Star Trek is and always has been deeply and inherently political
People whined about black hobbits and elves.
What?! Fashion-Lizard and his Sidekick Dr.Twink are Woke?! I can’t believe it!
Well, it did take a while for Fashion-Lizard to stop being Fascism-Lizard.
Don’t forget that the whole Federation is a post captialist utopia which is a political statement in itself.
Don’t forget that the whole Federation is a post captialist utopia which is a political statement in itself.
Great point!
“‘No need for/Evolved past the need for money’ … yeah, wtf, lets just completely ignore that ever-present bit, it’s too scary & perverted to comprehend.”
- avg capitalists Trekkie (or “Trekkie”)
Wait until people finally get the epiphany that Star Trek is advocating for a world government. And how many here, including outside the Internet, would actually like that?
Precisely.
IIRC, a world government is a prerequisite for joining the Federation isn’t it?
I don’t know. I might like that? It depends a lot on how it is implemented and who is in charge. 😅
And how much power the global government has compared to individual regions.
World government advocates would want a democray with a strong constitution that ensures checks and balance, and a federal system.
I liked Trek before Alex Kurzman stuck his filthy fingers in it and made entire franchise a steaming pile of dog shit.
Haha, true that.
But he tried.
I like scifi. I like to explore the strange and push past the walls of reality. I like dangerous visions. Big ideas.
But interpersonal drama, identity-stroking and, yes, politics. It’s just weak and boring. It’s small. Damn small.
Do you see the difference?
Sometimes startrek goes big. Sometimes it doesn’t.
You need good characters to make a good show regardless of the setting, and also to help the viewers relate to the “big” stuff going on around them.
Don’t get me wrong, I think I like the stuff you like. I’d happily watch a documentary about all the made up technology and new science & life they discover, with zero need for conflict or personal growth or “feelings” or whatever. But that wouldn’t be the TV show, which is experienced largely through the eyes of the crew.
Sci-fi is at its best when it recontextualizes an idea in a way that makes us consider it from a different perspective.
Battlestar Galactica did an awesome job of turning the issues around entirely. Famously, it essentially turned the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan on their heads in Season 3, and you had the good guys building IEDs and employing suicide bombers to kill collaborators.
But my favorite one was when they came up with a situation in which outlawing abortion was necessary, and the political opposition used it as an opportunity to manufacture outrage and steal an election even though they didn’t actually care about the issue at all.
But you don’t need spaceships and aliens to do that. It’s just fetishwear at that point.
In real scifi it isn’t fetishwear. It actually serves a purpose.
The spaceships and aliens are how you get people to look at it from a new perspective.
The early seasons of DS9 were about the aftermath of the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan and the fall of the Soviet Union. 1990s Americans couldn’t have cared less about the dangers of far-right religious indoctrination of schoolchildren, the re-intrigation of traumatized resistance fighters into peacful society, the cautious restoration of political and economic ties with former occupiers, and the danger of the discovery of a new resource in the territory of a politically and militarily fragile nation full of extremists.
But throw in phasers and a warp drive and people will watch. Suddenly you’ve tricked people into recognizing that people with different backgrounds and religions can embrace their differences to make the world a better place, or reject that unity and create suffering. You have capitalists and socialists sharing space in peace. There’s an invented taboo against rekindling an old relationship that’s actually about gay rights.
All these amazing topics are brought to an audience that just wanted laser fights.
Any genre show can do it. My parents were as red-blooded Republican as anyone, but the third episode of The Last of Us had them crying tears of joy and pain over the love story between 2 men. It tricked them into becoming open-minded by promising zombies.
That’s fiction at its finest.
Yes, like I said, fetishwear. Nonfunctional costumery
Their function is using them to introduce concepts to an audience that may not otherwise be interested or receptive.
Yes, I get the point.
politics is all-encompassing, it can be as big or as small as anything else
Oh, OG Trek was woke AF, but it wasn’t done as ham-handed and hackey as what is happening now. It used to feed open-mindedness into everyone’s living room and was generally welcome to do so. What we have now is just slapping you in the face with its floppy cock of wokeness every chance it gets. There is now almost no actual plot other than that. Doctor Who is doing the exact same thing. Can nothing of my childhood just be left the fuck alone? I mean, yeah, represent the marginalized. Make female heroes, or transgender, or whatever and whoever you feel needs to be represented or empowered. Do all of that, but do you have to rewrite absolutely everything ever written to do it? Have an original thought. Honestly, at this point, it is just lazy writing masquerading as woke.
but it wasn’t done as ham-handed and hackey as what is happening now.
I’d also drag out Angel One from TNG. It’s the laziest way to write a matriarchy: everything is the same, except women are in charge instead of men.
I’m sure if we tried hard enough, we could find hackneyed, ham-handed episodes across all Star Trek shows.
For example, this attempt at discussing gender norms:
I think this comment really nails what’s irking me amount newer Trek. It used to be a show that was written in a way that regardless of your politics, anyone could watch, and it would make you think. It was a show that would sneakily slip in progressive ideas that could make you second guess your perspectives on the world.
Now there is no depth to it, it just slaps you in the face with politics.
This is probably gonna be a hot take, but I think Star Trek should be written in a way that is appealing for conservatives to watch, but regularly slips in metaphors which challenges their world view. Trek was at it’s best when on it’s surface it was a fun adventure show, and the politics was on a deeper level.
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I think this is generally what I hear when it comes to “woke” media. I always chalk it up to media having no clue on how normal humans function in a society.
Explain more about how your childhood is ruined by political messaging in checks notes
Modern Doctor Who and Star Trek. The best written and acted shows of all time, obviously.
it’s done plainly in reference to real life now, as opposed to being integrated seamlessly into the show. a good example would be the episode where the doctor had to erase his mind and Martha (a black woman) had to try and protect him while posing as his servant because it was the 1800s when they were stranded. this was still in real history (aliens aside) but was integrated as part of the plotline and not randomly mentioned with no context. a good example of when they get this wrong is the special with the meep where Donna’s daughter says something along the lines of “I’m nonbinary because the doctor-donna is binary” which doesn’t make sense in the story because the doctor-donna is binary due to Donna literally merging with the doctor, not gender identity. these things can be integrated well and when you do they only enhance the story by making it feel more realistic, but you have to make them fit the story, not the other way round.
“I’m nonbinary because the doctor-donna is binary”
My eyes rolled all the way to the back of my head when i saw this bit
I get what they were trying to do but it was such a cop out instead of writing an actual explanation.
That, or:
Your brain wasn’t fully developed because you were a child.
I rewatched the whole show just a couple months ago and I didn’t watch TV much as a kid so I only saw a handful of episodes then. this is my current, up to date opinion.
I never understood that complaint about Star Trek. The series has ALWAYS been woke since the beginning.
Kinda like people complaining Rage Against the Machine becoming political.
Always has been.True in a way, but it was more philosophical and not “in your face”. It made you think about it, and the story was way waay better and deeper than today’s pew-pew starwars approach to star trek. Every episode had a meaning and a lession.
Yeah the problem isn’t the ideals being in there but how bad the story is makes the ideals seem like a cheap crutch.
Compare Brokeback Mountain to Ben and Arthur. Both movies about the relationship between gay men and society. Both say gay people should be treated fairly by socity but aren’t. The first does it in interesting way with great storytelling and ideas. The later is a hamfisted mess.
I’m not going to say modern Trek is Ben and Arthur bad but it is much closer to Ben and Arthur writing then it is to Brokeback Mountain.
True in a way, but it was more philosophical and not “in your face”.
they did the first US interracial kiss during a time that would be controversial.
it was “in your face”
It was much better integrated into the story. The problem isn’t the message, it’s the writing.
It reminds me of those people that claim The X-Men have gotten “woke” even though that’s been the whole point of the comic since the 60’s or worse yet those poor souls out there who thought Rage Against the Machine was getting too political lol
Reminds me of a YouTube comment under the video where they got cut of during a bbc live take for singing “fuck” after the production team brieft them to not sing fuck: “What machine they thought they rage against? The printer?”
“Please, if you find one of our songs that isn’t political, please show it to me so I can verify and have it removed.” - Tom Morello
There’s a lot in renegades
I wonder what these people think “the machine” means 😭
the printer obvs
Fuck you, I won’t print what you tell me
Low on cyan
printing in black and white
If first interracial kiss on TV is Woke then I don’t wanna be anything but.
Don’t forget The Measure of a Man. We literally watched that in 9th grade American History, as a commentary about slavery.
No mebtion of space communism? The federation is Marxist
The Federation is not Marxist, communist, or socialist. These economic systems rely on a monetary framework where scarcity dictates value. In the Star Trek universe, scarcity has been eliminated on Earth. There is no energy crisis, no poverty, and no starvation. Transportation is instantaneous, and every individual’s basic needs are met. With no financial struggle, humanity is no longer constrained by the pursuit of wealth. The Federation is not built on enforced equality but on a shared enlightenment. With abundant resources, every person enjoys a high standard of living.
What? No. Marxism notes that scarcity wouldn’t be a thing with increasing industrialization. Indeed, it isn’t; we have plenty of resources to put a roof over everyone’s head and food in their belly. The base of Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs can be completely covered, and the rest are not necessarily best fulfilled by mere material possessions. We could have the whole thing done in a year if society simply made the choice.
Now, I don’t think the Federation is Marxist, because we actually know very little about how the economy works at all. There’s contradictory information, it might depend on what time period or planet you’re talking about, and the writers have generally been uninterested in exploring the economy beyond superficial mentions.
No. You’re just wrong and in every aspect.
Please refer to my responses further down in this thread.
When you are in post scarcity and everyone has everything they need and everyone works together ina government for mutual benefit that’s Marxist communism.
No it’s not. (I have to be honest with you. You clearly have no clue what Marxism or communism is and yet you make a declarative statement that holds no water at all; why?)
While the Star Trek universe presents a post-scarcity society where money is largely obsolete and resources are distributed based on need, it diverges significantly from Karl Marx’s vision of communism. Marxist communism is fundamentally rooted in class struggle, revolution, and the eventual withering away of the state. The Star Trek Federation, however, remains highly structured, hierarchical, and governed by an institutionalized bureaucracy, notably Starfleet.
Moreover, technological advancements such as replicators eliminate material scarcity, a condition Marx never accounted for in his theories. Instead of a classless, stateless society emerging from historical struggle, Star Trek depicts a future where economic necessity is bypassed through technology, and individuals contribute based on personal fulfillment rather than class-driven labor dynamics.
a future where economic necessity is bypassed through technology, and individuals contribute based on personal fulfillment rather than class-driven labor dynamics.
Yeah, however not all higher Maslows can be replicated, so obviously a fair bit of (popular or bureaucratic) meritocracy is incorporated into the redistribution and/or accesses to finite resources.
(But the main point is that if individuals have the option to pursue personal fulfilment that is a huge net plus for the society & everyone can get more out of their life & life within that society - imagine only having people in the food industry that fully enjoy the work or the huge selection of artists not pre-smothered by the daily grind for basic human needs.)
As you said, much data is missing, but I assume if I wanted a nicer office or an apparent with a better view I could get to it via contributing something of merit to society (eg a successful career, notable art contributions, maybe some hero stuff, etc).
How come the Picard real estates remained in the family though all those generations, I can’t fully explain. Tho there basically was a revolution (a world war, but same diff) that facilitated initial systematic changes (I assume a much decimated/irrelevant previously-elite class).
How come the Picard real estates remained in the family though all those generations, I can’t fully explain.
Doyalist answer: the writers laid out shipboard EPS conduits more thoughtfully than the Federation economy.
Marx never considered replicators much like he never considered sorcery as an option because he worked within the framework of the reality of his time. He was engaging in practical philosophy not fantasy which is why you see the focus on a class struggle as in his time.
The federation has no money and everyone has what they need according to their needs how isn’t that Marx’ ideal? If you could achieve socialism without revolution IRL he would have backed that but in reality you cannot hope for the privileged to give up their power.
I don’t think you should be declaring your assessments of people’s understanding if things given you are factually incorrect in this case and you are not in any way telepathic.
I literally stated how it’s not Marxist… I’m pretty sure that I even proved it in my statement originally.
Marxist communism envisions a classless, stateless society where the means of production are communally owned. Post-scarcity could theoretically contribute to this, but Marxist thought emphasizes the historical process of class struggle and the eventual dissolution of the state. If a government still exists in your scenario, it may not fully align with Marx’s final stage of communism, which predicts the state “withering away.”
How do you read this and go no it is Marxist I’m right.
Again this is because Marx was concerned with reality. Science Fiction wasn’t even a genre to speak of in his lifetime. He might have considered non-violent tech driven communism had that been remotely conceivable at the time but during his time electrical power was rare.
Marx was a huge influence on Roddenberry’s views of The Federation.
Well
End-game socialist
I mean Sisko kind of does when he describes how the Bell riots have to take place before we unite as a planet and join the Federation
My favorite detail of the TNG episode “The Outcast” is that the writers were pushing for an episode that touched on sexuality but Rick Berman wouldn’t go for it. So the writers gave a figurative “fuck you” and wrote an episode on gender identity instead.
And while Berman was occupied holding TNG back the DS9 writers had enough freedom to use the Dax symbiote’s multiple lifetimes to explore sexuality instead.
The DS9 writers would sometimes write a script that they knew would be approved and then give the actors “suggested improvised lines” for what they actually wanted.
Does anyone else remember that TNG had a recurring background character who was just a regular crewman but he always wore a Star Fleet dress or skirt that would just walk around in the background of scenes? He may have had heels as well, I can’t remember. Regardless I always thought it was neat that they never made a big deal out of it or a joke
Its a type of uniform called a Skant. It was TNG trying to make the TOS miniskirts unisex. It only lasted a couple seasons I think, but it’s gotten a couple callbacks on Lower Decks.
Trek on gender: “Don’t care, will smash” – Kirk & Ryker
PS: Memba when Ryker was captured by a pre-First Contact civ and he had to bribe a nurse with an alien kink with sex in order to escape? Pepperidge Farms remembers.
*“Will smash, won’t even think about care”
And even when Wesley momma didn’t want to smooch with the nice parasitic lady it was respectfully addressed.
(How or why was all that kept quiet in the first place just remained a barely plastered-over plot hole.)Wesley’s momma is more into banging ghosts and getting a face full of ectoplasm, especially if the ghost was also banging her grandma.
Lol, true!
The soul is willing but the flesh is spongey and bruised!
I remember that being a little more “coercive and rapey” than bribing, since the nurse was the one who demanded “fuck me and I’ll set you free, or you can wait for whatever they are going to do to you.”
I get Riker is full of fucks to give, but he didn’t seem terribly pleased with not having a choice.
I always took his reluctance being about the report he was going to have to make about the incident.
True
Of course I to, I fucking love that episode. I think the Nurse was Lilith from Frasier and the aunt from Jumanji? Questionable consent vibes aside that episode is hilarious and amazing
