• Valmond@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    7
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    4 hours ago

    Just have to buy 1100 panels 😋 but then the price is 0.055€/watt …

    I Want one, but only one or a couple, to put on my balcony…

    • ikidd@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      3
      ·
      3 hours ago

      These are topcon modules only. Considering a 400W panel will have about 72 modules in it, that’s only about 15 panels worth. Of course, then you have to actually build the panel and connect the modules, put it behind glass inside a frame, then put in a bypass diode and leads for connection. So an actual panel ends up being about 5-10X the cost of the modules per W.

  • JustEnoughDucks@feddit.nl
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    42
    ·
    edit-2
    7 hours ago

    Here in Belgium there used to be big government subsidies for solar panels 5-10 ago.

    Now the same wattage battery + solar setup without any government subsidies is a good chunk cheaper than that time with the large subsidies.

    Pretty cool and shows the power of government renewables subsidies. A huge percentage of houses in Belgium have solar panels now.(and electricity still costs 0.30€/kWh average because of fossil fuel energy lobbies)

    Now that there is a local industry around it, most renovations and almost all new builds include them.

  • Apathy@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    1
    ·
    3 hours ago

    Assuming these prices are ideal for a solar grid, which EU country(s) would have the highest chance of shifting towards solar; I wonder

  • wewbull@feddit.uk
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    22
    arrow-down
    4
    ·
    7 hours ago

    $60k per MW or $210M for a nuclear reactors worth (3.5GW). Sure… the reactor will go 24/7 (between maintenance and refuelling down times, and will use less land (1.75km² Vs ~40km²) but at 1% of the cost, why are we still talking about nuclear.

    (I’m using the UKs Hinckley Point C power station as reference)

    • Benaaasaaas@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      18
      arrow-down
      6
      ·
      5 hours ago

      Because there are nights there are winters there are cloudy and rainy days, and there are no batteries capable of balancing all of these issues. Also when you account for those batteries the cost is going to shift a bit. So we need to invest in nuclear and renewables and batteries. So we can start getting rid of coal and gas plants.

      • GissaMittJobb@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        ·
        edit-2
        1 hour ago

        Also when you account for those batteries the cost is going to shift a bit.

        You better be bringing units if you’re going to be claiming this.

        Still less than half of the LCOE of nuclear when storage is added: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1475611/global-levelized-cost-of-energy-components-by-technology/

        Given that both solar and storage costs are trending downwards while nuclear is not, this basically kills any argument for nuclear in the future. It’s not viable on its face - renewables + storage is the definitive future.

      • Suzune@ani.social
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        10
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        5 hours ago

        But Germany has no space for nuclear waste. They haven’t been able to bury the last batch for over 30 years. And the one that they buried most recently began to leak radioactivity into ground water.

        And… why give Russia more military target opportunities?

        • elucubra@sopuli.xyz
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          6
          ·
          4 hours ago

          I’m not a rabid anti-nuclear, but there are somethings that are often left out of the pricing. One is the exorbitant price of storage of spent fuel although I seem to remember that there is some nuclear tech that can use nuclear waste as at least part of it’s fuel (Molten salt? Pebble? maybe an expert can chime in). There is also the human greed factor. Fukushima happened because they built the walls to the highest recorded tsunami in the area, to save on concrete. A lot of civil engineering projects have a 150% overprovision over the worst case calculations. Fukushima? just for the worst case recorded, moronic corporate greed. The human factor tends to be the biggest danger here.

          • Flatfire@lemmy.ca
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            ·
            4 hours ago

            Not an expert, but molten salt reactors are correct. MSRs are especially useful as breeder reactors, since they can actually reinvigorate older, spent fuel using more common isotopes. Thorium in particular is useful here. Waste has also been largely reduced with the better efficiency of modern reactors.

            Currently, Canada’s investing in a number of small modular reactors to improve power generation capacity without the need to establish entire new nuclear zones and helps take some of the stress off the aging CANDU reactors. These in particular take advantage of the spent fuel and thorium rather than the very expensive and hard to find Uranium more typically used. There’s been interest in these elsewhere too, but considering how little waste is produced by modern reactors, and the capacity for re-use, it feels pike a very good way to supplement additional wind and solar energy sources.

            • sugar_in_your_tea
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              2
              ·
              4 hours ago

              Idk, Finland has a much lower population density vs Germany. France is something like 1/2 the population density, but they also have >50 reactors, so surely Germany can find room for a few…

                • wewbull@feddit.uk
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  2
                  ·
                  3 hours ago
                  • Finland: 338,145 km² and 5.6 million people
                  • Germany: 357,596 km² and 82 million people

                  Where do you want to put your hazardous waste again?

                • sugar_in_your_tea
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  2
                  ·
                  4 hours ago

                  Yup, but population density should be what matters, because that implies how much usable space there is for waste disposal.

    • frezik@midwest.social
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      11
      ·
      edit-2
      6 hours ago

      I think there’s a contingent of people who think nuclear is really, really cool. And it is cool. Splitting atoms to make power is undeniably awesome. That doesn’t make it sensible, though, and they don’t separate those two thoughts in their mind. Their solution is to double down on talking points designed for use against Greenpeace in the 90s rather than absorbing new information that changes the landscape.

      And then there’s a second group that isn’t even trying to argue in good faith. They “support” nuclear knowing it won’t go anywhere because it keeps fossil fuels in place.

      • sugar_in_your_tea
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        4
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        edit-2
        4 hours ago

        What isn’t sensible about nuclear? For context, I’m coming from the US in an area with lots of empty space (i.e. tons of place to store radioactive waste) and without much in the way of hydro (I’m in Utah, a mountainous, desert climate). We get plenty of sun as well as plenty of snow. Nuclear should provide power at night and throughout the winter, and since ~89% of homes are heated with natural gas, we only need higher electricity production in the summer when it’s hot, which is precisely what solar is great for.

        So here’s my thought process:

        • nuclear for base load demand to cover nighttime power needs, as well as the small percentage of homes using electricity for heat
        • solar for summer spikes in energy usage for cooling
        • batteries for any excess solar/nuclear generation

        If we had a nuclear plant in my area, we could replace our coal plants, as well as some of our natural gas plants. If we go with solar, I don’t think we have great options for electricity storage throughout the winter.

        This is obviously different in the EU, but surely the nordic countries have similar problems as we do here, so why isn’t nuclear more prevalent there?

        • itslilith@lemmy.blahaj.zone
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          ·
          2 hours ago

          Because it makes no sense, environmentally or economically speaking. Nuclear is, as you said, base load. It can’t adjust for spikes in demand. So if there’s more energy in the grid than needed, it’s gonna be solar and wind that gets turned off to balance the grid. Investments in nuclear thus slow down the adoption of renewables.

          Solar is orders of magnitude cheaper to build, while nuclear is one of the most expensive ways to generate electricity, even discounting the waste storage, which gets delegated the the public.

          Battery technology has been making massive gains in scalability and cost in recent years. What we need is battery arrays to cover nighttime demand and spikes in production or demand, combined with a more adaptive industry that performs energy intensive tasks when it’s abundant. With countries that have large amounts of solar, it is already happening that during peak production, energy cost goes to zero (or even negative, as traded between utilities companies).

          About the heating: gas can not stay the main way to heat homes, it’s yet another fossil fuel. What we need is heat pumps, which can have an efficiency of >300% (1kWh electricity gets turned into 3kWh of heat, by taking ambient heat from outside). Combined with large, well-insulated warm-water reservoirs, you can heat up more water than you need to higher temperature during times of electricity oversupply, and have more than enough to last you the night, without even involving batteries. Warm water is an amazing energy storage medium. Batteries cover electricity demand as well as a backup in case you need uncharacteristically much water. This is a system that’s slowly getting adopted in Europe, and it’s great. Much cheaper, and 100% clean.

          • xthexder@l.sw0.com
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            3
            ·
            edit-2
            58 minutes ago

            You bring up heated water as a method of storage, and it reminds me of a neighborhood in Alberta, Canada that uses geothermal + solar heated water storage for 52 homes. They’ve been able to successfully heat the entire neighborhood with only solar over the winter in 2015-2016 and have gotten > 90% solar heating in other years.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_Landing_Solar_Community

            There’s a huge number of new storage technologies being developed, and the fact that some even work on a seasonal basis for long term storage is amazing.

            • itslilith@lemmy.blahaj.zone
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              40 minutes ago

              That’s pretty cool! Still seems to have some issues, but as the technology matures, that seems like a promising technology. I didn’t know seasonal warm water storage was a thing

      • Devorlon@lemmy.zip
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        6 hours ago

        I’m very much in the first camp and need to remind myself whenever I think about arriving due nuclear

    • alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      5
      arrow-down
      4
      ·
      edit-2
      5 hours ago

      A MW of solar averages out to about .2 MWh per hour. A MW of nuclear averages about .9 MWh per hour.

      But even so as the UK does it, nuclear power isn’t worth it. France and China are better examples since they both picked a few designs and mass produced them.

      China’s experience indicates you can mass produce nuclear relatively cheaply and quickly, having built 35 out of 57GW in the last decade, and another 88GW on the way, however it’s not nearly as quick to expand as solar, wind, and fossil fuels.

      • xthexder@l.sw0.com
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        ·
        edit-2
        53 minutes ago

        Maybe just use percentages instead of these weird units. 0.2 MHh per hour is just 0.2 MW, or 20%.

        It seems easier to say solar produces an average of 20% of it’s peak capacity.

      • 486@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        3
        ·
        6 hours ago

        MW/h

        There is MW which is a unit of power and then there is MWh which is a unit of energy, but what is MW/h supposed to mean?

        • alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          edit-2
          6 hours ago

          Maybe in the UK where each plant is basically unique instead of having improvements from all the previous iterations. In the US it’s around 93%. I don’t know how to search China or France’s numbers, but I suspect they’re similar or better.

  • Venicon@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    22
    ·
    8 hours ago

    Good news perhaps but I’m sure I won’t see any benefit in Scotland, still thousands to add solar panels.

    • frezik@midwest.social
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      22
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      8 hours ago

      Scotland has really good wind power, anyway. Between that, nuclear, and a few other renewable sources, you guys are down to 10% fossil fuel energy use. So don’t worry about solar.

    • brsrklf@jlai.lu
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      8
      ·
      7 hours ago

      You know, if you people wanna ditch the Kingdom and join the club, I don’t think it’s too late.

    • BananaTrifleViolin@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      4
      ·
      edit-2
      7 hours ago

      For electricity generation: Solar across the UK was about 5% in last year, while Wind was about 29% and Nuclear 13.9%, and hydro 1.3% - so 49.2% of electricity generation over the last 12 months was carbon neutral.

      That’s a huge success story - still a long way to go, particularly as that does not include Gas burned in homes, but the UK is moving in the right direction. And Scotland is a huge source of Wind & Hydro power for the whole country.

      So even if the barriers to solar in your home are still high, the grid is getting cleaner and cleaner every year. There are also community projects installing wind generators which you can join/invest in if you do want to try and get a slice of cleaner energy and solar is not realistic.

      Edit: Source on UK electricity generation: https://www.energydashboard.co.uk/historical Good data on UK electricity generation

    • Bosht@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      8
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      8 hours ago

      Yup. Average here in south US is 25k for a home system without battery backup.

    • Olap@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      5
      ·
      7 hours ago

      Installation the trouble. Roofing is expensive. Next time you have to redo the roof: then it’s time

  • hendrik@palaver.p3x.de
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    4
    ·
    edit-2
    4 hours ago

    Any good store that will sell me a super cheap and good set including inverter here in Germany? I mean they’re on Amazon for 250€, but maybe there is a better shop?