Honestly, I wonder how much of our disagreements do ultimately come down to moral philosophy. I see a lot of people making this comparison and I’d be happy to put aside the present political situation and step back to discuss a higher level of disagreement.
I am a consequentialist, and I would agree, in principle, that the correct decision in the trolley problem is to pull the lever. But that should always come with an extreme amount of disclaimers. There are no shortage of people throughout history who have made justifications for their actions on the basis of “the ends justify the means,” but often, they turned out to be wrong. To use an example, torture under the Bush administration was claimed to be justified on the basis of getting useful intelligence in order to save lives. But no such intelligence was ever extracted. Really, it was more motivated by revenge, or a desire to be the sort of cool antihero who does the stuff nobody else will that needs to be done, but “the ends justify the means” served as a rationalization. Another example like that (though perhaps more controversial) is the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
The problem with applying the trolley problem to real life is that we are mere human beings of flesh and blood. We have a whole host of cognitive biases that mislead us even when we have the best of intentions. If we give our minds a way to justify things that we know are bad, it gives it an out that allows us to rationalize the irrational and justify the unjustifiable.
There are two practices that are necessary to apply in order to counteract these biases. First, it is necessary to adopt a set of strong moral guidelines based on past experience and historical evidence. Second, it is necessary to regularly practice some form of introspection or meditation in order to better understand where your thoughts and feelings arise from, and how they flow through your mind. Said guidelines do not have to be rigorously adhered to 100% of the time, but they should be respected, and only deviated from after clear, careful consideration, understanding why the guideline exists and why deviation from them is almost always bad.
“Base” consequentialism, where you recognize that pulling the lever in the trolley problem is the correct decision, but simply accept that as a guiding principle, is a terrible moral philosophy, worse than deontology and possibly worse than having completely unexamined moral views. Some of the worst atrocities in history are the result of that sort of “ends justify the means” approach, detached from a set of moral guidelines and detached from humility and self-reflection. I would even say, speaking as a communist, that many of the bad things communists have done in history are a result of that kind of mentality.
There’s plenty more I could say on the topic but people always complain about my long posts so I’d better cut myself off there.
It’s so sad that that is the best available option.
People who don’t want to vote for Harris over Palestine, please watch this video: https://youtu.be/s7tWHJfhiyo
You’re basically doing exactly the right thing, and just not factoring in an obscure yet critical piece of context, which this video lays out. When that context is factored in, it totally flips the call on who to vote for, even though none of the values change.
Immigrants used to be on top rail, but after four years, they have been placed on both rails, just like the Palestinians. There is no guarantee that the groups placed on the top rail will not be shifted to the bottom rail as well in four years.
Voting for Democrats is always advertised as the lesser of two evils, but it sure seems like the lesser evil is just trying to kill the same groups the greater evil. If they want people to vote for them, the Democrats should start working to save and prevent people from being tied to trolley tracks.
Or at least lie about it.
I legit was thinking of the trolley scenario what I was doing laundry earlier today. Great minds think alike
I was going to make this, but put Palestine before the fork. And then put the person away from the lever refusing to participate when pulling the lever would move it to a track with nobody on it. Or pulling a different lever that does nothing (labeled Jill Stein).
Palestine is and will continue to get run over regardless who wins the presidency, so they aren’t exactly relevant to the choice. It’s not a real trolley problem because it’s not a trade for different people. It’s just “let the trolley run over Ukrainians, lgbtq+ people, minorities, and immigrants” or… don’t. And then refusing to touch the lever because it somehow makes you “love genocide” to have anything to do with the trolley, even if to mitigate the damage.
Please also put someone on the trolley with control over the brake and label them: Israeli leaders, military, and citizens. Since the trolley doesn’t actually need to go anywhere, regardless of whether the US track-switching money/arms are sent.
Please do, I’d love to be able to just slap that image down whenever “bUt tHe gEnOcIdE!” comes up around here.
(but worse)
This amounts to genocide denial.
Trump loves money. One of the best ways best way for him to get more money once in power is increasing our military spending on Israel aid, that’s the “but worse” part. In what world do you think he’d do the inverse of maintaining his power? There’s a reason the military industrial complex wants him in power
You live in a completely sealed off palace in your own mind. Democrats have been tripping over themselves to send repeated aid packages. Israel is using ordinance faster than we can make it. You shouldn’t feel so comfortable just saying whatever the fuck makes sense to you when you’re trying to talk about reality. You should look at it.
The democrats are committing a genocide. “But worse” implies they aren’t already doing the worst crime against humanity that exists in our imagination. It is genocide denial.
(but worse)
This amounts to genocide denial.
This amounts to genocide denial.
It’s weird how easy it is to say something stupid.
As you can see I have drawn stink lines above your opinion therefore defeating you qed
I’m hoping once Harris takes office that she can improve the Isreal/Palestine situation. But I suspect for now she has to keep her cards close or she’ll lose some key support.
Politics has been an old-boys club for a long time. She probably has to tread carefully until she knows if she has a majority or not.
I actually wonder if she has a different stance on Israel but simply will not/cannot talk about it because she is also the VP and it’s a “bad look to go against the boss,” so to speak.
She’s a Democrat. She will follow whatever AIPAC says. It’s foolish to wish otherwise. The president is not a monarch and must pick a few key issues to make changes to. The rest is up to the legislature.
I appreciate the optimism but Harris being elected is far from a foregone conclusion. Far, far. Between tricks and the electoral college, it needs to be a blowout to win. And we’re not seeing a blowout so far. I am hopeful as hell, but not affording optimism.
I’m hoping the same thing. Politics is a complicated game. The first person to say they understand how it all works is the first person I wouldn’t trust to explain any of it to a third grader.
We’re all making best guesses on almost everthing.
She won’t do shit cause she has to get reelected in four years.
I get that this is not the hill to die on in this meme, but the tracks should really be reversed.
This implies “doing nothing” will only sacrifice Palestine, while “pulling the lever” (i.e. voting) will sacrifice Palestine+all other at risk groups.
Otherwise, this really is a classic trolly dilemma. We can’t stop the train and someone is going to get killed.
This meme also implies that the current US strategy is not to fund Ukraine just enough to take Russia to Hell with it. It also implies the Democrats don’t rely on anti-LGBTQ votes because one single comment made by Waltz. This meme also implies Democrat are pushing laws to combat police brutality (at least fix this at local or state levels in cities where they hold the majority).
The Democrats here now have worse arguments than the tankies.
Kamala literally used to fight for sexual assault victims and such
Walz used to fight for his school kids
Trump bragged on Howard Stern about perving on young girls and is a convicted rapist
You do realize there is both a house and Senate right, and unless they have control of both, they can’t necessarily just push laws. That’s what politics is
And in the past few years, the Republicans have only been interested in sabotage it seems (if Trump loses this election, there is a better chance they will be more willing to work when Democrats)
They’re not relying on this shit. The most commonly cited reason even by Republicans voting for Harris is that Trump is a dictator that wants to ruin the country
Right, and one of the main, basic ways in which one can consider the trolley problem is that, regardless of the difference in outcomes, pulling the lever makes you morally responsible for what happens.
That’s hotly debated by moral philosophers and ethicists.
Also not pulling the lever makes you morally responsible if you “stand by and do nothing”
That’s another way of looking at it
Decisions have consequences, doing nothing is a decision.
ITT: Americans debating whether choosing between “the ONLY two choices they have” is good or bad, completely forgetting revolts exist and completely disregarding their beloved 2nd amendment.
A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Sounds like you aren’t free anymore. You can bitch and moan about only having two choices all you want. If you vote Trump/Kamala/3rd party instead of taking up arms, overthrowing your state government and forcing your state to secede until the elections are changed to no longer be FPTP, then you are tacitly supporting genocide.
But maybe it was really hard to consider such extreme actions. Well, now you know what the anti-genocide choice is. Let’s see if you risk your lives to stop your government from being genocidal fucks, or if you’re gonna do nothing about it because you’ve been completely pacified as a nation and are now unable to even consider fighting against tyrants. If you’ll excuse me, I’m not gonna hold my breath.
ITT: Tankies that think the only solution to a non-utopian outcome is to burn everything to the fucking ground.
ITT: I found a term that allows me to demonize the left, so I can stay comfortably oppressed in the center.
Dwight shrute energy.
If I were American I’d just restart it!
anybody on the left withholding their vote at this point fundamentally disbelieves in a system with exactly two discrete options, so this type of post doesn’t persuade anybody
fundamentally disbelieves in a system with exactly two discrete options
except the polls are exactly about two discrete options. “not believing” in it is like not believing in gravity. it doesn’t make you philosopher, it makes you dumb moron.
Anyone who doesn’t “believe” that we have the system we have is beyond reaching
Yeah I don’t “believe” our system best serves the common good. But I sure as hell will vote for Kamala because it’s very clear that is my best course of action to serve the common good. Voting for a third party won’t lead to a system where more parties have a voice, it will help Trump get into power, where only a single party has a voice, and any other voice will be silenced
You misread, try it again.
Sorry what do you think they meant then?
Believing in something and believing something exists or is a certain state are two very different things.
You can believe that this despotic duopoly exists in such a way that there are only two outcomes, without believing such a system will ever function.
What’s the difference between the first two flags?
Trans flag and the pride flag
Ah, I see. Thanks. I only know the not-a-rainbow one, what’s with the triangles?
No, that’s the progress flag
Intentional divisiveness in an attempt to derail the entire movement, and idiots keep taking the bait.
Trans folks have been getting targeted heavily by the right for years now. They can be represented separately and the overall pride progress flag can also be present considering all of the other groups contained within and what the right says about them as well. Two things can be true without detracting from each other.
You clearly don’t understand the seriousness of the threat posed by fascism. Unity is key. This is not a little game to be played, it’s real life.
First they came for the
I think the flags serve a purpose almost like some form of heraldry when interacting in-group, as a shorthand way to share identity.
But as an outsider, I’m not going to keep track of every variant. I’d prefer there be one generic flag used when presenting to a general audience that is meant to encompass the entirety. And sticking with it. Maybe there already is one that is preferred?
I came to interpret it as more of a general flag for minorities.
Iirc it started to get more traction during the height of the BLM movement around 2020. It’s supposed to include BIPoC into the pride movement.
A rainbow has every color. That’s the whole point, it’s very simple.
Wtf. I’ve never seen so many people annoyed that their fellows are protesting genocide. How do you take a situation like this and make it a fucking trolley meme.
Imagine you’re strapped to an operating table, incapacitated. There are two other people in the room strapped to tables with you.
In walk two psychopaths, let’s call them Al and Bob. They explain to you that they’ve decided to let the three of you choose your fate: Al wants to chop off your right hand, Bob wants to chop off all four of your limbs. They give you five minutes to decide, and then they’ll come back to take a vote, majority decides whether Al or Bob gets their way. If you refuse to vote they’ll flip a coin.
Immediately one of the other victims starts saying how terrible Al is and how horrible it is to chop off someone’s right hand. Non-stop protesting the inhumanity of Al, how important it is to deny Al the opportunity to take your right hand.
For whatever reason they seem oddly quiet on the fact that Bob also wants to take your right hand, and arm, and the left, and both legs. Whenever you try to interject with that fact, they accuse you of being pro-handchopping and how could you even suggest voting for Al the evil handchopper. And now the other victim seems to be taking this anti-Al rhetoric quite seriously.
Would you find that annoying?
I don’t think people are saying you shouldn’t protest the genocide. You should! But it’s stupid to not vote for Harris over it because letting Trump win doesn’t just throw women, LGBTQ people, etc. under the bus, it also makes the genocide of Palestinians even worse.
The original argument was “Both sides are evil/bad and we need to get rid of both.” These Democrats are trolling non-stop. Hopefully, they’ll be gone in a few weeks.
You didn’t even make this meme correctly.
The point of this is that not pulling the lever leads to more dead but pulling the lever leads to less deaths but due to your action of pulling the lever.
Good job?
Thank you for confirming my bias that both sides are indeed the same - I will now proceed accordingly. 😜
/s btw, and damn I wish this was funny. As it is, it feels all too real…😔
Good to see blue MAGA finally admitting they are fascist and evil.
If you seriously think the queer community is supposed to stand on your side, as you actively support genocide, and pretend like they won’t be the next sacrifice needed to SaVe DeMoCrACy….
Lmao
✅ - bLuE mAGa
✅ - geNoCiDe!
✅ - inaccurately attributed fascist accusation
✅ - prediction with nothing to support it
✅ - Lmao
Folks, I believe we have reached socialist bingo!
