). I couldn’t pretend enough? I’m not hired.
No company is required to hire me, for they’re “private properties”, so I need to seek another company where I’d “qualify”. So I’m supposed to “distribute” my “curriculum vitae” across several job vacancies, waiting which one will “stick first” (as per someone’s reply here, in this very thread). Oh, but there’s another catch: job vacancy services are only good enough if I paid for them, I’m supposed to pay them in order to my curriculum to really be known to some HR… you know, so I could be “hired” and “work” and exchange my efforts with “money” so I can pay things, such as… job vacancy services. In a nutshell, I need to pay for a service so I can pay for other services. Hey, look, there flies another bird across the skies, unaware of our societal compliance complexities. They came from another country yet they have no visa nor passport! Hey, look, they’re eating “freely”, how audacious of them!
Apologies for my digression. The obvious shall be told about the society, and neurodivergents (I guess I’m one?) are the ones who can see those obviousnesses and write them as detailed as they can be.
I wouldn’t like to be a bird. If a bird gets sick it will probably die. If a bird is injured it will probably die. If a bird is born disabled in some way it will probably die. Not to speak about all the predators just waiting to eat you.
If a bird gets sick it will probably die. If a bird is injured it will probably die. If a bird is born disabled in some way it will probably die. Not to speak about all the predators just waiting to eat you.
Is it really different from human reality? If a human gets sick, there’s a significant probability of not affording proper healthcare, be it private or public.
If a human is born disabled in some way, they’ll need to face several bureaucracies just to continue being state-supported to continue surviving. This becomes even more challenging for “invisible conditions” such rheumatic, neurological and mental ones, because no one else sees or feels it beyond the human that suffers from it.
Not to mention all the humans just wanting to pull the rug out from under you (falsehood and betrayal), be it in professional or academic relations, be it in familiar relations. They won’t literally eat another human, but they won’t care if others die because of prisoner’s dilemma of betrayal and falsehood.
The difference, IMHO, is that there are no made-up predators, no made-up system pretending that they care for other’s health, and most importantly: there’s no apparent sentience among “wild” living beings of how harsh the Nature reality can be. They simply try to survive as closest to Nature’s nature as possible, while humans, no, humans consciously try to make it even harsher for others to survive.
Back when humans still were simply hominids, they needed to fight or flee from jaguars, bears, snakes, etc. We had real predators, until one of them discovered the fire, which allowed them to be “fearsome” against these animals, scaring them away, “delimiting” lands and then filling the vacuum (“Nature abhors a vacuum”) of real predators with made-up predators: themselves.
Yes it is really different from human society. You yourself admitted it. In all those cases the bird has almost no chance of survival while we do. I don’t say humans would survive 100% of the time but it’s a fighting chance. I don’t say it is fair. Nature is also unfair.
Like you stated in many places in the world even a disabled person can survive on the labor of society, even if it is a struggle. In many sane places medical care is relatively affordable i.e. socialized. I once spent a month in hospital paying around ~200€ total. And while that is an extreme privilege some access to healthcare even if poor can be found all over the world.
Humans are capable of extreme cruelty but humans are also capable of great compassion. Especially in smaller groups.
I think of myself as a neutodivergent person but I am annoyed by neurodivergent people who act like everything is binary yes/no black/white full volume/absolute silence. Like, everyone in the world knows that the gas pedal in the car is not an on/off switch and believe it or not but other things in life are like that.
Black and white thinking is pretty common in ASD though isn’t it?
Get out of here with your smart and reasonable take!
Yes, and then don’t provide “real” answers at the interview, make up stuff they want to hear, be friendly and create small talk with a complete stranger, act like you actually GAF about the company when all you want to do is just get a job and start working, screw all this people-interaction stuff.
For me, getting the interview is the hard part.
I’ve never interviewed for a job where I didn’t get the offer. I can’t say exactly what works for me, but I can explain my process a bit.
First off, I go in confident. a lot of that probably had to do with my history with interviews, but that’s the first part.
Secondly, I look at it as me interviewing the company. I want to know the company is right for me. To that end, I ask a lot of questions about the position and the team. I ask if they’re looking to fill a hole or are willing to have the role reinvented.
Obviously, that last bit is for taking a unique role in the comment, not just as cashier number 23.
I am also clear that I’m not looking to remain in that position forever. I want to work at it a few years and move on, wither within the company or elsewhere. I won’t bail in 6 months, but I also won’t do the same job with no evolution for 10 years. My career needs to grow.
Essentially, I try to interview in a manner where they’re trying to win me over instead of weed me out.
I’m my current job, I was relaxed, got the interviewers talking family and casually about the projects, started giving feedback on issues as if I was already on board, and essentially changed it from an interview to a group meeting.
It turns out I was asking for about 30% more than my competition, but they gave it to me anyway, and it all came down to making myself feel like a member of the team they wanted to hold onto rather than just someone looking for a paycheck.
And I’m absolutely there for the paycheck. I liked my old job a lot more, but I got like a 60% pay bump going to the new job.
Years ago when I was applying for my first job I actually had to pretend that it always been my dream to work as a shelf stacker. It was such a weird game because everyone involved knows that it’s a total lie, they know your just telling them what they want to hear, you know that they know that you’re just telling them what they want to hear, they know that you know that they know you’re just telling them what they want to hear. But it doesn’t matter, you still have to go through the charade.
If you tell him the truth, that you’ll disappear as soon as you find someone prepared to pay you more than minimum wage, they won’t hire you. Despite the fact that everyone involved knows that that is the case, regardless of how honest you are about it.
yes that’s the point
they want someone desperate enough to lie to them and to themselves that their childhood dream is to become a shelf stacker, they want someone out of options, they want someone who will stay with them for a long time without even as much as a whimper of a complaint about low pay or the working conditions
if you have ambitions, you’re not who they’re looking for
best believe the same company will keep a ghost job listing for a shelf stacker up at all times, just so that the current employees feel replaceable and don’t dare to step out of line in fear of losing their job
But it doesn’t change even if you’re searching for executive-level jobs. They still want to know why you not only have wanted to be Junior VP of Marketing your entire life, they want to know why you have also wanted to be Junior VP of Marketing of ConHugeCo Industries all your life while applying to work that position at ConHugeCo.
Everyone knows the answer is “because I want this job more than the one I have right now” or just “because I need a job.” Those are really the only two answers.
It’s really ridiculous.
well i think half my point still stands - they want to know you’re not quitting any time soon. If you answer “yeah sure i guess the position sounds nice” they’re already scheduling the next interview because you ain’t sticking around
but yeah, it is absolutely ridiculous, i’m not an actor, and i’m neurodivergent, navigating those job market mind games is hell
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Why yes, I do thrive under pressure. It’s why I use a weighted blanket.
I’d like to be
Under the sea
In an octopus’s garden
in the shade
Even if you don’t qualify, job hunting is just throwing your resume to the wall and see what sticks. You got nothing to lose by applying.
You got nothing to lose by applying.
Nothing to lose but your sanity.
and self esteem when a CV scanning AI sends you an automated rejection e-mail how you’re not qualified to work a job that specifically has “no qualifications or experience needed!” written in the listing
logic knows it’s bullshit, but man, it still stings to read
Every rejection email is a sting too. Even if you knew you weren’t going to get the job but applied anyway because what the hell, knowing that you’re not going to get that dream job at Nintendo still hurts a little when you find out.
And your dignity.
Yeah except then they make you fill out a really long form to actually apply because no one accepts CVs anymore
Eh, fuck em.
Send it anyway. One of em might read it.
Maybe even call you bold for applying that way.
Before I graduated I was encouraged to apply for a job that required a four year degree.
Don’t worry about it - we know you, they said.
When I submitted my application online it was automatically rejected because the application program correctly flagged that I didn’t meet the requirement of having a four year degree.
This is when you call them directly and tell them that. They can override the automation.
and if they won’t/can’t, then there’s an easy answer as to whether it’s worth working there at all
So, what do you do? The problem is it’s also difficult from the hiring side. Every opening has dozens to hundreds of applicants, most of whom are not qualified. No one can keep up with that, and recruiters/hr are horrible at it. Automation sucks, but it’s the quickest, easiest, fairest way to identify a smaller group that you hope are the ones who are qualified
We can put someone like an intern at the top of the pile because we know them, officially.
Its systems like that forced me to get an expensive qualification that I don’t need simply so humans will actually see my resume. I don’t need the qualification, I have industry experience going back over a decade but because I don’t have a magical qualification, that is recognized by the entire industry as being utterly useless, that didn’t even exist when I started in the industry I had to fork out £600.
Sounds like you need to rotate your technical staff into the recruiting process.
Do they spend any time speaking with recruitment/hr?
You don’t lie, lying will get you into trouble. You just don’t mention it if they don’t ask. And if they don’t ask it’s probably not that important. Most job descriptions are like Christmas wishlists anyway, they will be happy if they get half of it.
In my case, early in my career a contracting company lied on my behalf without telling me.
So I’m in the “skills assessment” meeting and I’m confused when they started rattling off experience from my resume that I didn’t have. I asked if I could see their copy of my resume and said “ok they made this section up, but the rest appears the same, here a printed copy of my resume unmodified”.
I was shocked and figured that was a way to tank any chance I had at the job, but they “hired” me and said people and contracting companies did it all the time, so it didn’t phase them, but admitted my resume as it was from me wouldn’t have even gotten an assessment.
These days you’re called different with a sexy word neurodivergent when you tell the truth.
Like this person I also find this strange. And like this person I also have problems during job interviews. I mean, I’m not bullshitting you and I expect you to do the same. But alas, it’s often bullshit and lowballing all the way.
You are looking at job applications from the wrong perspective. You are seeing the job description and seeing minimum requirements, when in 90% they are describing the ideal candidate that will probably never show up.
And I want to emphasise, you shouldn’t lie, you shouldn’t pad your résumé, but you should also not volunteer to testify against yourself.
My wife is super bad at not volunteering information.
She’s partially deaf and a few other issues that make phone conversations hard, so she often asks me to sit in and listen to explain anything she didn’t catch, and make sure she heard everything correctly.
I’m often making the neck cut “stop talking/mute mic” motion to get her to stop saying things the other people don’t need to hear.
For instance, she quit a previous job over an employee basically stalking her while she was on the property, and screaming in her face over any imagined sleight. This employee was a problem with others as well, but who you know is more important than how you work in some places so nothing was ever done.
The other places she interviews with don’t need the whole back story of why she quit. “Safety concerns” is completely correct, and leaves out the possibility that the new job might think you don’t work well with others. She does. The other guy didn’t.
So every time she starts telling the potential employer about it, I cut her off to remind her of that.
I’m very much the “ALL my information is need to know and you don’t need to know” kind of person when it comes to things like that, and she just kind of vomits words all over the place when she feels uncomfortable.
i’ve heard the first rule of negotiations is don’t answer any unasked questions.
That’s good advice, but my problem is that my line of thought is connected to every other line of thought. It’s quite the task to know where an answer to a question ends.
Yes, minimum requirements are not actually minimum requirements. So silly for people taking things literally.
That’s the thing, they aren’t minimum requirements. They’re a form that HR fills out based on what HR thinks the job is, not based on what the actual job is.
i often see a list of minimum and preferred.
“Minimum Bachelor’s Degree with major in Accounting, Finance or Economics”
“Prior audit or relevant accounting experience preferred, but not required.”Strikes me as “This job can be done by anyone with a high school education that knows how to open Excel, change a cell value, and send an email. Other duties as assigned.”
Then the job listing should say that instead.
I know that’s not the whole job listing, but but none of it specifies a minimum requirement for the job. The ‘minimum’ qualification just indicates that they’re not going to take note of lower qualifications, or those without an appropriate Major, not that having one is a minimum requirement. All things being equal, they’re certainly going to prefer someone with that qualification, but if you can get past the screening and show aptitude with the skills they actually need, you’ve got a chance.
I know that’s not the whole job listing, but but none of it specifies a minimum requirement for the job.
People here expecting a bureaucracy to behave not only like a person, but like a honest and transparent person with simple and plainly stated goals…
They’re not usually labeled “minimum requirements”
That may be what you’re interpreting, but they’re usually titled “ideal applicants will have the following” which isn’t the same thing
It feels like the same thing to people with rigid views on the world, but they are not the same.
It’s not people with rigid world views, but people who don’t know the social cues/“legalese” of job speak.
AKA local bullshit.
I frequently see a list of minimum separate from preferred. Here’s an example.
Entirely!
But not all systems have that feature.
If s not a requirement if it is optional or noce-to-have!
Which means the company is lying. Respond to them with this knowledge in hand, any way that you see as appropriate.
Lying by omission is still lying. And if they weren’t hard requirements, they should say so. So many job listings I’ve seen word it like those are the minimum requirements.
It’s only wrong if you get caught!
I find it entertaining that the criteria for neurodivergence includes telling the truth.
I find it concerning that lying is apparently always an option for NTs.
I was taught that lying is a sin and if I do it I will burn in hell for all enteeity. Also, that it is expected that I lie on basically every form I’m provided, mostly by ommission but other ways too.
There’s a reason I rarely feel hopeful.
I’m autistic and lying is always an option for me too. I’m extremely good at it. I just don’t do it, because it’s wrong and harmful.
Isn’t it annoying that the majority of time when it is pointed out that an entire system is based on lying and misrepresentation that the excuse is either ‘that’s just how it is’ or ‘everyone does it’ as if that makes it right somehow.
Neurotypical just seems to be going along with everyone else’s bullshit to avoid conflict.
Many people mistake cowardice for wisdom.
That’s the whole communication gap. When allistic people talk they will almost always lie or say something other than what they mean, which gives the other person the opportunity to lie or ignore what they meant if it suits them. This is what’s known as being “polite.”
That’s an intentionally rigid view of the world.
The communication gap is that rigidity.
For example, it may say “minimum requirements” on the web form, but let’s put ourselves into the shoes of the person filling it out. Are they SUPER strict on these minimums? Or are they just filling out the form the best they can?
Usually it says sobering along the lines of “ideal candidates” and not “bare minimum” but you likely won’t see that due to overly rigid views on the world.
What if they made a mistake when filling it out, and added things to the “bare minimum “ that aren’t really that harsh a requirement?
It’s a grey area, it’s not a direct lie and you know that, you just don’t like it.
Saying it’s a lie assumes you know the intention of the person writing it, and that they intended to deceive you. And you can’t possibly know that either.
It’s Not a lie and you’re misrepresenting your knowledge of the scenario when you say that.
As an autistic I resolve this in my head by reminding myself that words can have different meanings.
For example
(“How are you?” -> “I’m fine how are you?” -> “Doing well, thanks”)
actually means
(“hello” -> “hello”)It’s code. The meaning is precise, and it’s not a false question. It’s a symbolic question.
It’s an equivalent meaning in the same way that:
(“hola” -> “hola”)
means the same thing as
(“hello” -> “hello”)English is, therefore, not just one language. English is many languages using the same set of words.
Beautiful and thoughtful response.
I’m peak ADHD, and I often use the same type of thing
Wait hold on.
Are you saying NT lie all the time or ND lie all the time?
Because neither of those is true?
Or if it is, it explains my ex a whole lot better
NT people lie and or talk around what they mean rather than say it directly. Neurodivergent people, especially autistic people, are not like this and find it taxing to deal with.
That doesn’t make any sense. Yes, I have ADHD and not ASD, so yes I have a slightly easier time with social interactions, but NT don’t lie or avoid direct language. They try to minimize the harm of their words.
That’s like me stating that ND people lack empathy, and they are insulting because they don’t care about the other person’s feelings.
…and the rules change at a whim, it is never consistent…
Plus they vary massively from culture to culture and region to region, but are all treated as the right way to behave.
I’m my experience, even if you get caught. The exaggeration to get your foot in the door is expected, and everyone is expected to represent themselves deceptively well. Honesty in the interview when everyone can deal with nuance can work and might be appreciated, but definitely a little exaggeration in the resume unless you have ungodly actual credentials/connections.
I’m not telling you not tell the truth, I’m telling you to consider that list of skills on a job description is a wishlist and only answer what is asked in the interview.
I’ve interviewed more people than I can count, leading to more hirings than I can count, and I don’t remember any case where the candidate met all the checkboxes on the ideal skillset. Because what goes in the job description is the perfect candidate not the minimum.
When I found out the list of qualifications could be filled on the job it made applying a lot easier because I was no longer worried about bring ‘found out’ for not being fully qualified on day one. I blame the position wording making it sound like day one requirements and HR treating them as day one requirements
So you’re saying that you’re the one doing the lying when you fill out the job description?
Also, if you think enough about what a lie even is you can rationalize a lot. Am I a self motivated and highly organized person? Well, nobody’s ever described me that way before, but maybe I could start being one right now, stranger things have happened. And if it all blows up a few months down the line because I couldn’t manage to get my shit together, I’ll take my couple of paychecks and tell myself “well, I meant to do better” and that will be at least 51% true and I will have a couple of paychecks I wouldn’t have otherwise.
Alternatively, just find a way to sell your weaknesses as strengths. e.g. “I’m not always super organized, but I’m real good at dropping in to a chaotic situations on short notice and getting the essential things straightened out quickly because my disorganized nature has forced me to learn those skills. I’m not self motivated, so you don’t need to worry about me undermining your plans and vision for this place with my own, making decisions makes me nervous so you do that stuff and I will see that your decisions are carried out.”
I am having such a problem with this right now. Everyone says, “apply for this, who cares if you don’t fit the qualifications?” And I’m like, “they probably care.” I just have a hard time believing some company is going to look at my resume when I don’t fit the criteria and then hire me. I am going way out of my safety zone on that right now, but I’m still not convinced.
Most recruiters have no idea what they are recruiting for. It’s like a game of telephone, by the time the job description reaches you, it has gone through so much dressing and corparatification it either describes a whole IT deparment or nothing specific at all.
Getting hired needs an entirely different set of skill than whatever job you will do. Well except maybe if it’s marketing, because the whole process seems like a song and dance where you need to sell yourself.
yeah but what if you’re wrong? it’s not like it would hurt to apply anyways
