Maryland House Democrats introduced a controversial gun safety bill requiring gun owners to forfeit their ability to wear or carry without firearm liability insurance.
Introduced by Del. Terri Hill, D-Howard County, the legislation would prohibit the “wear or carry” of a gun anywhere in the state unless the individual has obtained a liability insurance policy of at least $300,000.
"A person may not wear or carry a firearm unless the person has obtained and it covered by liability insurance issued by an insurer authorized to do business in the State under the Insurance Article to cover claims for property damage, bodily injury, or death arising from an accident resulting from the person’s use or storage of a firearm or up to $300,000 for damages arising from the same incident, in addition to interest and costs,” the proposed Maryland legislation reads.
Seems fair. If the risk is low, cost will be low. Let the free market decide, right?
It will be low. Super low. $300k is pocket change when the incidence for gun carriers to use them is extremely low. It’s why we can constantly mock the tacti-cool warriors for thinking they need a gun on them at all times. Plus, the insurance company has way more flexibility in proving their client was not at fault in the incident compared to the shenanigans they have to pull now for car wrecks.
It’s hard to imagine a reasonable objection, then. I don’t trust insurance companies very much, but if there’s one thing they do well, it’s associating risk with cost.
It’s why we can constantly mock the tacti-cool warriors for thinking they need a gun on them at all times.
That’s doesn’t make sense. We mock them for thinking they’re in danger without a gun. Insurance is for the danger they create by carrying a gun.
thinking they need a gun on them at all times
thinking they’re in danger without a gun
Yes, that’s what was said
Its cheap because theres almost no risk. Tiger attack insurance is very cheap in the US too.
So whats the point? Insurance cant possibly solve any actual problems associated with gun violence.
I would bet that tiger attack insurance for someone who brings a tiger with then in public would be astronomical.
The point is to put the burden of cost where it actually belongs. Instead of society footing the bill, now gun owners will pay into an insurance system that will cover costs in the event of damage.
Ok, I’ll try a better analogy. Why not require fist-punching insurance for anyone who wants to take their hands out in public?
Personal liability insurance exists. It’s often included in home or renter’s insurance. If someone knows they’re likely to end up in a lawsuit because they love punching people, it would behoove them to get that.
But the damage that can be done by a pair of fists is often a low enough dollar number (and jail time) that it can reasonably be paid by the person owning them. A broken orbital socket is a hell of a lot cheaper than, say, three people’s lives. There’s also unlikely to be collateral damage with fists, since they can only travel so far. Most people can’t pay for the damages in a shooting event, and right now that cost is instead being covered by taxpayers.
Insurance isn’t for the small things, like a broken window or punching someone. It’s for very expensive, sometimes catastrophic damage.
Well, CCW insurance really only covers legal costs associated with CCW use. Unfortunately in some states, it’s entirely possible (and in some states likely!) that someone who uses their firearm in self defense can get charged with a crime or sued by their attackers, regardless of how justified their use of force was.
I’m aware of some policies that cover third party damages like hospital bills and property damage, but the victims in this case are never held liable anyway.
So am I missing something? Especially given that practically all gun violence and deaths come from suicide and organized crime, how does this bill help anyone? CCW holders are statistically much less likely to break laws than those who don’t have a license, these people really shouldn’t worry anyone. This reeks of political posturing to me.
Edit: Just read that the law requires bodily harm and property damage coverage, so nevermind. The only scenario where the CCW holder would be liable for those damages is if their use of force isn’t justified, so I’m still not sure how this helps anyone.
Well insurance companies might deny coverage for people with a documented past of mental illness or violent behavior, which is more due diligence than many states are apparently putting in.
I mean it’s fucked and the proper solution should of course be regulation and proper background checks should not be too much to expect, but if everything has to be a “free market” masquerade then that would still be better than nothing (though I agree not by very much).
That’s still not going to stop any crimes. They still have the right to buy it, if they can pass the background check. If they want to commit a crime with it, the fact that it’s illegal to do so without insurance means nothing and prevents nothing.
Yeah, that’s the typical “but murder is already illegal!” pro-gun argument. I don’t think insurance policies are a good solution, but if it at least prevents the “mostly law-abiding citizen with anger issues who will use a gun against someone if given an excuse, but is too much of a pussy to carry one around illegally” from getting a gun, then that’s better than nothing.
You still don’t seem to understand that this would not prevent anyone from getting a gun. It would not, read up on the details.
I can read. My point is that lots of people buy a gun specifically to carry it in public. If they know they are uninsurable and won’t be able to carry it without getting into legal trouble (assuming there is a dissuasive penalty for illegally carrying… which is doubtful), they might not get a gun.
Sure, you can make up a lot a scenarios where this law is completely ineffective but you also can’t pretend that it necessarily won’t have any effect.
That’s certainly what I’ve been told. The statistics look a little sketchy to me on that front, but I’m not a mathematician and insurance companies will surely do a better analysis than anyone on this thread.
The only sure thing is that insurance companies will try to make as much money off this as possible, especially if it becomes required by law to have.
That’s where competition is important. Get a bunch of insurers in the market and the profits they leech will be minimal. But health insurance is a fucking debacle over profits, so I definitely hear your concern.
Ask Floridians looking for flood or even just normal home insurance how competition is working for them.
The problem there is insuring housing isn’t financially viable because climate change has made it too costly to mass-build houses as often as they are destroyed. That’s not really similar to the gun violence marketplace.
The idea her is if folks can persuade insurance companies that they are stable and responsible enough, insurance for them will be cheap. Meanwhile folks with domestic violence records or violent felonies would be priced out of having a gun or at least have the ability to bear the financial burden if something goes wrong. This is by no means a great solution, but 2A absolutists have the supreme court and the law is essentially that reasonable regulation isn’t possible.
Until that changes, I’ll accept a market solution.
Don’t some states have laws about profitability caps on insurance?
There were stories of some insurance companies refunding policy holders during COVID due to excess profits.
Now think about any of the school shootings and the amount of guns they used. Do you see a kid buying some guns AND having to have an insurance?
Well the liability aspect does include some risk.
It also depends if it’s on the weapon or person.
Specifically if the gun insured is used in a crime or to cause see harm. It doesn’t have to be the most extreme scenario.
If it’s per gun, that could easily be hundreds or thousands per month per gun hoarder.
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Free market pricing. Requiring someone to be indemnified when they are taking on risk greater than they could ever hope to repay if something goes wrong seems perfectly reasonable to me.
Pay to carry seems pretty not ok to me.
But it’s pay to drive, right? I suppose driving isn’t mentioned in the bill of rights, but I’d argue neither is the individual right to wield a firearm.
You pay for car accidents and they don’t pay out for intentional stuff. You don’t really hear much about accidental shootings from people while they’re out carrying. The act of carrying isn’t dangerous.
The act of carrying is inherently more dangerous than not. That is an indisputable fact that you don’t even need statistics to know. I am infinitely more likely to die by a firearm if it exists in the first place rather than not.
People living with handgun owners died by homicide at twice the rate of their neighbors in gun-free homes. That difference was driven largely by homicides at home, which were three times more common among people living with handgun owners.
I claim you’re ignorant and your link is not anything to do with being out conceal carrying. Your argument also is of “guns not existing” rather than one of “people wanting to legally carry needing to pay.”
They are not the same thing.
I provided a link to evidence illustrating my point that the presence of a gun presents a greater risk of dying to a firearm. The study is about a different situation, but both deal with the presence of firearms. I would welcome evidence to the contrary rather than insults because I am engaging you here in good faith.
I say adding a gun to any situation increases the chances of a gun being used simply because it is present. More guns in more places = more opportunities for them to be used. I think that is simple logic, and again I welcome you to refute it.
This is something that requires people who carry weapons in public to be capable of providing restitution to anyone harmed by their actions. I can’t see a massive harm in it other than disproportionately affecting the poor.
Obviously, if no guns exist, no guns can be used. That isn’t even worth you bringing up. But since they do exist and are present, this is just a silly money grab and/or a way to restrict and even further incarcerate the poor half of the country. Making someone pay money to be allowed to carry around anything is just asinine. What next? Shall we charge you a fee for your propane bottle because you can make it explode? Your pencil because you can stab someone with it? Charge extra if you live above the 2nd story because you could push someone to their death?
There are literally millions of people who conceal carry every day. The ones who would pay insurance or simply stop carrying aren’t the ones hurting people. The “insurance” would just be for them. It wouldn’t be for the people you want to worry about.
Yeah but if we can’t drive around shooting our guns as a protected freedom of expression, are we really free?
You are walking around with a deadly weapon. We test, register, and insure people who drive around with a deadly weapon.
Nothing about the 2A says you do not assume liability for exercising your right. ain fact, all of US case on this would say the opposite. You absolutely assume liability for both what you do with your weapons, and what you fail to do with your weapons.
There is a definable risk to life and property associated with carrying. And the cost of that risk should be born by those perpetuating it. I hear carrying supposedly makes things safer, so presuming the actuarial tables agree that cost should be totally nominal in which case why not?
Well then everyone who doesn’t carry should be paying the insurance by your logic.
Awesome. We’re going to apply it to cops too, right?
Right?
Did you read the article? Yes, it applies to police.
LOLLLLLLL if you think it’ll make it to a final vote without a law enforcement exemption being added.
Yes, I quoted it in one of my other comments.
The law is not final yet, though. I’m sure there will be a wall of whine coming from the cops about how they’re so special and should be exempted. The real test will be if the legistlature capitulates or leaves them in there.
Fuck reading
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Some states require nurses to buy their own personal liability insurance, but cops get a pass. Does that seem right?
In a lot of states you need to get a license to be a hairdresser but not to be a cop.
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They already have insurance: you as the taxpayer.
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You think you’re making a clear point, but you aren’t.
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Are you being deliberately difficult?
You clearly said cops having liability insurance doesn’t make any sense and then doubled down by arguing that it’s because they have us the taxpayers instead.
If cops needed to get individual insurance and the ones that were reckless had to pay more or maybe even stop being cops because they can’t be insured, it would probably help.
Regardless, it comes off as if you are against it on top of belittling the above poster.
What they’re saying does make sense, it would just have to come with a few additional changes. Like making law enforcement officers easier to sue directly. Colorado has already revoked qualified immunity. It seems like you are being overly pedantic. No single step will fix the problem but the comment you are replying to is a step in a direction to address the issue
What I’m saying makes perfect sense.
Police misconduct is so rampant specifically because the taxpayer picks up the tab. Cops themselves can weasel out of being responsible for just about anything because they’re shielded by their department, or city, or state, or whatever. But if we held them personally accountable – financially, in this case – that’d stop that bullshit quick smart and in a hurry. Doctors have to carry insurance personally. So do truck drivers. You want to know why? Because those jobs hold the potential for catastrophically fucking up, with consequences very likely to affect other people. Why should cops be any different?
At the very least this should apply to all police who are not currently clocked in, in uniform, and on duty. Out here in the real world they have to play by the same rules as the rest of us.
Ha. Actually, from TFA:
As the bill is currently written, local and state law enforcement officers are not exempt from the insurance requirement.
So guess who else agrees with me.
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I agree with you overall, but I expect taxes will just go up by however much is required to cover the insurance for the officers, so we will continue to pay for their malfeasance.
These proposals would ultimately manifest in insurance for white peopel costing less and black people and hispanics costing more. All this does is price minorities out of gun rights. The whites will be fine, good thing they’re not the ones comitting the vast majority of gun terrorism . . . Oh wait I’ve just received some devastating statistics . . .
Insurance underwriters would surely base their insurance premiums off that very information. I think this may be a rare case of insurance actually being somewhat fair considering race.
Then again, Baltimore.
The overwhelming majority of gun deaths are sucide, organized crime also has a high share. The insurance premiums are not going to be based on whos more likely to do a mass shooting they’re gonna be based on every payout they prospectivly have to make. So people who will get the highest rates will be minorities and those seeking mental health treatment. So the best way to keep your premium low would be to be white and not seek mental health treatment. That’s not exactly behavior I would like financially incentivised.
I don’t know, based off the information you’re working with, we’re assuming that the gun insurers would be on the hook for life insurance claims?
That’s different than liability, which is what’s proposed here
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Don’t be a sucker. If dogshit gun laws made minorities safer, America would be the safest country in the world by a massive margin.
Concern trolling, classic.
wanna back that up with data?
Sure, here you go, exactly the kinds and sources and data insurers are going to look at https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/72/wr/mm7226a9.htm
Seems to imply the biggest risks for insuring are Black men. White men come in even lower than Black women. I’m sure actuaries will pull more than just this graph but it’s pretty indicative of how it will shake out. Unless of course you have some sources you’d like to cite that imply otherwise.
The whites will be fine, good thing they’re not the ones comitting the vast majority of gun terrorism . . . Oh wait I’ve just received some devastating statistics . . .
I guess i misunderstood this line… the first part sure. i guess. there are poor white people too. but ok. the second part sounds like you’re being sarcastic about the first part… which is contradicted by the numbers you posted… so… i guess im still confused as to your stance.
I’m not very opinionated on guns tbh, but I do think this only makes it more difficult for poor people. I’m not sure I agree with that.
If you think that’s bad, I had to get a $1,000,000 umbrella coverage policy for our swimming pool to cover liability in case someone gets injured. I don’t think it’s unreasonable at all
SCOTUS would say that the distinction is that we don’t have a fundamental right under the Constitution to have a swimming pool on our property. But we do have a fundamental right to possess firearms.
As established in District of Columbia v. Heller and McDonald v. City of Chicago, the Second Amendment protects an individual’s right to possess firearms for lawful purposes, such as self-defense. Any state law impacting this right would be subject to judicial scrutiny and likely strict scrutiny. Strict scrutiny is applied when a law impacts a fundamental right or involves a suspect classification. Such laws must be narrowly tailored to serve a compelling government interest.
While the right to bear arms is protected, the Supreme Court acknowledges that this right is not absolute and can be subject to regulations. Restrictions such as background checks and prohibitions for certain individuals (like felons or the mentally ill) have been upheld.
However there is legal precedent that excessive economic barriers to exercising a fundamental right can be problematic. For instance, in Harper v. Virginia State Board of Elections (1966), the Court struck down a poll tax as it constituted a barrier to the fundamental right to vote.
Given these principles, a mandatory $300,000 insurance policy could be seen as a substantial economic barrier to exercising the right to bear arms. The Court would likely assess whether the law is justifiable under strict scrutiny. If the state argues that the law serves public safety, the Court would consider whether it’s narrowly tailored to that interest.
If the requirement disproportionately affects lower-income individuals, the Court might view it as an undue burden on the fundamental right to bear arms, similar to how poll taxes were viewed as barriers to voting rights.
All of this is very stupid, and does not happen in normal liberal democracies
Ultimately we need to thank the Roberts Court for teaching Americans that previously established rulings can be overturned, a la Roe
I’m thinking when the pendulum swings back and liberals control the court, we’ll take a closer look at the part of the 2nd amendment that says ‘we’ll regulated’.
‘we’ll regulated’
Can you imagine the chaos if SCOTUS took a second look at the 2nd amendment (in the original document, for some reason… just go with it) and found an apostrophe?
It’s been chilling there since 1789. How is this the first time somebody noticed it? What tf is “a we’ll regulated militia” supposed to entail?? What will be the rippling effects on the state of national politics???
Find out on the next episode of Alternate History by a Pedantic Loser on Lemmy! (I’m sorry)
I mean there are spelling mistakes in the document I’m pretty sure ;p
Even if that potential court swing does happen, we will still be keeping the guns. Americans have 400 million or more of them already, in private hands, mostly unregistered.
I would personally never give up that right, regardless of the law. It’s a fundamental human right to self defense.
Number 1 cause of death for children is gunshot. Gotta do something about that even if it does mean you can’t have a tomahak missile to protect you from burglary.
That’s a very misleading fake statistic and if you look at the total number of children in the USA who are killed OR injured by firearms annually, it amounts to a tiny fraction of the overall population, and 99.9999% of children are not killed or injured by any firearm.
So I reject your tired “but think of the children” excuse to put any limits on the freedom of American citizens.
Anything that doesn’t confirm your bias is a misleading fake statistic. Also lol at the freedom thing because the guns are literally the excuse the government has used to create a massive police state where everything from middle schools to the post office has its own police force authorized to kill or arrest you and send you to do slave labor in the prison system.
It’s not the “gotcha” you might want it to be, for dry jurisprudence reasons.
If you take the originalist approach Scalia and Thomas advocate, the original intent as written meant not ‘control’ or ‘restriction’ but ‘orderly’ or ‘well provisioned’ when speaking of military units like armies and militias. No fun, that’s the sticky web we have currently so moving on
THEN you are left with the other end - interpretation using modern means. However there’s a problem here too, because the Bill of Rights follows a template for the text of each amendment outlining “the right of the people [to do X]” and courts have already interpreted that in amendments 1 through 9 that they secure individual rights. 2A has been agreed to be an individual right, just like the other eight, in major cases in 1931 under Miller, 2008 in Heller, and again and again at state and local court levels.
Go get an amendment and do it right, don’t gut the rest of the Bill of Rights. We undid prohibition, slavery, limited suffrage, etc
It doesn’t prevent you from keeping and bearing arms, it makes you responsible if you choose to carry a firearm with you, which isn’t a fundamental right and never has been.
It imposes a new financial and bureaucratic penalty on all who wish to exercise their fundamental right of self-defense in any area that is not their home. The text of the 2nd amendment does not say that the right to keep and bear arms shall be conditioned on compliance with everchanging insurance requirements. It says that it shall not be infringed.
I agree with your point. But our opinions don’t matter. There are 6 people on SCOTUS right now who will see this differently than us, and, ultimately, their opinions are the only ones that matter. And their opinions are not subject to appeal or oversight - they are absolute in matters of Constitutional interpretation.
We have a terrible system that is in need of drastic reform
Self defense with a gun is not a guaranteed right under the second amendment. It doesn’t say you have a right to carry a gun. The term “arms” has always had limitations as has the ability to carry a gun. The second amendment is not unlimited.
The justices you mention are anti second amendment, because they won’t allow guns into supreme court sessions.
Keep and bear arms
It’s literally right there bro
bear /bâr/
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To carry (something) on one’s person from one place to another. “bore the suitcase to the station."
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To move from one place to another while containing or supporting (something); convey or transport: “a train bearing grain.”
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To cause to move by or with steady pressure; push. “a boat borne along by the current.”
You can bear a pitchfork. That’s an arm
If you want to bear a gun you need insurance. Not happy? Just bear a pitchfork.
Want to bear a nuclear warhead? Not available to the general population in the us yet. Is this infringing your rights? The constitution says you can bear arms, not that you should be allowed to bear whatever arms you want.
-
If the Constitution currently expresses a stronger, more irrevocable right to own firearms than to operate a motor vehicle, then it very much has its priorities out of whack, considering which one of those is more likely to be urgently needed by the populace. It needs to be changed. There’s a reason they’re called “Amendments”.
Sorry, but you have no right to cars as there were none in 1776, horse and buggy only.
The Constitution is out of whack. But there is no express right to automobile travel contained therein; there is, however, an express right to firearm possession.
Formally amending the Constitutional is not possible given current political realities. The formal amendment process requires too high of a threshold than could ever be met in 2024
The easier way to amend the Constitution is through the informal process known as “stacking the Supreme Court with people who agree with your desired outcomes.” Republicans are very good at this.
Is it firearm, or just arm?
Here’s the problem…
We can require automobile insurance because driving a car isn’t a right.
Now, owning a gun is a right, and you could argue that wearing or carrying the gun is not, but then you have to go back to New York vs Bruen:
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/597/20-843/
New York used to require special permission to wear or carry a gun. You had to provide special justification for your need to carry and “because I don’t feel safe” or “I want to defend myself” wasn’t good enough.
Supreme Court ruled:
“We know of no other constitutional right that an individual may exercise only after demonstrating to government officers some special need. That is not how the First Amendment works when it comes to unpopular speech or the free exercise of religion. It is not how the Sixth Amendment works when it comes to a defendant’s right to confront the witnesses against him. And it is not how the Second Amendment works when it comes to public carry for self-defense.”
Given that, I can’t imagine they would hold an insurance requirement to be constitutional.
Should Alex Jones be forced to have liability insurance before spouting off conspiracy theories on InfoWars? Yeah, probably. But that’s not the way the first amendment works either.
Ahhh, the old “let’s make something a right that only the rich can afford.” For all the “eat the rich” rhetoric here, there seems to be a lot of desire to increase the class divide even more by limiting rights to how much money you have.
It’s already very difficult to nearly impossible to obtain a purchase and carry permit in the state since Maryland is “May issue” state and NOT a “Shall issue” state. This means you can be denied a permit at the whim of local law enforcement unless you have an “in” with whoever is in charge. This is purely performative theater to buy votes.
And the two groups that really should have liability insurance - drug gangs and law enforcement - will be completely unaffected by this requirement.
Just don’t bring your gun to your favorite walmart?..
You don’t have to bring the fucking thing around with you everywhere
You were never a boy scout were you? Ever heard of being prepared? Maybe the phrase “I’d rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it”? Bet the people in the Walmart shooting in Texas a few years ago wish they would have taken their gun into the Walmart.
“Being prepared” is running away. 100% of the time.
Those “good guys w/ a guy” stories are legit almost always an off-duty cop who knows how to handle the situation (and the gun)
You dweeb come-and-take-its don’t need it at a Walmart
almost always
Can you run 1200fps?
So your advice to people in an active shooter situation is to always run? Not seek cover? Not stay low and observe the situation? Just run 100% of the time? I pray you don’t take your own advice.
Honest lol
It’s definitely odd seeing the crowd cheering for regulatory capture, that’s certain. Doubly infuriating because this kind of legislation will not solve problems, it’s virtue signaling to anti-gun donors and voters, that just pisses off everyone who has to live with it. How does insurance solve harm? It doesn’t, and I’d argue this is legally untested enough that a carrier can likely find ways to get out from paying.
There’s much better areas to start unraveling this issue, but they’re hard and don’t make quick headlines for clout:
- Expand the denied persons categories, including domestic violence, including cops
- Actually enforce sentencing for gun charges instead of pleading out, so ‘repeat offender’ laws actually work as designed
- Focus funding and diversion efforts at gang members who commit violence in communities, instead of broad, cosmetic centric bans
- Stop fetishizing guns as ‘manly’ or ‘powerful’ instead of just the deadly tools they are. Society shares blame here, but gun marketing absolutely took that an RAN with it
Focus funding and diversion efforts at gang members who commit violence in communities…
There it is lmao. Like gangs are the problem.
This isn’t the “racist found, we can dismiss everything said fellas” dog whistle you think it is.
Targeted programs that focus on individuals do exist, and are working. A small number of individuals commit an outsize percentage of the gun violence, so focusing on those people with non-policing efforts can have a large effect.
“It’s the black peoples fault”.
Half the American women murdered in their last decade were killed by their partner, but there’s no “funding and diversion efforts” for white guys who can’t control their emotions.
MD is Shall Issue now, thanks to Bruen. Still very hard to obtain a permit, as you require 16 hours of instruction, passing a live-fire exam, and paying about $200 in fees (on top of the $400 class).
That doesn’t sound that hard.
Well when all the classes are only offered during the week (or charge more for weekend classes), taking two days off work and spending a whole paycheck just on a permit is rather difficult.
Sir, that is unlicensed speech. You’ll need to take 16 hours of a $400 class and pay a $200 fee for a license to speak that way.
It should be a required safety test like with driver’s licenses, a reasonable compromise that you can also add immediate failure states to and doesn’t add an undue time and cost burden to people who aren’t dumbasses, unlike a class.
Get a child safety question wrong?
Fail.
Say you have the right to shoot a fleeing burglar in the back?
Also fail.
you don’t have the right to shoot a burglar in the front. loss of property isn’t an excusable reason to shoot someone. fear of bodily harm or death for you or someone else is.
loss of property isn’t an excusable reason to shoot someone.
Varies greatly depending on what state you live in. Texas, being the worst state for almost everything, doesn’t even require it to be your property. You can, in fact, defend your neighbors property with deadly force. You can also shoot them in the back if it’s nighttime.
TIL
Jeez, it sure would be awkward for your argument if a home invasion carried an inherent threat, which is why most robberies occur when no one is home to be threatened.
jeez it sure would be awkward if your argument made any sense. let me put it in caps for you. INHERENT THREAT.
But after that you can use that speech to kill a room full of children or a fleeing partner right?
I’m just going to come out and say it: Fuck your gun “rights”. I absolutely support it being taken away from you. It’s just as immoral as the right to own slaves was.
You’re hiding behind the word “right” because you know the only way to defend permissive gun laws is pretending that domestic abusers having poorly secured AR-15s is up there with “bodily autonomy” or “freedom of beliefs”.
Would you be playing your little “only bad guys take away rights” games if people had the “right” to help themselves to your daughters body? To kill you on a whim because of your skin color?
After all, anything you call a “right” is inherently good and ethical and to be preserved at all costs.
But after that you can use that speech to kill a room full of children or a fleeing partner right?
Oh shit they made school shootings legal if you have a permit? Missed that update.
right" to help themselves to your daughters body? To kill you on a whim because of your skin color?
Your rights end where another’s begin, you are not entitled to another’s body or life, you are however entitled to the tools with which to defend yourself if someone does try to violate your rights to your body or life. In your scenario, or should I say “currently,” I actually have the right to shoot the rapist or racist murderer.
Oh shit they made school shootings legal if you have a permit? Missed that update
They may as well given the disgustingly low bar you set for gun owners.
The laws the pro-gun community holds up as ideal couldn’t prevent the sale of a gun to a teenager with the nickname “school shooter” and a history of animal abuse, death and rape threats, days before he did a school shooting.
If you’re going to staunchly oppose gun control, why not just come out and say that you support selling semi-automatic weapons to far-right extremists, deeply disturbed men in the throes of psychosis, people who hit their partners and people who can’t secure their firearms from children?
Your rights end where another’s begin, you are not entitled to another’s body or life
I think you mean that other people’s rights end where yours begin.
After all, you have no problem bankrolling the gun-lobby who in turn fund the Republicans that openly campaign on a platform of taking away the rights of women and minorities.
Does a child have a right to safety and education? Only at the discretion of whatever insane fuckstick you’ve armed today because your guns are more important that someone else’s children.
I actually have the right to shoot the rapist or racist murderer.
And those rapists and murderers have the right to own guns because you insisted on it. Should we look at their statistics to see how that works out for everyone?
Oh what a shocking plot twist, it works out great for your as you sit there delivering on fuck all of your promises and it works out great for the rapists and racists.
Your right come at the expense of others and you’re not even good at hiding it.
They may as well given the disgustingly low bar you set for gun owners.
The laws the pro-gun community holds up as ideal couldn’t prevent the sale of a gun to a teenager with the nickname “school shooter” and a history of animal abuse, death and rape threats, days before he did a school shooting.
Translation: “I don’t know a damn thing about how to buy a gun in the US and I’m probably british.”
I think you mean that other people’s rights end where yours begin.
If you’re having difficulty parsing the statement it means that you don’t have the right to deprive another of their rights. I know it can be confusing for people like you who don’t like rights, so I understand.
After all, you have no problem bankrolling the gun-lobby
Well find me a gun company that …isn’t a gun company? I guess? What are your standards here lmao? Gotta buy them from the people who sell em, you ever buy weed in the US pre-'10? If yes, you feel bad about supporting the Sinaloa Cartel Lobby? Know what? I blame you, they wouldn’t have to lobby if people weren’t always trying to ban them.
Does a child have a right to safety and education?
Yes.
Only at the discretion of whatever insane fuckstick you’ve armed today because your guns are more important that someone else’s children.
Oh shit they made school shootings legal if you have a permit? Missed that update
And those rapists and murderers have the right to own guns because you insisted on it.
Well, not if they are a prohibited purchaser. And I’d rather their victims be able to have them too than just get raped and murdered at knifepoint instead. “You can run from knife,” ahh shaddup you better be fast then with that ableist take, and don’t try to pretend you weren’t about to type that shit either y’all are too predictable.
Should we look at their statistics to see how that works out for everyone?
Yes. According to John Lott, Gary Kleck, and the CDC, the estimate for defensive gun use in the 90s was somewhere between 500,000 and 3,000,000 times per year. The study in question was survey based, and included “defensive display,” which is a defense in which simply making the attacker aware of the presence of a firearm is enough to scare them off. Due to this, and the wide gap between the high/low end, the veracity of this study has been debated. However, according to a recent Harvard study done to discredit that “myth of the good guy with a gun,” they say a “more realistic estimate” of defensive gun use which does NOT include defensive display and is based solely off verifiable police reports is 100,000 per year.
Well, that takes care of the DGU, what about the deaths? Surely more than 100k/yr! Let’s see here, our murder rate yearly according to the FBI is about 15,000/yr.… Hol’ up, 15,000 homicides/yr? Shit, that is MUCH less than 100,000 dgu/yr. Well alright alright I know what’ll get those self defenders! The total gun death rate including homicides, suicides, and accidents! Surely there’s 1,000,000/yr! In 2021, there were a total of 48,830 firearm deaths. Hmm well shit. Turns out that doesn’t do it either, since 48,830<100,000. Damn, I guess guns are used in defense more than deaths. Who’da thunk it?
Oh what a shocking plot twist, it works out great for your as you sit there delivering on fuck all of your promises and it works out great for the rapists and racists.
I’ll twist your twister with the 100,000 people it DID work out great for every year, that’s 51,170 more twists! Get twisted on, go twist yourself.
Your right come at the expense of others
Your Mama comes at the expense of others, and it isn’t even that expensive.
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“allows you to run your mouth like a rabid retarded monkey trying to hump a door knob into submission.”
Attacking other users with (admittedly) highly creative ableist slurs is not allowed. Keep it civil.
Oh damn you have to show basic competence with a deadly weapon before you’re allowed to take it home and cuddle it? What an authoritarian hellscape.
It’s already very difficult to nearly impossible to obtain a purchase and carry permit in the state since Maryland is “May issue” state and NOT a “Shall issue” state.
You almost make it sound like this is a bad thing?
If “performative theatre” upsets you, then the pro-gun side is not for you.
They crow about “keeping their family safe” but droves of children are blowing their brains out with their dads guns or dying screaming on their classroom floor.
They promise all the gun violence will be worth it because they’ll keep us safe from tyranny but they enthusiastically vote for authoritarian, far-right candidates running on a platform of “we will take away the rights of women and minorities”.
They promise they’re “responsible gun owners”, then staunchly oppose any measure that makes that responsibility a requirement, not a completely voluntary pinkie promise.
I see what they want to do: no sane insurance company will provide such contracts unless they either:
- make the customers pay exorbitant prices
- require background checks and do the control themselves
Any of those will of course disincentivize people from owning guns, which is a good thing, but it’s crazy that a state has to offload these controls to a private company because there is no political willingness to do it in the right way.
This solves nothing, except for the rich getting the sole prerogative to guns.
Personal liability insurance typically costs around $8 to $10 a year for every $100,000 in coverage https://www.policygenius.com/homeowners-insurance/what-is-personal-liability-insurance
Even if this source is off by a factor of 10, what person can purchase a $400+ firearm but can’t afford the same in yearly insurance?
Is that a fixed range, or will the cost just go up for the folk that some corporation thinks shouldn’t carry a gun?
The government should just do it’s fucking job and provide the insurance and background check. Its a bad move to relegate this to private parties. Atleast with the government the people can vote who is in power.
So you guys don’t have universal healthcare but it makes sense for the taxpayers to subsidise insurance and background checks so everyone can carry a gun and be happy, and sobthe the poor are not left out from this inalienable right that is carrying a gun in public like in the western movies?
It’s okay, Billy McFucksHisSister was kinda outgunned by “the gubmint’s” F-35s already I don’t think his walmart glock was anything the rich ever feared.
I’d to ask what should then we do in case of a dictatorship, for example? Just lay down and fear the F-35s?
Yes, even if everyone has a wallmat glock we’d outgunned by a mile by let’s say the military, but also you can’t just bomb and kill the shit out of your labor and infrastructure — I mean, you can, also you can bomb and kill enough to get them to submit, but that is just not something you can just keep doing indefinetly. It is also very hard to maintain a economy going with a big insurrection going and there is were guns bring a point, they give you at least a figthing chance, way better than nothing.
I’d also like to point out the ad hominem of calling the hypotetical gun owner a “McFucksHisSister” it brings nothing of value to the conversation.
I also do not belive carrying a gun around is something needed -by almost anyone- but ownership is important.
Also important to note is that the military is not some faceless automaton that does whatever they’re told. It’s very hard to justify killing the family and townspeople and neighbours of the people that you send to commit the killing. If we get to a state where it isn’t hard, we’re already lost as a people.
I’d like to agree with you, but given the experiences and horrors carried out by the military in my country (not the USA) I just can’t. I guess I agree with your last sentence, and I really hope you guys (whoever is reading) do better than us.
Don’t know about the US, but in most places the military wouldn’t send you tonserve or even less fight to, say, Shithole, Alabama if you are from there. Of course you wouldn’t shoot your uncle or brother. They figured this out centuries ago, before firearms.
Cope. Seethe.
No arguments: you cope.
what is the right way? carrying was almost impossible in MD before the Supreme Court ruling.
They are using the anti-abortion strategy of finding a fairly strong argument and trying to maximize the ability of blocking something based on it. This will likely also fail like most of those attempts did.
Something needs to be done but wow this feels like the worst way to go.
Oh you mean the way that let’s the monied ruling class stay armed while all the rest of us lowly poors can’t be. Surely that genius plan won’t ever backfire.
Surely that genius plan won’t ever backfire.
And the current gun laws haven’t backfired? The country is a fucking mess and none of the pro-gun promises have come true.
Authoritarians have never been more powerful and the guns have done nothing to stop them. The most effective way to keep your family safe is to just move to a wealthy country that doesn’t routinely arm domestic abusers, extremists and the deeply mentally ill with the weapons they need to quickly and efficiently kill anyone they want.
You’re not a champion of peoples rights, you’re a simp for the gun lobby with delusions of grandeur.
There’s a difference between bureaucratic bullshittery and willfully making things worse for one specific class.
And what is that difference?
Money generally.
So, let me see if I’ve got this right.
Maryland wants to have a privately-enforced tax on the exercise of a constitutional right. Do I have that more or less correct? Perhaps you could also have a requirement that all religious congregations or any kind have a $1B policy in case there is sexual misconduct by a member of the congregation?
A tax that disproportionally affects poor people. We wouldn’t want those people having guns, now would we?
I genuinely would. I believe that all people (that aren’t prohibited due to prior illegal violent actions) should be able to exercise their rights, if that is their choice. I don’t think people should be required to own firearms, any more than I think that anyone should be required to vote. But I don’t think that the state should be trying to prevent either. And it really pisses me off that gun owners in general want to close off exercise of rights to the “wrong” people, esp. non-white people, LGBTQ+ people, and anyone that’s to the political left of Benitto Mussolini.
Not the congregation, but perhaps the clergy should carry insurance. Especially if they’re part of a church that has a history of sexual assault in their organization
I would suggest that you look into church sex abuse cases. It’s not always the clergy that’s committing abuse. Quite often it’s members, and the clergy is covering it up because of the priest-penitent privilege (edit: and to protect the reputation of the church; this has been true with the Mormon
cultchurch, JWs, Southern Baptist Convention members, and many, many other churches). (Which, BTW, only means that they their testimony can’t be used in an investigation or trial without the permission of the penitent. It does not legally bar them from alerting the police that abuse has occurred.)The confessional is basically old school therapy - it needs to be confidential, because the idea is that the priest can then influence things that people never want to see the light of day.
For example, a Catholic priest could say that the penance for their actions is to turn themselves in, and they could take that opportunity to confront the person with the reality of what this is like for the victim.
You can argue that at some point, the future harm to others overrides that oath to the privacy of that action, but that’s a very complicated ethics question.
The priest could, in any situation, break that oath and be defrocked at worst… But they could also say “I’m here to redeem this person” or “I made an oath and I can’t break it”, and work them towards coming forward themselves. They could also bend it, and without revealing anything, approach and try to support the victim so they feel safe coming forward
The right answer is going to be nuanced and situational, and I’m sure many have failed ethically, but it’s not a simple question
If a penitent is unwilling to accept the consequences of their actions, then are they truly penitent? AA tells people that part of their journey to sobriety requires making amends for what they did; why is a child rapist being let off more easily than a drunk?
If I were clergy, I would tell a penitent that there was no forgiveness in this life or the next until they had confessed to police and pleaded guilty without a plea agreement. In my reading of the bible, this is not a conflict; James 2:18 says, “But someone will say, ‘You have faith, and I have works.’ Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”. Real faith, and real repentance, requires an outward manifestation, although the manifestation is not proof by itself of faith. So a penitent that is actually penitent–and thus ready to accept the forgiveness of their god–must be willing to accept the secular consequences of their actions.
That is a very good perspective. Thank you for the thoughtful and reasoned perspective. You’ve given me many things to consider
Yeah…about that
That is optional insurance, not mandated by a state law. You can already buy insurance (Edit: for firearms) to protect you in case of negligence, or prosecution for something you claim is self-defense.
Do I have that more or less correct?
Only if you believe it’s an individual right, which you can’t without ignoring half the amendment that creates it.
Well, yeah, actually I can, because of the history surrounding that text, and what it meant when it was written.
The part you are conveniently ignoring is the body of the constitution prior to the bill of rights that gives congress the power to raise an army, and to equip that army. If congress already has the power to raise an army/militia and provide arms for them, then why would you need an amendment saying that congress can’t pass laws to prevent itself from arming an army? (For your reference that is Article 1, Section 8: “The Congress shall have Power … To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years …To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions … To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress”
Moreover, when you look at the bill of rights, all of the rights are pertaining to individual people (or people and states, in the case of 10A). It’s pretty clear that the freedom of the press isn’t a collective right, but one that is an individual right.
Beyond that, you need to understand what they meant by militia; the militia was every able-bodied male below about 50 (not sure on the exact age cutoffs); in many cases they were legally obligated to provide their own arms (despite the constitution saying that the gov’t could pay for them), those arms were required to be militarily useful, and they were required to train both on their own and with other members of the militia.
Yawn. I’ve heard those arguments before and they’re all what I categorize as mental gymnastics.
Are we going to start with the police?
This would go to the supreme court who would rule that restricting the right to bear arms to someone’s financial status is unconstitutional or some shit.
Well tbf “no guns for poor people” is pretty classist.
My constitutional right to an AR 15 depends on my ability to pay $2,000 or whatever they cost. Not in my budget. The old bank account needs more freedoms it seems.
This is a joke, but seriously though - how is affordability an argument when guns also cost money?
Well it is. If you’re going to let everyone have guns, you shouldn’t restrict ownership based on who can afford insurance on it.
I don’t think any private citizen should be able to own guns anyway though.
I agree that individuals shouldn’t own guns.
I think the second amendment should always been about the right to have state organized militias. I think that is a fair thing to have to avoid tyranny. The convoluted mess of a legal argument that judges have stood up to justify everyone having guns is just insane to me. The ultra minority who have easy access to guns and shoot people up… every single week… is not worth the benefit of having 60% right side hearing loss by 40 like my gun loving friends in the midwest.
Have people in the Midwest never heard of hearing protection or something? I was raised in a rural area and did target and clay shooting a lot. I always wore hearing protection, and my ears work just fine now.
I most definitely agree with your ideas on state militias, especially in more populated areas. I think at least hunting rifles and shotguns should be available to people living in rural areas.
A good point in on your ears…but here’s my counterpoint: protecting yourself is stoopid.
You want gun nuts to wear earplugs at the range, can’t even get them to wear a damn cloth over their face in an ER waiting room.
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Ah yes. America. The only country in the world where it’s expected that everyone has a gun and can carry it every where they go.
Not the only one, somalia too.
And instead of complaining for the lack of healthcare, they cry because they are going to tax your Colt and you are not allowed to take it to the supermarket anymore.
fr
Idk I need to get insurance for my car because it might hurt someone. I think this makes sense and is a good step. You have a right to own guns but no one said it would be cheap.
If you are poor buying a gun should not be your priority anyways. why do poor people need guns? It’s not like they are going out hunting for their food still.
It’s obvious you’ve never lived in the hood lol. Poor income areas usually have the highest crime and often little to no police presence.
I’ve lived in the hood. BRANDISHING which is what this law for, would have you shot dead. Get the fuck outta here.
Does it say I need insurance to own a shotgun, that is kept in my home? Because thats what I’d be using if I lived in the hood and felt afraid in my home
Many people who conceal carry and actually train with their firearms can draw and fire in about 1.5 seconds. That is fast enough that you won’t be shot dead in a lot of situations.
Brandishing is dumb. If someone is going to draw their firearm, it should only ever be in a life or death situation, and they should be justified in using it immediately.
Open carry is also just a bad idea everywhere, not just the hood.
1.5 seconds or not, now everyone knows you own a gun. A gun will never improve a situation.
You are right that guns rarely improve a situation, but sometimes we have to deal with the fact that we live in a cruel world where a lot of people carry guns and are desperate enough to use them on people.
Personally, if I was being robbed and was conceal carrying, I would do everything I could to not escalate the situation. I would just slowly give them my stuff. But if I am trapped in a building with a mass shooter or something, I would rather try to defend my family and myself rather than just waiting to be executed.
I respect your viewpoint on it, though.
I don’t believe, and also hope for your own sake, that a situation never arises where you need one. You have every right to be able to do so. In fact, this bill only makes it so in the event something goes wrong; insurance has got you covered.
Brandishing and carrying are not the same thing.
Open carrying in the hood is a great way to get shot. Being open about your weapons in the hood is a great way to get robbed.
Semantics.
If it came to you having to use your weapon in the first place, then you’re already dead. This bill is a good first step in curbing our rampant gun issues.
This law would also affect concealed carry no?
Lol reread the article, this is for carrying, brandishing is what is known as a “criminal offense” and is “not covered by such liability insurance.” You want “insurance” against your literal crimes get a lawyer on retainer, but I know you’re just conflating carrying concealed, laugably, or open, with brandishing, which by all definitions involved particularly the legal (i.e important) ones, they are not the same thing.
My comment was directed at the person claiming having a gun in the hood is a necessity and that this bill stops them from that.
I said brandishing because if you have a gun in the hood, whether or not its tucked in your shorts, holstered and concealed as is legal, or hanging from your balls out in the open, its a bad fucking idea.
My comment was directed at the person claiming having a gun in the hood is a necessity and that this bill stops them from that.
Right, but you were the only person in the entire thread to mention brandishing, the comment you replied to is in relation to carrying, open or concealed, as is the article, and the law itself that we’re discussing, keep up buddy. Also:
I’ve lived in the hood. BRANDISHING which is what this law for, would have you shot dead. Get the fuck outta here.
Your comment was directed at him, but about this law, which is what I’m correcting you on.
The hood being underpoliced and over-crimed necessitates the occasional defense of oneself, and the carrying required to do so. You can feel whatever way you want to about that, but sometimes it does have to happen, and does happen, regularly.
He definitely edited his comment though that is besides the point. I most certainly used the term brandishing to illicit this exact response, and I’d say its right. It does not matter whether or not its open carried, concealed, or brandished. Id wager you lots of money that “any time its necessitated to resort to gun violence in the hood” that the person (who “won”) eventually lived a short life.
I never said anything about brandishing. I was responding to the above comment saying poor people don’t need to buy a gun.
No one needs a gun, but another barrier to entry is a plus in my book.
Idk I lived in Baltimore for a while. I definitely felt more safe when guns weren’t around
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If you are poor buying a gun should not be your priority anyways. why do poor people need guns? It’s not like they are going out hunting for their food still.
YEAH! Stupid fucking poors, if your neighborhood is so dangerous just get a better job and move to a gated community like the one RagingRobot here lives in! You’re too poor and stupid to handle protecting yourself anyway and since you’re so poor who cares if you die?
Buying a gun only makes your neighborhood more dangerous
@RagingRobot @ArcaneSlime How?
Well it makes it much more likely that someone will be shot for one thing lol. The more guns in the neighborhood the more likely someone is getting shot or a child gets a hold of it by mistake. All kinds of stuff can happen and just introducing a gun to the situation statistically increases the chance someone gets hurt.
@RagingRobot i would prefer a working-class based self-armed force and I will be joining it for revolution. Giving up weapon only makes you unsafe.
Send us your address, all us lemmy users can chip in and and gift you a big big ass weapon for your 14th birthday next year
Only weak men need weapons.
@RagingRobot Then who is gonna protect you? Police?
Protect me from who? I have never been in a situation where I need to pull a gun on someone and I never will be. If someone wants to rob me they can I have insurance. They would really have no reason to want to kill me. I’m not anyone’s enemy.
What are you so scared of?
Great, so if someone tries to kill me I should just let them do it for a marginal “increase” in “neighborhood safety” (not my safety of course after I’m murdered.) That makes sense.
What shitty thing did you do to someone that you think they want to kill you?
What shitty thing did Emitt Till do that made people want to kill him? What shitty thing did Harvey Milk do to make people want to kill him? JFK? MLK?
What shitty thing did you do today? Victim blame.
JFK was surrounded by people with guns and it didn’t help him one bit though. I wasn’t blaming anyone.
I was questioning why you are so scared?
If guns make neighbourhoods safer, why isn’t America the safest country in the world by a huge margin?
Feel free to stay in the violence free paradise that you’ve found, but don’t tell anyone where this mythical utopia is or they’ll surely invade.
Don’t worry, it’s not a secret. It’s called “any other wealthy country with gun control (which is basically all of them)”.
Sure, it’s not exactly violence free but the chances of your child being mutilated beyond recognition by a former “responsible gun owner” are close to zero.
Even in the poorest communities, “gunshots or fireworks” just isn’t a thing. Even for the most despised minority groups, “this confrontation could escalate to murder before anyone could intervene” isn’t a thing.
It’s way better.
Oh word y’all don’t have stabbings or rapes or anything in any other country at all? News to me.
Sure, it’s not exactly violence free
Ah gotcha, that’s what I thought. Call me when it is.
That didn’t take much prodding did it? You’ve just let slip your contempt for a lower crime rate, fewer murders and no monthly extremist killing as many minorities or children as they can.
I guess all your talk about criminals, rape, self defense and protecting minorities was just bullshit rhetoric after all.
If there’s no gun sales in it, you openly don’t care.
Nobody should be carrying as a routine.
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Is your gun keeping a third of your country at bay?
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If they see you with a firearm, it will be all these excuse they need.
Don’t fall for the pro-gun bullshit. Equal access to firearms means nothing because violence always favors the biggest asshole.
Don’t tell transwomen how to live their lives. Whatever you are, you do not live up to your username.
Whiteknighting without adding anything? Should transwomen be allowed to say anything, and no one can disagree?
Spare me the feigned alliance. You’re rushing to defend the gun lobby, not the trans community.
LoL, is that all you’ve got left? You think conservatives ever encourage armed transpersons? After all I said to you, the courtesy I extended, you think it was all just bad faith? I wasn’t even rude. You’re as dense as any conservative. Read my history.
What do you think John Brown would say to you? He was an agitator.
Why would they care? They’re making millions of dollars off “armed leftists” who aren’t the slightest threat to them.
They put $16 million of those profits each year into the pockets of the most far-right Republicans running.
The far-right shitheads you’re enabling go on monthly killing sprees targeting minorities. Meanwhile, whats your Nazi body count? Zero?
Do you need some names and addresses? I can hook you up. I’m talking swastika tattoo, mask off, proud boys.
Face it, everything you’re doing is working out great for fascists. You couldn’t have been more help if you joined them.
But it’s all worth it right, because now the trans community is… oh, much less safe and accepted than they would be in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the UK and most of Europe.
So long as there are actual Nazis around, there exists a strong argument for it.
Nazis that have all the guns they could ever want and routinely go on killing sprees with them.
So what exactly is the argument? That maybe one day, the gun laws that armed Nazis might disarm Nazis, even though they’he completely failed to for their last 5 years?
Stop falling for bullshit gun-lobby marketing.
Fine, you can choose to be utterly helpless when the nazis break down your door, and you will then go wherever they tell you. But at that point you can feel free to stop pretending you own the high road. And stop telling those of us who would fight back effectively that we have no such right.
The gun lobby absolutely does not market to people like me. Gun laws will never disarm nazis, only the minorites they wish to oppress.
This law isn’t about having guns in your house. It’s about having guns at the movie theater.
Thanks for sharing your little hero fantasy with us but you and your guns have done absolutely fuck all to shield anyone from Nazis.
But at that point you can feel free to stop pretending you own the high road
Sounds like the day you’ve lost the high road, not me. You were going to shoot all the Nazis dead with your cool guns remember? Now they’re marching people off to camps.
It’s such a difficult line of bullshit to work with isn’t it? You need to proclaim the Nazis are coming, and that only guns can stop them, but they can’t stop you with their guns, that they purchased from the same store, under the same gun-lobby authored laws.
And stop telling those of us who would fight back effectively that we have no such right.
Oh you’re going to “fight back effectively” are you? So share with us all what your skills are. We don’t know for certain they include “able to safely possess a competently use a firearm” because they’re pro-gun community insist that shouldn’t be a requirement.
Tell us all about the soldier these dead kids have bought us. Do you have any skills besides “gun”? Any military training? Can you set up a secure communication network? Are you able to administer basic first aid? Can you fly a drone? Fuck, tell us what you weigh.
Convince us that the fattest, shittest, most entitled army the world has ever seen is going to keep us safe from the people they almost certainly voted for.
It’s so strange that you think armed leftists have anything in common with your fairly accurate image of right wing chuds.
It is not the job of armed leftists to shield you from nazis. That job is for you and your mighty pens. Great job on that, by the way.
None of us have ever claimed to be heroes who are gonna kill all the nazis with our big bad guns. Self defense is not an offensive act. There are no nazis currently breaking in my door to drag me away. Do you expect me to go out seeking murder? Hell no. Now is the time to dismantle their propaganda networks, prosecute their leaders, bankrupt those who fund them, raise the minimum wage, establish single payer healthcare, safeguard human rights, separate church and state, and once and for all make bigotry and hate speech utterly illegal. We had best get on that.
No armed leftist has ever advocated for untrained irresponsible gun ownership.
You talk as if you think I expect to survive a Nazi coup. That world is not worth living in. Such a battle may very well be hopeless, but if your politicians fail to prevent it, it must be fought. No, I have no unprovable claims of competency for you to ridicule. I have nothing to prove. I’m not a badass. I expect to ensure that I do not go where they tell me. Rather the opposite.
Despite being a socialist, I have never voted for anyone except Democrats since 2000. You’re welcome.
I see you still have offered no viable solutions. I hope your pen is sharp.
It’s so strange that you think armed leftists have anything in common with your fairly accurate image of right wing chuds
Sure they do – their opinions came out of the same sleazy boardrooms dedicated to maximising profits. They just replaced the conservative shit like “god” and “nuclear family” with “minorities” and you lapped it up just as eagerly.
It is not the job of armed leftists to shield you from nazis. That job is for you and your mighty pens. Great job on that, by the way.
Good to hear you admitting you’re going to do fuck all except push hollow rhetoric.
But hey if you want me and my pen to stop the Nazis firing semi-automatic rifles into crowds of innocent people, we’re happy to write up the new gun laws to prevent it.
At the very least, you could stop bankrolling the pro-gun lobby and their army of lawyers. Maybe you could skip the middleman and just donate $16 million a year directly to Republicans?
None of us have ever claimed to be heroes who are gonna kill all the Nazis with our big bad guns. Self defense is not an offensive act.
A comment that doesn’t even hold true in this single comment section, let alone the rolling plains of AstroTurf that “leftist gun owners” call home.
No armed leftist has ever advocated for untrained irresponsible gun ownership.
I started to reply to this but then I realized just how fucking slimey it is. You’ve carefully positioned yourself to claim “even though we demand that training and responsibility remain entirely optional, a true leftist advocates gun safety”.
Presumably by tutting at people on the internet.
Nobody should be carrying.
Guns are practical tools in rural areas. In town though? Nah.
When they say “our democracy is at stake,” they don’t mean all Americans. They mean them and their friends’.
And how many guns have you donated to the homeless? You’re absolutely fine with gun ownership having a cost, as long as you can afford it.
Things have a cost, there’s the materials, and unless you are a proponent of slave labor someone had to make the thing. This applies to literally everything. No shit “EvErYtHiNg IsN’t FrEe,” but everything can be donated if you so choose. The problem with donating guns to the homeless though is it’s technically illegal since you do not know if they can legally possess firearms, they may be a felon or “an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance? Warning: The use or possession of marijuana remains unlawful under Federal law regardless of whether it has been legalized or decriminalized for medicinal or recreational purposes in the state where you reside.” (ATF Form 4473 question 21f.) Or question 21g for that matter, “Have you ever been adjudicated as a mental defective OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution?” Or 21h “Have you ever been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions?” Or 21j “Have you ever been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence, or are you or have you ever been a member of the military and been convicted of a crime that included, as an element, the use of force against a person as identified in the instructions?”
So what is your tantrum about? The things have a cost that is now higher.
I genuinely can’t figure out what you were expecting with that argument. Do you think guns are sold for the cost of materials and labor?
Tantrum? Lmao cute.
Yes, and higher cost = harder for poors.
This isn’t rocket surgery my dude. Keep pretending you’re an idiot idgaf, you know and I know you know.
You made it clear “the poors” were nothing but a prop when you rushed to justify a for-profit firearms industry.
Lmao you expect things to be handed out for free, then start to donating or advocate for firearms to be provided to all by the government. However evidentially you expect an industry to continue on it’s own without the money with which to sustain itself and grow, well wish in one hand and shit in the other see which fills up first.
You champion that government rifle providing program and I’ll be your first backer, but “things cost money” isn’t the gotcha you think it is.
What, do you think I’m rich? I’m poor as fuck, I had to save up to buy a gun, like most Americans I live paycheck to paycheck, adding ~$50 a month for some horse shit is definitely more of a problem financially than saving $20 a paycheck for a year on top of the monthly ~$50 I’d be required and you can stop pretending that isn’t the case anytime, I live it, you can’t fool me.
Isn’t it funny how when you complain about a cost being too high, it isn’t “expecting things to be handed out for free” but if I suggest it, the standards change?
But you want to know some more things that aren’t free? Sewing up bullet holes. Cleaning children’s blood and brains from their classroom floor. Processing the 4 women who are murdered by their partners in America each day. Locking down a mall because someone who couldn’t get their dick sucked bought an AR-15.
Maybe its time for the fucking gun owners to pay.
Do we really need to help insurance companies make more money? Are thier stocks low?
Another right-wing bill that gives the rich power over poor, disguised as left-wing bill. All politicians in power are rich, which is why they always push for right-wing politics, democrat or republican, always end up against the working class. There is a good video about this.
